Doors opened wrong side at Wigan

[TEW]

I'd hope that the driver can get on with it ASAP. What if he needed to release the doors in the event of an emergency?

Some trains e.g. GA Class 317s don't even have an Emergency Door Release for passenger use on both sides of the train. Not safe IMO.

As is quite common for units of that era, they have emergency door releases at diagonally opposite sets of doors. Even with units that have emergency door releases at every door, it is permissable to have certain doors physically locked out of use, so not every door is always available for emergency escape.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As is quite common for units of that era, they have emergency door releases at diagonally opposite sets of doors. Even with units that have emergency door releases at every door, it is permissable to have certain doors physically locked out of use, so not every door is always available for emergency escape.

Rather better than the PEP EMUs which as built had no emergency door release at all. It was added to the Merseyrail units in about 1998.

 

[The Albion]

Do you mean platform 5?
If the driver has arrived on platform 4 heading north something has gone very wrong.

Apologies, my mistake, it was platform 5

 

[scrapy]

Any wrong side door releases are automatically flagged up by a central monitoring system at Avanti - the same system that enables real-time monitoring of faults on any train in service.
It knows, so I've been told, not by comparing release side with actual platform, as although technically feasible that would be very advanced stuff, but by simply flagging up two door releases in a row on differing sides without any journey between.

That's often a bit of a myth that every mistake by traincrew is picked up in that whilst they can see which side doors are released it doesn't actually say that they are released on the wrong side unless they look for it, nobody is going to be sat there looking which platform every train arrives in and which side the doors are released. So it will more than likely be overlooked, but the data is there in the event of an investigation. As you say it will pick up two quick releases on different sides though.

 

[Taunton]

Rather better than the PEP EMUs which as built had no emergency door release at all. It was added to the Merseyrail units in about 1998.

After they had been in service on Merseyside for around 20 years. A bit surprising as the 1938 Class 503 Wirral units they had replaced in 1978 had always had it.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Something that I always wondered, if a late-runner gets trapped in the doors, I assume it is the driver that has to re-release? Does the guard have to key off first in that case and re-energise the panel once the driver has done his job?

Driver has to re-release because there are no door release buttons on the door control panel. As far as I know, the guard doesn’t have to key off/reenergise panel. Having said that, most panels don’t have a way of contacting the driver so presumably they would need to go back to their office/compartment in which case they would key off for security reasons as oppose to technical/electrical reasons.
On a Class 22x, this is where the microphone by the door comes in handy. As they can just say “please open doors again driver.”

What are the procedures immediately following the wrong side door opening, obviously the driver closes again as soon as aware, but then what?
Track check.
Close adjacent line,
electricity off if appropriate,
Are there rules set in stone for this?

What you have to consider is with a lot of wrong side door releases, the driver realises within a couple of seconds and manages to press the close doors buttons before any doors have opened. Remember that on a Class 390, the step has to extend first so it is a good few seconds before the door actually opens so if you realise as soon as you release the doors, it should be ok (it is still of course an operational incident and will still get put on your record but talking from a safety viewpoint).
If the doors have been open for some time and/or you suspect someone has exited the train, what you’ve said is pretty much spot on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driver has to re-release because there are no door release buttons on the door control panel. As far as I know, the guard doesn’t have to key off/reenergise panel. Having said that, most panels don’t have a way of contacting the driver so presumably they would need to go back to their office/compartment in which case they would key off for security reasons as oppose to technical/electrical reasons.
On a Class 22x, this is where the microphone by the door comes in handy. As they can just say “please open doors again driver.”

According to this thread:

Buzzer codes

Hi all, Does anyone have a list of what the bell/buzzer codes are? I've seen a list on a 377 inside the door panel, but can't remember them. I know 1 is stop, 2 is right away and 9 is emergency but cant remember the rest. taa, James.

www.railforums.co.uk

buzzer code 3-3-1 is "release central door locking", so I assume that would be used in both types of unit?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

According to this thread:

Buzzer codes

Hi all, Does anyone have a list of what the bell/buzzer codes are? I've seen a list on a 377 inside the door panel, but can't remember them. I know 1 is stop, 2 is right away and 9 is emergency but cant remember the rest. taa, James.

www.railforums.co.uk

buzzer code 3-3-1 is "release central door locking", so I assume that would be used in both types of unit?

No, it’s never used and forgot that even it exists until you reminded me. I guess it technically could be used but the guard would always phone you or if they were close enough to the front, they would just knock on your window. To be honest, if a guard did that, I think there would be some very confused drivers
Alternatively, on the Class 22x, the microphone (by the door) and the speaker (in the cab) automatically turns on when the guard puts his/her key in so you can hear everything- e.g. the guard and the customer host having a chat; unfortunately for a lot of customer hosts and some guards, I don’t think many of them realise that we can hear exactly what they’re saying including if they’re having a moan about the driver!
So if the guard wants the doors to be re-released, it’s far easier to just say “Please open doors again driver” rather than having to use the phone or knock on the driver’s door.

On the subject of release central door locking- the Class 180s had something like that which, at least to me, seems like a very bizarre set up. When you stop at a station, I think the driver has to kind of ask permission from the guard before releasing doors. So you would hear a series of buzzes between Driver/guard before the doors are released. I believe it was 2-2 driver to guard and then 2-2 guard to driver and then the driver would release doors. I’m not 100% on this so perhaps someone could shed some light on this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it’s never used and forgot that even it exists until you reminded me. I guess it technically could be used but the guard would always phone you or if they were close enough to the front, they would just knock on your window.

Reminds me of what I've seen a couple of times on Pacers in the North West - guard opens cab door, leans in and shouts "buzz buzz"

(Clearly shouldn't be doing that as it avoids the interlock check, but it was amusing, and years ago when such things were less important)

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Reminds me of what I've seen a couple of times on Pacers in the North West - guard opens cab door, leans in and shouts "buzz buzz"

(Clearly shouldn't be doing that as it avoids the interlock check, but it was amusing, and years ago when such things were less important)

Haha that made laugh. Fortunately, my company is much more professional. We have dispatchers that use party blowers instead of whistles

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haha that made laugh. Fortunately, my company is much more professional. We have dispatchers that use party blowers instead of whistles

I really want to see that

DB crews working LHCS appear to be able to shout to the driver "Abfahren, bitte" if they're near enough to hear, but that's not as much fun

 

[Crossover]

On the subject of release central door locking- the Class 180s had something like that which, at least to me, seems like a very bizarre set up. When you stop at a station, I think the driver has to kind of ask permission from the guard before releasing doors. So you would hear a series of buzzes between Driver/guard before the doors are released. I believe it was 2-2 driver to guard and then 2-2 guard to driver and then the driver would release doors. I’m not 100% on this so perhaps someone could shed some light on this.

I can only comment as a passenger, but I have been stood next to guards on GC 180's on arrival at stations and, as I recall, they don't do anything on station arrival other than open the passenger door as a passenger would

 

[Applepie356]

Not trying to downplay the seriousness of this, but assuming the doors don’t automatically open then surely it can’t be too much of a serious safety incident?

From what I’ve seen passengers gather ‘round the doors they know will open and others follow suit.

 

[43066]

Not trying to downplay the seriousness of this, but assuming the doors don’t automatically open then surely it can’t be too much of a serious safety incident?

From what I’ve seen passengers gather ‘round the doors they know will open and others follow suit.

It’s taken very seriously on the basis that someone could be leaning on the door buttons, or a blind person could end up exiting the train and falling out etc. The risk is very low, in reality, but the railway takes a strict “safety first” approach to this kind of thing.

For the driver/guard involved this would go on their permanent record, which could make it more difficult to move TOCs in future. If they’d had a few incidents it could also mean permanent removal from their role.

 

[miami]

From what I’ve seen passengers gather ‘round the doors they know will open and others follow suit.

Visibility isn't great out of those windows. I've often misjudged which side I'll arrive on at Crewe (where it could be either), and many passengers won't know at all. If I'm doing something more important like reading a book I'll press the open button. Hopefully I'd notice there's no platform there before stepping out.

 

[Intermodal]

Not trying to downplay the seriousness of this, but assuming the doors don’t automatically open then surely it can’t be too much of a serious safety incident?

From what I’ve seen passengers gather ‘round the doors they know will open and others follow suit.

When you assess the risk of any incident then you must consider two things:

1. The likelihood of an accident occuring, and
2. The severity of an accident if it did occur

In this case, the likelihood of someone opening a door and falling out on the wrong side is actually quite low. The majority of people would see that there was no platform there and not step out, even if they did open a door. However - many people are lesser able, poorly sighted, perhaps young or inattentive, and these categories of people may be more likely to open a door and fall out. Should they fall out then the consequences could be very severe - up to death in the worst case. This is why it is considered a very serious incident - the likelihood of an accident is relatively low, but should it happen it would be very severe indeed.

If the member of staff involved in this theoretical situation did release wrong side and a poorly sighted person stepped out and didn't find a platform there to catch them - or worse another train came to meet them - then that member of staff would more than likely find themselves serving time in prison.

 

[miami]

If a door was opened, and a train passed at high speed on the adjacent platform, would it be able to suck people or luggage out?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If a door was opened, and a train passed at high speed on the adjacent platform, would it be able to suck people or luggage out?

Yes.

You only have to think of a Desiro passing a 455 between Raynes Park and Wimbledon - even with just a 30mph speed differential, it pulls all the windows on the 455s shut with a huge slam.

The forces at higher speed differentials would be much greater.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Not a train- But this happened on a tram I was on about 15 years ago in Manchester.
I was on a tram from bury heading to Manchester and the tram used to stop at a staff halt at queens road depot. Instead of the first door on the tram opening it was the second door
that opened which I was leaning against at the time-It was luck that I did not fall out.

 

[broadgage]

It was a Pendolino. I actually stated the departure time from Wolverhampton, but for a reason I don't know why a mod edited my original post.

Presumably because giving full details of time, station, etc. could identify the train crew, which may be prohibited under forum rules, and even if not specifically prohibited seems to me to be poor practice.

 

[Tomnick]

If the member of staff involved in this theoretical situation did release wrong side and a poorly sighted person stepped out and didn't find a platform there to catch them - or worse another train came to meet them - then that member of staff would more than likely find themselves serving time in prison.

What would prison time achieve? No-one sets out to release the doors on the wrong side. Unless there's some evidence of some serious wrongdoing that's led to the mistake being made, I'd suggest that it's far more constructive to look at why it happened and do something to stop someone else making the same mistake, and to look at whether the risk of a wrong-side release was suitably assessed and mitigated against. For starters, I can think of examples where the car stop markers (which will be where most of the driver's attention is focussed as the train comes to a stand) are positioned on the opposite side of the line to the platform...

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would prison time achieve? No-one sets out to release the doors on the wrong side. Unless there's some evidence of some serious wrongdoing that's led to the mistake being made, I'd suggest that it's far more constructive to look at why it happened and do something to stop someone else making the same mistake, and to look at whether the risk of a wrong-side release was suitably assessed and mitigated against. For starters, I can think of examples where the car stop markers (which will be where most of the driver's attention is focussed as the train comes to a stand) are positioned on the opposite side of the line to the platform...

They are at MKC P6, and presumably as a result are accompanied with a "right hand door release" sign.

 

[Trackman]

Not trying to downplay the seriousness of this, but assuming the doors don’t automatically open then surely it can’t be too much of a serious safety incident?

Makes me thing about 20 years ago at Wilmslow, the West Coast and indeed VT Mk3's with door locking would be released on the platform but I think the rear 2 carriages were not on the platform. There were signs saying 'Do not alight here'.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I was on a Northern Train about 15 years ago travelling between Manchester Victoria & Wigan Wallgate on one of the evening services.

There was an issue with one of the doors not closing properly and the guard made the decision to turf everyone off the train at Salford Crescent.

I did think it was overkill at the time, but overkill or not - safety is safety and the guard was being very robust. I have noticed over the years that the doors on the old pacer units are very temperamental.

CJ

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was chucked off a Cambrian Coast train at Harlech for the same reason ages ago. Buses were put on, but given the nature of repute (or lack thereof) and the standard of driving (or lack thereof) you get from small rural Welsh bus companies (I remember the journey photographically, it was on a breadvan minibus all the way to Shrewsbury as it missed the connection at Mach, and it was driven on the limiter pretty much the whole way), I am certain that we would have been vastly safer staying on the train and just being asked to stay out of the vestibules due to the lack of interlock[1], and the unit being swapped at Mach.

[1] There weren't many of us, perhaps we should have been moved into one coach and the guard stood watch that we didn't leave the saloon. The problem was the interlock having to be isolated, the guard told me.

 

[Intermodal]

What would prison time achieve? No-one sets out to release the doors on the wrong side. Unless there's some evidence of some serious wrongdoing that's led to the mistake being made, I'd suggest that it's far more constructive to look at why it happened and do something to stop someone else making the same mistake, and to look at whether the risk of a wrong-side release was suitably assessed and mitigated against. For starters, I can think of examples where the car stop markers (which will be where most of the driver's attention is focussed as the train comes to a stand) are positioned on the opposite side of the line to the platform...

If we are talking about a theoretical situation where someone had died as a result of the doors being released wrong side then it would achieve justice for the injured party in a case where someone who had made a criminally negligent mistake.

The person releasing the doors is trained, extensively, on how to recognise the correct side to release them on. If they failed to take account of their training and experience and didn't take due care when completing the task and as a result someone died then it would be a criminal matter.

I completely see what you are saying regarding "what would it achieve?" - it wouldn't achieve anything for the company, or for the staff member involved - but by saying they should not go to jail you are basically arguing against any sort of involuntary manslaughter charge. The fact is that it would be involuntary manslaughter, and punishment exists for such actions in our society.

Do you think the guard at James St intended to cause the death of that young girl? Absolutely not. Did he go to prison? Yes he did.

 

[Tomnick]

If we are talking about a theoretical situation where someone had died as a result of the doors being released wrong side then it would achieve justice for the injured party in a case where someone who had made a criminally negligent mistake.

The person releasing the doors is trained, extensively, on how to recognise the correct side to release them on. If they failed to take account of their training and experience and didn't take due care when completing the task and as a result someone died then it would be a criminal matter.

I completely see what you are saying regarding "what would it achieve?" - it wouldn't achieve anything for the company, or for the staff member involved - but by saying they should not go to jail you are basically arguing against any sort of involuntary manslaughter charge. The fact is that it would be involuntary manslaughter, and punishment exists for such actions in our society.

Do you think the guard at James St intended to cause the death of that young girl? Absolutely not. Did he go to prison? Yes he did.

The accident at James St was different. The Guard made a conscious decision to give the ‘ready to start’ signal when it wasn’t safe to do so, and had already deviated from the approved dispatch process. A wrong side release is more likely to be a momentary lapse - the sort of thing that can happen to anyone. It’s easy to say “take due care”, but when it’s a repetitive task that drivers are undertaking anything up to a hundred times a day, human nature dictates that someone will get it wrong at some point, and it’s for the management to recognise that risk and introduce appropriate mitigation.

Look at the example of the signalman at Moreton-on-Lugg. He made a mistake, replacing the protecting signal to danger and raising the barriers with a train approaching at speed, and a road user was killed as a result. The signalman received some community service and a relatively small fine. Network Rail were heavily criticised, and received a much harsher penalty, because their systems allowed him to make the mistake.

 

[Intermodal]

The accident at James St was different. The Guard made a conscious decision to give the ‘ready to start’ signal when it wasn’t safe to do so, and had already deviated from the approved dispatch process. A wrong side release is more likely to be a momentary lapse - the sort of thing that can happen to anyone. It’s easy to say “take due care”, but when it’s a repetitive task that drivers are undertaking anything up to a hundred times a day, human nature dictates that someone will get it wrong at some point, and it’s for the management to recognise that risk and introduce appropriate mitigation.

Look at the example of the signalman at Moreton-on-Lugg. He made a mistake, replacing the protecting signal to danger and raising the barriers with a train approaching at speed, and a road user was killed as a result. The signalman received some community service and a relatively small fine. Network Rail were heavily criticised, and received a much harsher penalty, because their systems allowed him to make the mistake.

Completely fair comments - I think this is about as far as the conversation can go in a theoretical manner. What exactly happened would obviously depend on the exact circumstances but you are right about it most likely being a momentary lapse.

 

[miami]

The accident at James St was different. The Guard made a conscious decision to give the ‘ready to start’ signal when it wasn’t safe to do so, and had already deviated from the approved dispatch process. A wrong side release is more likely to be a momentary lapse - the sort of thing that can happen to anyone. It’s easy to say “take due care”, but when it’s a repetitive task that drivers are undertaking anything up to a hundred times a day, human nature dictates that someone will get it wrong at some point, and it’s for the management to recognise that risk and introduce appropriate mitigation.

It feels like a similar argument for people who cause injury and/or death while driving. People make mistakes all the time, those mistakes kill hundreds of people a year, but those making the mistakes rarely go to prison.

 

[py_megapixel]

On modern units with ASDO, does that system actually prevent a wrong side release? I understand these systems work by authorising doors to open, and I would assume that doors on the wrong side wouldn't be authorised