Draft IEP Train Layouts

[rail-britain]

Looks like this Press Release was overlooked :
http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/draft-iep-train-layouts/

(Normal Density)
I am rather disappointed by the First Class seating layout, compared to the HST they are replacing
With just one table of 2 per coach, the remaining single seats are all airline style
There is also quite a lack of luggage stacks

An unusual option is the replacement of one toilet by a trolley facility in the M1e vehicle

 

[jimm]

Not a press release - otherwise it would have been noticed by anyone on DfT's mailing list. They've just stuck it on their page of IEP info, which, in finest DfT tradition, doesn't actually have links to any of their recent announcements on the subject.

First class layout probably based on an assessment of ticket purchasing patterns - based on what happens at my local GW station, most people going first on weekdays are travelling alone, so providing a decent number of solo seats, with a table big enough for a laptop and papers, without bumping into those of someone sitting opposite, probably makes sense.

Trolley store seems pointless. The ones installed on FGW HSTs during the refresh programme were soon abandoned with the development of the mini-buffet and presumably all the fresh food will be delivered to the kitchen area, where there will be fridges/drinking water supplies, etc

Pleasantly surprised by the layouts, which have a better proportion of tables in standard than an FGW high-density HST, while packing in plenty of seats. To be hoped there are rather more sets in this style than high-density variants, though I fear the worst option is bound to be chosen for standard class on most trains, whoever gets the franchise.

 

[Stats]

Oh no, it's the Voyager all over again. Where is the Buffet car? Completely inadequate luggage storage. :-x

 

[jimm]

Oh no, it's the Voyager all over again. Where is the Buffet car? Completely inadequate luggage storage. :-x

Think you'll find with a low window line that the overhead racks will actually take some pretty hefty pieces of luggage. Note the space between the racks and roof in this Class 395 interior http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File:Ebbsfleet International railway station MMB 01 395018.jpg/-/en

Most people are far more interested in getting a comfortable seat with decent legroom than whether there is a 'buffet car'. And if said buffet is anything like a Voyager or Pendolino 'shop' why bother?

 

[Rich McLean]

Not having a buffet car/counter is a big mistake there I think, along with the lack of luggage racks

 

[ainsworth74]

It should be noted that these are draft layouts and the final ones might well be somewhat different as the TOCs are being consulted for the final details.

Personally I quite like what I'm seeing here but I do think the lack of a small buffet counter is a mistake.

 

[317666]

If the marks on the coach sides are what I think they are, then they don't appear to line up with the windows either. As someone else said, Voyager all over again...

 

[Yew]

I think it could be useful to have some more airline pairs of seats, if we arent having tables of 2 on the +1 side of first. Hopefully some sort of Microbuffet will be included in the final design? Possibly with room for the trolley underthe conter or something, to add flexibility.


Overall I think its looking quite good, I think I am actually looking forward to the IEP, but its a shame there isnt a 'mock up' carriage or something to have a look into, and raise any concerns

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully we will see a buffet counter installed when the operators decide which layouts they want and I suspect Mr Roger Ford is already going through this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Overall I think its looking quite good, I think I am actually looking forward to the IEP, but its a shame there isnt a 'mock up' carriage or something to have a look into, and raise any concerns

I agree perhap Hitachi could build a mock up in Japan and ship it over here or even better build a prototype 5 carriage unit showing the different layouts being offered.

 

[jimm]

If the marks on the coach sides are what I think they are, then they don't appear to line up with the windows either. As someone else said, Voyager all over again...

No, it's pretty much every express train since the Mk3 took to the rails in the 1970s, when the seats and windows didn't line up in second class. That caused a fuss at the time (and lots of mk3s running today have seats next to a bit of bodywork, despite the widespread belief that they are the greatest thing that ever took to the rails in Britain). And IEP doesn't have a tilt-profile body encroaching on interior space, so that's a bonus, whatever the seating layout.

These are only draft indicative layouts. The GW franchise documents make clear the final layouts and formations are up for discussion with the winner of the new franchise.

And will someone please go beyond bald statements about how it should have a buffet? Why? Some people clearly like them, others prefer a trolley coming to their seat, or, if they bought food and drink at a station before boarding, couldn't really care.

FGW like buffets, having done a u-turn over trolleys on HSTs, but that would probably mean some sets are left without a kitchen, to compensate for seats lost to a buffet. Will that upset the people who believe all trains should have a silver service restaurant car?

Hitachi CGI video with interior images of very truncated coaches here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeddoFChmm8&feature=context-cha

 

[starrymarkb]

I've also noticed that seats at the end of the vehicles are next to the door pockets so will be narrower and have no view. There also seem to be very few toilets
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, it's pretty much every express train since the Mk3 took to the rails in the 1970s, when the seats and windows didn't line up in second class. That caused a fuss at the time (and lots of mk3s running today have seats next to a bit of bodywork, despite the widespread belief that they are the greatest thing that ever took to the rails in Britain). And IEP doesn't have a tilt-profile body encroaching on interior space, so that's a bonus, whatever the seating layout.

158s were the only recent BR build stock that had alignment in standard (but not in the retrofitted first that )

 

[jimm]

I've also noticed that seats at the end of the vehicles are next to the door pockets so will be narrower and have no view. There also seem to be very few toilets

The nine-car IEP has 12 toilets. This seating plan from the most customer-friendly, charitable intercity operator known to mankind shows an 11-car pendolino has nine toilets http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

Lose coaches F and U and a nine-car 390 has seven toilets.

Even the mystery eight-car IEP (where has this come from?) has 10 toilets

The Virgin plan also shows a five-car Voyager has four toilets. The five-car IEP has five.

 

[starrymarkb]

The nine-car IEP has 12 toilets. This seating plan from the most customer-friendly, charitable intercity operator known to mankind shows an 11-car pendolino has nine toilets http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

Lose coaches F and U and a nine-car 390 has seven toilets.

Even the mystery eight-car IEP (where has this come from?) has 10 toilets

The Virgin plan also shows a five-car Voyager has four toilets. The five-car IEP has five.

Ah I see, I was looking at the 2 adjacent coaches with no toilets in the 9 car formation...

 

[ainsworth74]

And will someone please go beyond bald statements about how it should have a buffet? Why? Some people clearly like them, others prefer a trolley coming to their seat, or, if they bought food and drink at a station before boarding, couldn't really care.

The lack of a buffet means that for standard class passengers there will be absolutely no hot food. By which I don't mean a silver service restaurant but something as simple as a hot panini or baguette, something which I think more than a few passengers would probably like to have available to them. Personally that's all I want from a buffet, there is no need for it to have a full kitchen (when that will be in the DPTF vehicle) simply a counter with a microwave or oven of some sort will suffice and those kinds of buffet don't take up very much room.

 

[150001]

I'm sure if First win the bid which they could; then they would specify a buffet. This isn't final so if a TOC wants a buffet, then they can.

 

[rail-britain]

I think it could be useful to have some more airline pairs of seats, if we arent having tables of 2 on the +1 side of first

There are already mostly single airline seats in first, each coach only has one single table for 2
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even the mystery eight-car IEP (where has this come from?) has 10 toilets

The contract is for the 5 and 9 coach versions
The original plan (June 2010) was also for an 8 coach version, but this has since been dumped
The 8 coach version was a purely electric version

The revised plan still includes an option for the 8 coach version
The 9 coach version would then be used on the East Coast (see below) and both the 8 and 9 coach version on the Great Western
The spare coach would then be used to lengthen some of the 9 coach sets to 10 coach sets, on the East Coast

 

[Lampshade]

Hope they don't end up filling the train with oversized toilets a la the Voyagers.

 

[All Line Rover]

Not this partition coach again. :roll: The 5-car train should be 6-car, with two First Class carriages. The 9-car train should have three First Class carriages, not 2.5. (It's not two and three full-size First Class carriages anyway, as the First Class end car has a remarkably large Pendolino-style kitchen).

The whole "partition coach" idea ruins First Class for me. I pay extra to "escape" Standard Class. I don't get that if I'm sitting in a partition coach with the same level of noise as Standard Class (coming from the Standard Class section of the coach) and Standard Class passengers passing through to get to the toilet / looking in all the time (aka TPE, but which is acceptable for a commuter franchise).

These draft plans look very much like a Meridian but with all of the catering facilities moved to the First Class end car. A very bad idea in my opinion.

 

[Erniescooper]

I was wondering if the "e" in the MeS and MeC coach designation stood for engine. If that were the case it looks like the 9 car would end up with 5 engines, 4 engines in the 8 car and 3 engines in the 5 car. The MeS car next to the DPTS looks like the car that will permenently have an engine as all the other cars with an e can be MeS/MS and MeC/MC. Does that sound right?

 

[Yew]

There are already mostly single airline seats in first, each coach only has one single table for 2

I meant on the '2' side, with soem tables of four swapped for four airline seats, so groups of two can sit together.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hope they don't end up filling the train with oversized toilets a la the Voyagers.

Have you not bothered looking at the linked document then? If you had you wouldn't be writing that...

 

[rail-britain]

I meant on the '2' side, with soem tables of four swapped for four airline seats, so groups of two can sit together.

Have you tried the dual airline seats in a Class 390?
They really don't work, it's like sitting in a parcel

 

[WatcherZero]

Looks like the seats do pretty much line up with the windows, theres no seats completely blocked and when the seat would have better window access from facing the opposite way it does.

Kitchen on the 9th car and trolley on the second car in 9 car formation. In five car formation kitchen in the fifth car and trolley in the second car. (Im presuming thats a kitchen? could be a shop)

 

[ainsworth74]

(Im presuming thats a kitchen? could be a shop)

Has to be a kitchen surely? Why would anyone put a shop at the far end of the train and at the same end as first class is located?

 

[WatcherZero]

That was my reasoning. im just surprised the five car version has such a large dedicated kitchen.

But as said before these are just the default layouts before Tocs get their hands on them.

 

[Lampshade]

Have you not bothered looking at the linked document then? If you had you wouldn't be writing that...

Yes I have, the critical word being draft :roll:

 

[Yew]

Not this partition coach again. :roll: The 5-car train should be 6-car, with two First Class carriages. The 9-car train should have three First Class carriages, not 2.5. (It's not two and three full-size First Class carriages anyway, as the First Class end car has a remarkably large Pendolino-style kitchen).

The whole "partition coach" idea ruins First Class for me. I pay extra to "escape" Standard Class. I don't get that if I'm sitting in a partition coach with the same level of noise as Standard Class (coming from the Standard Class section of the coach) and Standard Class passengers passing through to get to the toilet / looking in all the time (aka TPE, but which is acceptable for a commuter franchise).

These draft plans look very much like a Meridian but with all of the catering facilities moved to the First Class end car. A very bad idea in my opinion.

Hopefully they will have a devent set of doors and partition, labelled as first, instead of the bit of glass they have on meridians

 

[WatcherZero]

Anyone know what the grill like thing is between the door and first large window? looks like a vertical window.

 

[starrymarkb]

Anyone know what the grill like thing is between the door and first large window? looks like a vertical window.

The Dashed bold line? Door Pockets (suspect there won't be a window..)

 

[jimm]

Yes I have, the critical word being draft :roll:

Yes, it's a draft, but why on earth would you think that someone would then decide to add lots of disabled toilets, when it is pretty much universally recognised that putting so many in Voyagers was a mistake? A mistake that was not made when the Meridians followed the Voyagers down the production line and was not repeated in Virgin's own Pendolinos.

The contract is for the 5 and 9 coach versions
The original plan (June 2010) was also for an 8 coach version, but this has since been dumped
The 8 coach version was a purely electric version

The revised plan still includes an option for the 8 coach version
The 9 coach version would then be used on the East Coast (see below) and both the 8 and 9 coach version on the Great Western
The spare coach would then be used to lengthen some of the 9 coach sets to 10 coach sets, on the East Coast

I know what the DfT announcement said, I know there is some room for flexibility in the GW ITT, but why bother, a month after stating the official position to be five-car and nine-car formations, putting up a drawing for an eight-car train? It could just be a mistake by someone, but given that the drawing was revised as recently as April, it suggests the abandonment of this version was at the very last moment. And it is marked "eight car electric and bi-mode".