Driver forgot to stop at station - what about signals?

[deanparkr]

I was on a SWT from Bmouth to London and wanted to get off at New Milton.. but the driver forgot to stop and went past at zooming pace.

I wonder about the signal.. surely the signal would have been red ?

What happens when drivers go through red signals?

How does things like "junctions" work when there are like track changes to make if the train is early and has passed a red signal?

Just wondered oh wise people!

 

[Nym]

Depends on the signaler if they're doing assistive signaling or not (where they set false reds at stations) but they know (usualy) if the're coming on the screens early and just set the route soit's all on the driver to stop in them circumstances

 

[1D53]

Could have been an automatic signal or the signals could have been set in advance, both normal practises.

 

[16CSVT2700]

I was on a SWT from Bmouth to London and wanted to get off at New Milton.. but the driver forgot to stop and went past at zooming pace.

I wonder about the signal.. surely the signal would have been red ?
Well no, most likely the signals are automatic signals so they reset themselves to green once the train has passed through the required amount of sections.

What happens when drivers go through red signals?
The emergency brake is applied and brings the train to a halt, and I believe there is a Signal Passed At Danger indicator on PSB/IECC/SC panels. Drivers also have to telephone the SCC/IECC/PSB to report the incident.

How does things like "junctions" work when there are like track changes to make if the train is early and has passed a red signal?
The majority of routes are set in advance of the train so if the train is early there shouldn't be a problem. Other diverging routes dependant on their speed restrictions can be set using Approach Control measures which can either slow the train down or stop them completely while the junction changes the route.

Just wondered oh wise people!

HTH

 

[Metroland]

There is no requirement to hold signals at danger at station platforms normally, other than for traffic reasons IE to reduce conflicting moves during crossing movements or regulating another train in front.

It is up to the driver to know where to stop.

SPADs are a serious incident, and drivers 'at risk' would need to be taken off duty and interviewed. Most SPADs are minor, especially with TPWS, but clearly a major one can result in a collision.

 

[Up Carriage Liner]

Not every station is equipped with an end-of-platform signal.

There is a rule book provision that if a train overshoots a station by no more than 400 metres, then, with the signaller's authority and a number of other conditions being met, that the train can set back. This can arise during leaf-fall season when unusually poor rail adhesion is encountered.

However, the incident described at the start of this discussion sounds like the driver simply forgot that a stop at New Milton was booked. Ooops!

 

[O L Leigh]

What's this "assistive signalling"? This is the second time I've seen it mentioned on this forum, but I've never come across it on the railway. I think that this is something that someone on here has just thought up.

Sticking a red at the end of every platform just to remind the driver to stop is impractical and unsafe. For one thing, a large number of signals are automatic and, provided the signal section ahead is not occupied, will show a "proceed" aspect no matter what. Where there are controlled signals it is possible to hold it at red, but this is not done without cause.

From a driver's perspective, holding the platform starter signal at red to remind the driver to make a booked stop is a big no-no. For one thing it would be a SPAD trap. We have a number of stations where the stop board is right up on the peg. Slide past even just a bit and you'd be compounding a station overrun with a SPAD. There have also been a number of SPAD's where the traincrew have allowed themselves to become distracted by their station duties and set off through the platform starter when it was being held at danger.

The other effect it would have would be to shoot the timetable to pieces. I might hit a platform at 30-35mph and stop on the board without problem, but I'd be going a damn sight slower if the signal at the end was a red. Imagine what that would do to an Enfield Town trip with 14 stops spaced an average of 2 minutes apart. You'd be creeping around on single yellows and reds the entire way.

Sorry, but "assistive signalling" just doesn't happen. Every driver has a schedule book or card showing the stopping pattern of the train together with the altered workings which shows any amendments. It's down to the driver to check the pattern and remember to stop where booked. However, we're only human so mistakes do happen, and none of us are above making them.

With regard to early-running trains, the signaller can regulate the progress of trains, for example to ensure that the running order across junctions is preserved. Quite simply, if you get there ahead of your time, you wait at the junction signal until it's your turn. Likewise, it's common for the signaller to use controlled crossings to regulate early-running trains. Again, you'd get held at the last signal before the crossing until he/she's ready for you.

As for drivers having SPAD's, you'd be taken off the road, medscreened and be scheduled for tea and biscuits with your manager. Every SPAD is investigated to find out what the cause was and what can be learned, which may result in changes to in-cab procedures or alterations to the infrastructure.

O L Leigh

 

[driver9000]

What's this "assistive signalling"? This is the second time I've seen it mentioned on this forum, but I've never come across it on the railway. I think that this is something that someone on here has just thought up.

O L Leigh

Totally agree with OL Leigh in his post, Ive never heard of assistive signalling either, it wouldnt be very good practice to implement either.

We do have track approach signals at certain junctions, normally where there is a huge reduction in speed (ie 75mph on the Main, 30mph through the junction). This works with the signal being held at danger until the train occupies a track circuit a set distance in rear of the signal causing the signal to change to a proceed aspect. However these too can become a SPAD trap by the driver developing an excpectation of the signal clearing and approaching too fast and the signalman needing to stop the train and holding the signal at danger. On the lines I work over we have a few of this type of signal, and I try to keep in my head that its red until I can physically see the signal at proceed.

 

[Metroland]

LOL yes assistive signalling has been made up. I see a lot of that and find it mildly amusing. I note with the advent of train simulators people have started using US terms, such as 'dispatcher', which is the US name for Signalman (or Signaller in PC speak).

 

[33056]

What's this "assistive signalling" then :???:, never heard of it. The only thing we are always told is to clear signals whenever possible as it reduces the SPAD risk, though that is not always possible of course.

It sounds like your driver just forgot to stop for some reason, it is not down to the signalman to try and remind every driver which stations he is supposed to call at.

 

[Nym]

What's this "assistive signalling"? This is the second time I've seen it mentioned on this forum, but I've never come across it on the railway. I think that this is something that someone on here has just thought up.

O L Leigh

It's somthing I just made up...

 

[TheSlash]

I was on a SWT from Bmouth to London and wanted to get off at New Milton.. but the driver forgot to stop and went past at zooming pace.

Ah, i heard about this on the Jungle Telegraph, the driver is known to TheSlash. I can't say alot about it but to cut along story short, he hasn't gotten away with it

 

[CosherB]

We do have track approach signals at certain junctions, normally where there is a huge reduction in speed (ie 75mph on the Main, 30mph through the junction). This works with the signal being held at danger until the train occupies a track circuit a set distance in rear of the signal causing the signal to change to a proceed aspect. However these too can become a SPAD trap by the driver developing an excpectation of the signal clearing and approaching too fast and the signalman needing to stop the train and holding the signal at danger. On the lines I work over we have a few of this type of signal, and I try to keep in my head that its red until I can physically see the signal at proceed.

It was 'approach control' that lulled the driver of a Euston - Manchester (via Stoke) train into going though a red at Colwich junction in the mid '80s. It was a 'real' red, not an 'approach control' red, so it didn't clear as he expected and he overran it.

His loco came to rest on the crossing of the up fast line from Crewe, where a Liverpool - Euston express (which the red was protecting) was approaching at 100mph. The unfortunate driver of that train was killed (the errant driver of the Manchester train jumped out of the cab just before the collision).

CS

 

[Tomnick]

Nearly, but not quite - the accident was caused by the driver's misunderstanding of how the signalling worked, rather than wrongly anticipating that a signal would clear. The driver received, on approach to the Down Fast - Down Slow crossover, flashing YY, flashing Y, and finally Y with pos'n 4 junction indicator. His understanding of the new signalling at Colwich was that the flashing yellow sequence guaranteed him a route right through the layout - and the signal protecting the aforementioned crossover would normally clear up to a green on approach.

Of course, on this occasion, the following signal - that protecting the crossing of the Up Fast line - was maintained at danger, and the signal in rear remained at single yellow. The driver didn't realise this until it was too late - and came to a stand on the crossing, as you say.

 

[deanparkr]

Ah

Thanks for the input!

I might have a look at the signals and see if they are red at NM when trains approach. I wasnt sure if they are or not.

I guess it must have been yellow or something otherwise as you say, the train should have stopped.

 

[1D53]

You can tell if a signal is automatic as it will have a white stripe 'marker' on the signal number plate.

 

[LAX54]

Ah

Thanks for the input!

I might have a look at the signals and see if they are red at NM when trains approach. I wasnt sure if they are or not.

I guess it must have been yellow or something otherwise as you say, the train should have stopped.

Hi all, ummm first time here


Keeping signals at red would be these days counted as a SPAD trap! and the 440yd set back rule, seems to have vanished from the rule book in December, by the way 'Setting back' will no longer apply after June, it will now be "Returning in the wrong direction" seems 'setting back' was open to confusion !!!

 

[Respite]

What's this "assistive signalling"? This is the second time I've seen it mentioned on this forum, but I've never come across it on the railway. I think that this is something that someone on here has just thought up.

As you say fella it's not something that should be used but I do get it everynow & then. Some signalmen seem to think that when I'm on one of the local request stop service, that holding there signals at danger will help me tell if there are passengers to pick up at the station at their signalbox. In reality all it does is add an extra chance of spading & messes up my braking pattern for that station. Basically I'm now judging My braking on the signal locations & more of My time is spent on that than looking at the platform for passengers to stop for.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

the platform signals at Northallerton (York IECC) are usually on red, so you can tell if a train is due as they change! All the signals either side seem to be autos, Ive been on the platforms an a train has gone through, the platform sig has remained on red even though the ones after have cleared to green... Northallerton does have junctions North and South of the platforms though.

 

[Metroland]

Yep, they would be controlled signals. Automatic route setting does try and keep 2 green ahead of booked trains, but it has been known to hold trains if 1) they are early 2) it requires TRTS from the platform staff.