Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

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wigwamman

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hi everyone
its my first post on here so hello,just a question on how easy or costly do you think it would be to install doo on different networks,would it be for instance easy on merseyrail and difficult on say arriva wales,i have a vested intrest as im a conductor but without getting into all the polotics of the matter how long in your opinions does the grade have left.
would new stock be needed,station upgrades be done etc.
 
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krisk

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Won't happen. People like to see staff on trains. What happens when things go wrong?

There's a possibility on short distance regional routes but not after that.
 

Monty

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hi everyone
its my first post on here so hello,just a question on how easy or costly do you think it would be to install doo on different networks,would it be for instance easy on merseyrail and difficult on say arriva wales,i have a vested intrest as im a conductor but without getting into all the polotics of the matter how long in your opinions does the grade have left.
would new stock be needed,station upgrades be done etc.
Depends on the attitudes of the companies involved, at SWT I'm quite fortunate that Brian Souter likes having guards on his trains. I can see guards on the South Western for some time to come, so long as we don't do anything stupid and Stagecoach get a new franchise in five years time.

Can't speak for other TOCs, but some seem to love it others hate it.
 

Aictos

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To be honest, I think DOO would be preferred by some but any move to introduce any more would result in strong action against it by the RMT.

I'm not a fan of DOO as I feel that the DOO routes should be converted to the SPT model and have a driver responsible for the train and a ticket examiner responsible for checking and selling tickets.

This is better as it improves visibility of on-board staff to the passengers and also means that in times of disruption, there's a second member of staff rather then the solo member of staff being left to fend for themselves.

Routes which have guards on them should be left alone to potter on.
 

ushawk

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Most of the DOO routes in the South work and i cant see it being expanded on. Only route that i think needs guards is Thameslink, although having guards would cost a hell of a lot.
 

Pugland53

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I think it will come in sooner rather than later. It has certainly been discussed a lot at work. They won't get rid of guards, they will be 'downgraded' to ticket examiners but will no longer be safety critical positions. Arriva's Sprinters and Pacers already have the buttons in cabs to arm the doors so that won't be a problem. I for one would be against such moves, I enjoy working with guards and believe they are vital for the safe running of the railway. I would happily turn down a large pay rise to go DOO, I would rather things stay as they are.
 

Cherry_Picker

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It will happen eventually, all new stock appears to be suitable for DOO work.
GSM-R being implemented nationally removes some safety reasons for having a guard on board. The McNulty report is pushing for it.

As for where and when it will happen? Well, how long is a piece of string? It will be a long time before we see another line go DOO though, I'd think even if plans to make one were announced completely out of the blue tomorrow then it would be years before the first DOO train ran along it. Most, if not all guards roles have got decades left in them in my opinion.
 

CarterUSM

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Paisley Canal line going DOO on completion of electrification , this December or thereabouts, already been agreed with RMT. Compensation to Guards is 5 extra services a day between Central and Edinburgh(North Berwick?) making it more or less an hourly service until, I assume 1514? I'd expect the rest of the remaining Strathclyde suburban routes to follow, whenever they're wired up.
 

ainsworth74

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DOO is only widely supported by the bean counters and fare dodgers.
Depends on how it's implemented. If it's purely DOO with no on train staff apart from the odd RPI check then I would not support it (apart from high intensity metro style operations). If it's DOO but retaining a ticket examiner who is purely responsible for selling tickets and customer service then I wouldn't really have a problem with it.
 

starrymarkb

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I could see DOO on some self contained branches*. In Switzerland the line between Meiringen and Innertkirchen is DOO, at stations the driver collects fares at the door to the railcar as passengers board.

Out of interest what is the difference between a guard and ticket collector? Maybe have the TC trained in emergency procedures much like air stewards?

*I'm thinking Liskeard to Looe or similar lines which see a single 153 and are isolated from the mainline.
 

Scotrail84

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No more doo, cutting jobs costs lives. I fear it may try to get pushed in when Edinburgh to Glasgow queen street get wired.
 

Flange Squeal

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at SWT I'm quite fortunate that Brian Souter likes having guards on his trains. I can see guards on the South Western for some time to come, so long as we don't do anything stupid and Stagecoach get a new franchise in five years time.
Are you new by any chance? I don't believe he likes having guards on trains any more than conductors on buses (how many of them exist these days.....). More a case of 'a guard on every train' being written into the franchise spec/a point written in to help win the franchise. With the current franchise due to end in 2017 and the McNumpty report recommending DOO and listing it's potential 'savings', there's absolutely no reason why it would be written into the next franchise specification or voluntarily put into a future Stagecoach bid. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I wouldn't get too comfy if I was you. Recent(ish) company days talking about why guards "need to justify their jobs if they want to keep the grade going" should've been a slight hint....
 

Lrd

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Out of interest what is the difference between a guard and ticket collector? Maybe have the TC trained in emergency procedures much like air stewards?
A guard is responsible for pretty much anything to do with the passengers, they do the doors, check tickets, sort out reservations, fix things in the coaches, help passengers during disruption.

A ticket collecter just does tickets, the driver does the doors.
 

Monty

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Are you new by any chance? I don't believe he likes having guards on trains any more than conductors on buses (how many of them exist these days.....). More a case of 'a guard on every train' being written into the franchise spec/a point written in to help win the franchise. With the current franchise due to end in 2017 and the McNumpty report recommending DOO and listing it's potential 'savings', there's absolutely no reason why it would be written into the next franchise specification or voluntarily put into a future Stagecoach bid. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I wouldn't get too comfy if I was you. Recent(ish) company days talking about why guards "need to justify their jobs if they want to keep the grade going" should've been a slight hint....
I've been with the company for a number of years.. Allow me to rephrase myself he likes guards on his trains when they are doing their job properly. You know and I know there are plenty in the grade that are content to sit middle cab and do very little. Hence why at company days we're being asked to justify our jobs (which i think is fear mongering and wrong). Now I am not naive enough to think our jobs are safe, however if we do it right our chances are far greater than say with Go-Ahead or National Express.
 

gswindale

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My view, purely from a passenger point of view, is that on certain services it is not immediately obvious that there is a Guard on the train.

All I see is the driver and the doors opening/closing at stations. No sign of any other members of staff on the teain.

I accept that the suburban nature of the SWT network makes it complicated and that the door controls are often in the cab, but if roles were changed so that Drivers were responsible for operating the doors and the Guards had a more visible role, then passenger safety would be improved.

Simply being told that the "train manager" can be found in the middle of train is not much use when you've got a bunch of drunk yobbos in carriage 2 or 7.

The onboard staff need to be more visible.
 

wigwamman

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I'm not familiar wit swt infrastructure,what work would need to be done to make doo possible,also for myself at Northern I think the cost of the upgrade would require a franchise of much longer than the mooted 12 years for a company to get their investment back,I think merseyrail is ripe for doo apart from the tunnels,as it is self contained quite modern system and all stations are staffed as well,I hope I'm wrong as I wouldn't like to see staff lose jobs but feel its inevitable in the mid to long term,also in regards to downgrading gaurds to ticket inspectors then training them in the safety aspects of evacuation and emergencys that is the role of the gaurd is it not, wich would make them a gaurd again.
 

Monty

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My view, purely from a passenger point of view, is that on certain services it is not immediately obvious that there is a Guard on the train.

All I see is the driver and the doors opening/closing at stations. No sign of any other members of staff on the teain.

I accept that the suburban nature of the SWT network makes it complicated and that the door controls are often in the cab, but if roles were changed so that Drivers were responsible for operating the doors and the Guards had a more visible role, then passenger safety would be improved.

Simply being told that the "train manager" can be found in the middle of train is not much use when you've got a bunch of drunk yobbos in carriage 2 or 7.

The onboard staff need to be more visible.
On the 444/450s and 455s the guard can release the doors from any coach in the train (SDO stops excepted). It's only the 458's currently that you are restricted to the cab, however that is set to change when they are rebuilt. We are also expected to step out of the train before releasing the doors. In my opinion though the driver has enough on his plate as it is, the doors should remain the guards responsibility.
 

oversteer

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I think you'd probably have to consider the type of route too .. if it's mainly commuters within a PF area, I would think DOO would be inevitable.

eg. Chiltern south of Banbury is DOO; if this can be done what stops, say, London Midland making some of their services DOO ? eg. Milton Keynes-Euston, Tring-Euston services. I know LM Desiros sets are usually longer but ultimately if the platforms are set up for it and it can be done "safely" (however the suits define that) then they will push for it.
 

exile

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There is already DOO on
- nearly all buses
- most trams (not West Midland)
- London Underground
- some National Rail services
- many other rail operations throughout the world

That doesn't mean that each case shouldn't be considered on its merits - and in the case of our local services I suspect revenue collection would drop to almost zero if DOO was introduced without some alternative (TVMs and travelling RPIs etc) but I don't think it can be ruled out for ever in all circumstances.
 

Matt Taylor

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I cannot see any justification for non-commercial guards on SWT in the next franchise, commercial guards will probably remain but will unlikely to be responsible for opening train doors although closing doors may still be part of the job (like EMT and SN). Removing commercial guards entirely would be a little foolish given the reductions seen recently in ticket office, barrier and revenue staff.
 

paul1609

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To my mind on many metro services this is now old hat we should be well down the path of NDO no driver operation its well proven technology these days and has been successfully in operation on a number of railways worldwide
 

bluegoblin7

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There is already DOO on
- most trams (not West Midland)
Of 6 UK tram systems, four (currently) use conductors, though one is phasing them out.

Birmingham, Blackpool, Nottingham and Sheffield all use conductors.
Croydon and London do not.

The DLR and Tyne & Wear Metro don't tend to get classed as 'tram' systems.

However... these are really only ticket inspectors rather than 'guards', so would technically be classed as DOO operation.

Slightly pedantic point but perhaps worth pointing out.
 
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