Gerry Fiennes wrote about exactly the same when he was riding in a cab, crossing gates were late being put across, driver said it was regular there. Fiennes promised him AHBs, and "do it yourself" - possibly only half-joking.
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Drivers v Signallers
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Thank you, I've long suspected that to be the case.
Is it time for Drivers to have fairly regular visits to Signalboxes again? when I was in a PSB we used to get regular visits, and they could see what was going on, and why they may get a red, then green.That's fine then, hence why I asked for a signaller's perspective. I have visited major signal boxes when I was a trainee and there didnt seem to be a lot going on except tea drinking and biscuit eating lol
The increased pressure of granting line blocks to get work done is now far greater, and this can also quite frequently give rise to the 'red/green' scenario.
and beeps until acknowleged.
Rule 55 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Literally a button labelled 'SG' that sends a message to the Signaller
Problem is, take the system out of ARS / SARS and a train gets delayed, then it is the Signaller that takes the rap for taking it out of ARS !
Recall years ago at Colchester, we had about 5 Drivers up for a visit, it was busy, but all was going well, they brought cake with them, which is always a guaranteed way of getting the door open
During the visit there was a panel flashover at Ipswich, all tracks show occupied, all signals went black, and points OOC, normally it will reset on its own after a 30 seconds or so, this time it didnt and of course the workload shot up in the whole box, as the panels that fringed Ipswich took action too.
The Drivers stayed for about another 15 mins, then said, I think we had better go, looks like you have your hands full !
It must be something they never forgot, as when we spoke to them in later weeks/months on the phone or GSMR, they always mentioned it !
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I think another visit to a signalling centre would be invaluable now. As I said I went a couple of times when I was a trainee driver but it wasnt really of any value as I didnt know what I was looking at or what questions to ask.
In the same way signallers do not know what we can see from our cabs at a junction - there are several on my routes where you cannot see the junction from the protecting signal so you have to SG in case there is not actually a train that you are being held for (I usually wait a minute first)
As a driver I just wanna get where I am going without any fuss, so when you are cruising along at 60+ mph and you see the same double yellow as you did earlier on in the day, and you gotta slow down to a crawl for a red you cant see and it pings off to green just before you stop then I do find that irritating, sorry signallers
In the same way signallers do not know what we can see from our cabs at a junction - there are several on my routes where you cannot see the junction from the protecting signal so you have to SG in case there is not actually a train that you are being held for (I usually wait a minute first)
As a driver I just wanna get where I am going without any fuss, so when you are cruising along at 60+ mph and you see the same double yellow as you did earlier on in the day, and you gotta slow down to a crawl for a red you cant see and it pings off to green just before you stop then I do find that irritating, sorry signallers
Dai Corner
Established Member
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Maybe signallers should also take the rap if they fail to do so when they should, due to out-of-course running or whatever?
By the way, is there a way for signallers to report ARS doing silly things and get it fixed?
Yes, agree, if they 'know' something is not quite right, whip it out of SARS, run whatever is needed, then re-activate, however, the introduction of SARS has meant that one Signaller can cover a much wider area now, with so much going on, may miss it, as for reporting errors, yes that is done, but a 'fix' is not seemingly always that easy !
Agree, it should be part of the training, but seems to have fallen by the wayside a bit, when I was an SSM I ended up buying a couple of cab ride DVD's and got learners to watch them a couple of times, when learning specific panels, (to watch the whole video would have been pointless), they could then see, the badly sighted signals, that need to be 'off' well in advance, if possible, but even that I think stopped too, the dvd's were / are still in the box for anyone to watch, I left them there when I left, whether they do now I have no idea, once you know the bad signals, you never forget them......but you have to know where there are to start with !I think another visit to a signalling centre would be invaluable now. As I said I went a couple of times when I was a trainee driver but it wasnt really of any value as I didnt know what I was looking at or what questions to ask.
In the same way signallers do not know what we can see from our cabs at a junction - there are several on my routes where you cannot see the junction from the protecting signal so you have to SG in case there is not actually a train that you are being held for (I usually wait a minute first)
As a driver I just wanna get where I am going without any fuss, so when you are cruising along at 60+ mph and you see the same double yellow as you did earlier on in the day, and you gotta slow down to a crawl for a red you cant see and it pings off to green just before you stop then I do find that irritating, sorry signallers
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The last time I had a signaller cab ride with me was a few years ago. Whilst happily going along the route (on a fast section of single line, where the route undulates-we nickname it the rollercoaster) the signal ahead reverted to danger, where I proceeded to go passed the signal at around 60mph whilst thinking a freight coming the other way had run through the signal protecting the signal line (this is unsighted maybe ½ a mile away). The signaller cab riding with me knew the who was on the workstation that day. It was certainly an experience for him (less enjoyable for me) and I wonder if he ever had a word with his colleague for causing me to have a CAT B SPAR. The signaller got to see things from a drivers perspective that day..... I also knew the signaller by his voice from working elsewhere within Network Rail previously. I hold no grudges, as mistakes happen..... But it did cause me to have a case of the wobbles for a few minutes afterwards
The Planner
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Sheffield Crucible?
Annetts key
Established Member
If you want to see chaos and signallers working their socks off, visit when an electrical storm has caused lots of signalling failures, cable theft has occurred or been attempted, multiple signalling / point / communication or data link systems / interlocking failures have or are occurring. Or other infrastructure faults.
The work load can quickly go from one extreme to the other... And yes, at night, Sunday mornings, and sometimes other times, the signaller may not have many trains to "look after".
BTW, I'm not a signaller. But I have spent a lot of hours on the operating floor of various signalboxes.
The signaller being able to clear a signal from a red where you stopped (or nearly stopped) straight to a green may have a reason behind it other than the track ahead being clear of trains.
S&T carrying out work being one of many reasons. Or due to a fault, the signaller has to allow two or three signal sections to be clear before routing the signal. That's just two possible reasons out of many.
Another possible reason, is the signalling is working in degraded mode. For example, if selective overrides are in use, and when designed, the railway went for the cheapest version, only one line at a junction can have its signal(s) cleared (routed) at a time, even if under normal signalling, multiple lines could have parallel signalled moves.
Not saying this is the case that you have experienced. But just for the record, most controlled signals have an emergency approach control / approach release system. This is not something that the signallers have direct control over, but can be enabled by S&T if instructed. Although it is now not used very often.
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CarrotPie
Member
That sounds intriguing. Could you elaborate?
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Conflicting move in the next section but further sections clear?
Level crossing in next section?
Of course the driver won’t know this and will send an SG whenever they see fit. Although as a signaller it’s incredibly frustrating when that beep on the GSMR goes when you’ve got your fingers on the buttons setting the route at exactly the same time
dk1
Veteran Member
Any signallers wanting a cab ride on their patch are always welcome up front with me. Being an ex-Bobby myself back in the day will mean no lack of conversation. We are all one railway & always will be in my head.
Isn't that the point of the rule to SG unless you see a reason why. If the Drivers doesn't know, then its SG. Maybe the rule should be stop and wait 1 minute. If reason; wait. If no reason; SG.
dk1
Veteran Member
Yeah totally. My perception of the situation and the driver’s is often unrelated. By the same token that beep has appeared and I’ve looked up and gone oh missed that one or ‘it’s at a stand I need to call that driver and ask x or caution for y’. Not a dig at the drivers they SG when they’re ready
Train_manager
Member
The rule book states a driver can wait 2 minutes before contacting the signaller. I prefer to wait 0 minutes before a SG.
The rule book states to SG. If you don't understand it then please re-read the rule book
I was just trying to point out how it’s perceived by a signaller depending on the person/context. There are times when it’s frustrating and other times where it’s a really useful prompt
Annetts key
Established Member
Temporary Approach Control / Temporary Approach Release
When the S&T technician operates a special control, the controlled signal will remain at red when routed until the berth (approach) track circuit (or axle counter) section is detected occupied (that is, a train is present). There are no timers involved in this system, unlike some normal Approach Control / Approach Release requirements.
This reduces the speed of trains, as they get a restrictive aspect sequence (double yellow / single yellow) as they approach, but when they get to what they were expecting to be a red signal, it has now cleared to a proceed aspect.
The provision was provided for use either to help protect incidents, for emergency speed restrictions or to help mitigate certain signalling failures.
It is normally no longer used for emergency speed restrictions, instead the signaller stops and advises the driver, until such time that the P.Way have completed putting the speed restriction boards and other equipment out.
It is a design requirement from BR times (I'm not sure if it's still a Network Rail requirement).
When the S&T technician operates a special control, the controlled signal will remain at red when routed until the berth (approach) track circuit (or axle counter) section is detected occupied (that is, a train is present). There are no timers involved in this system, unlike some normal Approach Control / Approach Release requirements.
This reduces the speed of trains, as they get a restrictive aspect sequence (double yellow / single yellow) as they approach, but when they get to what they were expecting to be a red signal, it has now cleared to a proceed aspect.
The provision was provided for use either to help protect incidents, for emergency speed restrictions or to help mitigate certain signalling failures.
It is normally no longer used for emergency speed restrictions, instead the signaller stops and advises the driver, until such time that the P.Way have completed putting the speed restriction boards and other equipment out.
Rulebook Module S4 said:
I will SG pretty much when I come to a stand. I do use a bit of common and a bit of experience but when I visited the box it was one of my direct questions. Not a single Signaller had an issue with it (of those I spoke to) A few even said that they liked it because having the reminder is useful and sometimes, yes, they do forget.
I work Metro. Its weird when I get Greens everywhere !
185
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Not quite. At Piccadilly, the signaller's game of Platform Three Jenga fell down when he miscounted and stuck a fifth set on which was half hanging out of the station beyond the peg. Six empty platforms, no possessions, all points working, and Doris age 90 from Gateshead boarding the Rose Hill Marple wondering when she'll see the Tyne Bridge. Twenty years later, it's a little better, but occasionally takes just one rogue, bad signaller to mess it up - 18 minutes outside at 1am on an in-service Pendo last year, due to 'confusion'.
railfan99
Established Member
For passenger trains, why wouldn't you just let any excess 'waiting time' due to running early be at the next scheduled stop (or, as you call it in the UK, the next 'call'?)
Frothy_B
Member
Someone may end up putting it in a better way than myself, but I would imagine it would be a blanket "run to the timetable" rule to stop certain situations arising.
Train A is running 7 early and gets into platform 1 of a 2 platform through station. Two minutes later Train B, a non stopping freight, is due to pass through platform 1 after joining the line at the junction on the approach to the station. Train B now has to sit and wait, putting it 5 behind, which has a knock on effect on Train C, the passanger service which was meant to follow Train A before starting back.
Train A is now running to time but both Trains B and C now have a delay that will need to be attributed to them. Train Bs 5 minute delay here causes knock on delays further down its route as it's now following the stopping service Train A, which then causes delays to other services further down the line. If the Signaller had slowed Train A or even held it at the Signal before the station then none of A,B or C would be delayed at this point.
I know this is a very basic explanation and is very situational but from what I can gather it's this type of situation that the rule regarding running trains to booked paths is designed to avoid.
Signal_Box
Member
The signal will automatically clear to yellow or green once the train passes clear of next section.
This will happen all day as the passage of trains happens as normal without any human interaction.
Should for example a line blockage be required, the signaller can manually replace the signal to red via pressing a R button next to the signal icon on the work station.
Unfortunately being human we sometimes forget to replace to auto after the blockage has been given up clear for trains so trains come to a stand at a red signal with a clear section ahead.
You can also use this feature to protect the line in an emergency.
Older automatic signals have an actual key on the signal post, this is for track staff to replace their protecting signal to red after authority has been given by the signaller. It’s the same principle as the above process but it’s on the ground replacement rather than signaller replacement.
GardenRail
Member
Because it may not be the next train booked in that platform, at that station. As a general rule, our passenger trains don't usually run that early, that this could be done anyway. They're timed that tightly between reporting points, it's simply not a thing in the way you describe. Freight and ECS however....
It does come across as a very angled opinion sometimes from drivers in control of ONE train, vs signallers controlling the movements of, say, 25 trains across maybe 30 or more miles of track, with 7 'complex' junctions and level crossings.
Note, not every signal box, is an attractive ivy clad structure with an up and a down, and 6 semaphore signals, with a train in each direction once an hour.
If I'm dealing with something out of the ordinary at Conisbrough, along with my 3 CCTV crossings, 3 Line Blockages, 13 Junctions total, 6 Loops, TramTrain that doesn't interpose automatically, Barrowhill Yard, Tinsley Yard, Rotherham Yard, and their associated Shunters, along with delays questioning everything........... and then ONE train gets stopped at Barrowhill because its not running in SARS, 25 miles away from Conisbrough, at the other end of the Workstation, in my 12 hour shift, I don't think I've done bad.
On a typical Day Shift on Rotherham, there are around 210 timetabled trains through Aldwarke Junction (and thats just 1 of the 7 main Junctions) of 13)
For perspective, Rotherham, my specific example controls South of Barrowhill through to the East side of Conisbrough Tunnel, and Bolton on Dearne station. Also from Woodburn Jn through to Kiveton, and everything in between, Holmes Jn, Tinsley Yard, and fringes with Supertram under Tinsley Viaduct.
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Falcon1200
Established Member
An excellent explanation of the pressure Signallers are under, and the reason why Drivers (and other staff such as Controllers and Delay Attribution staff) should be able and encouraged to visit boxes to gain better understanding (and the same would apply to operating staff having authorised cab rides).
GardenRail
Member
I can't speak for the rest of the company, but in the Sheffield part of York ROC, we're given cab-rides quite often for training etc. Just recently some of us got the chance to go to Ardwick Depot for the day and have a go on the driver simulator, etc. The last drivers I remember personally, coming to visit us, were from Northern, over a year ago. Of course, more may have been when I wasn't there. It doesn't happen often though.
dk1
Veteran Member
Many of my driving trainees have been taken to Colchester Power box to see how it’s done. Conductors courses used to regularly visit Brundall box before resignalling in 2019.
trundlewagon
Member
There were a couple of signals affected by foliage on one of my routes last summer and I think this is what they implemented until the offending foliage was cut back.