Driving on line of sight without route knowledge

[baz962]

Perhaps the question needs rewording slightly.

What if the train with the medical emergency was stuck in the tunnel because a train in the station in front had a driver without route knowledge.

In that case, one would hope the front train could be talked forward one signal to allow the train that was stuck to be brought to the station.

Firstly in the very unlikely event of that happening , we aren't ogres and we would probably shunt one signal in that scenario. But in reality that won't happen. Route knowledge generally doesn't just end at a random one platform station in the middle of nowhere. It usually ends at a depot or a big multi platform or terminal station and so you would just get put on another platform.

 

[Somewhere]

Perhaps the question needs rewording slightly.

What if the train with the medical emergency was stuck in the tunnel because a train in the station in front had a driver without route knowledge.

In that case, one would hope the front train could be talked forward one signal to allow the train that was stuck to be brought to the station.

Emergency permissive working

 

[dk1]

Emergency permissive working

Haha, the days of anything like that being agreed have long since passed.

Time interval working might make a return then too.

 

[Somewhere]

Haha, the days of anything like that being agreed have long since passed.

Time interval working might make a return then too.

Really? If trains cannot set back wrong road, its the preferred option rather than sitting a train between stations

 

[dk1]

Really? If trains cannot set back wrong road, its the preferred option rather than sitting a train between stations

They can be set back wrong road provided all conditions are met but most certainly not permissive working.

Permissive working can only occur at authorised locations

 

[Falcon1200]

You could SPAD a shunt signal and continue into the path of another train if flank protection isn't in place.

Please refer to the examples and conditions I suggested in Post #20; The route over the diversion would be cleared throughout before the move started, therefore no need to stop at an unfamiliar signal.

Something not mentioned previously is also the issue of stopping the train in the correct place. On some stations the stopping markers are not obvious, particularly with all the platform clutter and plethora of stopping markers for umpteen different types of stock. .

The kind of diversion I suggested in Post #20 would not require the train to stop at an unfamiliar platform, as there would either not be any stations en route, or if there were, the train would not be booked to call there anyway!

Only if you install TPWS and some form of overlap on literally every signal, including shunt signals. You can do a lot of damage at 10mph if you end up at the wrong place - and even a modern passenger train doesn't stop all that quickly.

Again, as above the route would be cleared throughout.

I am not suggesting for one minute that trains should be sent miles down routes where the Driver has never been or signed for, just that there are some locations where derogation with conditions attached would be beneficial; Three as per Post#20 just from my experience in Scotland. And yes, in an ideal world route knowledge would include such lines but as it does not, reasonable and safe measures should at least be considered.

 

[dk1]

Deleted

 

[TurboMan]

They can be set back wrong road provided all conditions are met but most certainly not permissive working.

Permissive working can only occur at authorised locations

Emergency permissive working allows the signaller to authorise the driver past a signal at danger into an occupied non-permissive section for the purposes of e.g., preventing a train being stranded.

It's because emergency permissive working wasn't used when multiple trains got stranded at Lewisham in 2018 that passengers decided to take matters into their own hands and several uncontrolled evacuations occurred.

 

[dk1]

Emergency permissive working allows the signaller to authorise the driver past a signal at danger into an occupied non-permissive section for the purposes of e.g., preventing a train being stranded.

It's because emergency permissive working wasn't used when multiple trains got stranded at Lewisham in 2018 that passengers decided to take matters into their own hands and several uncontrolled evacuations occurred.

That makes sense. I was reading that as allowing trains to follow each other as the thread mentions driving on line of sight.

 

[Somewhere]

That makes sense. I was reading that as allowing trains to follow each other as the thread mentions driving on line of sight.

That's not what emergency permissive working is. Emergency permissive working allows a stranded train to be brought into a platform so passengers can alight to prevent them from evacuating uncontrolled onto the track.
Quite often, a train would be terminated to allow it to leave a station empty to sit at a signal to allow a following train to use the platform without needing to resort to emergency permissive working, but emergency permissive working will be used if other safer options have been explored.

Report 02/2019: Self-detrainment of passengers onto lines that were still open to traffic and electrically live at Lewisham

RAIB has today released its report into the self-detrainment of passengers onto lines that were still open to traffic and electrically live at Lewisham, 2 March 2018.

www.gov.uk

The RAIB has also identified two learning points. These concern:

the timely application of emergency signalling rules, such as emergency permissive working, and of training and opportunities to apply such infrequently-used regulations