Brent Goose
Member
Is this about Canals and/or somewhere like the non-tidal Thames?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Driving well below the speed limit
- Thread starter Bald Rick
- Start date
Is this about Canals and/or somewhere like the non-tidal Thames?
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Egg Centric
Established Member
Canals - which are usually 4mph but occasionally 6mph (plus some other exceptions). I don't know how the Thames works.
It's an extremely trivial issue however you look at it compared to roads
Brent Goose
Member
Canals - which are usually 4mph but occasionally 6mph (plus some other exceptions). I don't know how the Thames works.
It's an extremely trivial issue however you look at it compared to roads
There are occasional prosecutions
https://www.conservancy.co.uk/public-complaint-leads-to-prosecution-of-speeding-jet-skiers/
Sorry, no idea how to quote
Egg Centric
Established Member
Sure although that case is equivalent of doing 210mph on a motorway (under our current tyranny) hence my suspicion that only v egregious cases are...
Except it isn’t, becasue there will still be the people doing 37mph without a care in the world.
Reducing the need to overtake is in my view counterproductive. It is quite noticeable how few people do overtake other cars these days, and in some cases this inexperience leads to overtaking in inappropriate places. Only today I have been overtaken (on my bike) on a blind corner, and yes something was coming the other way. I saw what was happening and got myself out of the way. The overtaker had been behind for a while, when overtaking was entirely possible, and yet decided to do it in the worst place. Someone who did overtaking regularly would not have done that.
Therefore I don’t agree with a blanket 50mph restriction on single carriageways, that is unecessary. In some parts of the country (eg rural Scotland) it would be extremely unpopular. (The locals there know how to drive, believe me!) Besides, HGVs universally travel at 55/56 on single carriageways in my experience, so no real need to overtake them anyway. What I do think should be done is that the NSL signs on single carriageway roads be replaced with 60 signs.
I do support a 50mph limit on single track roads with no white line. It is clearly nonsense to have these at 60.
Yes I saw that the other day. I can understand it for the corners at the Prae Arms, but not for the rest of the stretch to Redbourn.
Egg Centric
Established Member
That’s just a road without a centreline rather than what I’d call a single track road. Two cars can pass on that.
I still wouldn’t be doing 60 and I have a very capable car.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes. You clearly can't round that bend at 60 without leaving the road in most cars, and speed limits are not set for sports cars. As I've said upthread, if you want to act like that book a track day.
The one single track road I can think of where doing 60 is totally safe is the bit between the Hardknott and Wrynose passes, it's fairly straight and you can see over a mile.
Egg Centric
Established Member
Ok, here ?
I don't know what to tell you if you think that. We're clearly living in a different universe with differnt laws of physics.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's very similar to Wrynose Bottom. To be fair, nobody is likely to be standing in either of those places with a speed gun, and if they were you would see them. It's a bit like the way (this was in the news today) many "proper" wild campers don't mind that it's not lawful in most places, as if you get caught you were doing it wrong (e.g. littering, fires, too large a group etc). If you don't see a speed trap, you might not see a fallen cyclist or a small child either so deserve everything you get.
Or you're driving a performance car very enthusiastically. As I've said repeatedly, driving laws are set based on average drivers in average cars, because the purpose of the roads is transport, not fun. If you want to drive in the manner you've outlined you do drive, book a track day or take your car over to the Nuerburgring Nordschleife. It isn't suitable for the public roads.
Wouldn’t be doing 60 on that either. Nice blind corner to the south to meet some other person doing the same.
Egg Centric
Established Member
If I have time on Sunday I'll take my wife's old car (a 1 litre kia picanto) and video driving it around that bend at 60mph and I promise there will be 0 drama, it'll just be a chilled Sunday drive. No claims of being a driving god or pushing on, anyone could do it.
I'm the furthest thing from some kind of speed crazed lunatic you could possibly be.
My late Uncle (a former Police driving instructor) taught me at an early age that there are no unsafe roads. Just unsafe drivers.
Whilst I would be confident at driving safely at 60 on that road, I am also confident that not many other people would be, including most people I would be taking as passengers. I can already hear Mrs Bald Rick shouting at me.
Given that the number of single track roads that are suitable for 60mph is, in my experience of driving all over the country, relatively small, I think a blanket 50 on such roads would be acceptable. This is particularly the case given the significant rise in lesiure cycling on such roads.
I write as someone who enjoys driving quickly (more quickly than most other people), absolutely detests wasting time, and also a frequent leisure cyclist.
bramling
Veteran Member
Canals - which are usually 4mph but occasionally 6mph (plus some other exceptions). I don't know how the Thames works.
It's an extremely trivial issue however you look at it compared to roads
It isn’t that trivial when moored boats get slammed into the bank or each other, or for unpowered craft especially rowing boats. A nasty wave caused by a speeding power boat can quite easily capsize a smaller rowing boat especially a single scull.
Egg Centric
Established Member
What I'm saying is that it affects a tiny part of the population and tweaking the number or moving to a wash based definition even less - most people are reasonable regardless of the rules, y'know?
Whereas the national speed limit affects everyone, even if indirectly.
GusB
Established Member
I certainly wouldn't be doing 60mph on that road. Sheep are often out all year round and their behaviour is unpredictable. The very fact that they're present would be enough for me to significantly reduce my speed. Apart from the fact that I don't want to damage my car, there's also the rigmarole of having to report a collision if I was to have one. When I click on the link you've provided*, I only have to click forward slightly to see that there's a sheep wandering onto the road.
If the sheep weren't present I'd still be cautious; while the road looks to be clear ahead, you don't have the greatest of views round the bends. Bear in mind that you're looking at images captured by a car that has a camera on its roof and a car driver won't have the benefit of the extra height.
Additionally, the road surface doesn't look too great; it's crumbly at the edges and there could be "loose chippings".
* link is to a Google Streetview image of "Meadows Edge", wherever it happens to be
Goodness, no! That bit of road** is even less suitable to be driven at speed. While it's bright and sunny with good visibility and no obvious hazards, look at the side of the road. Again, it's crumbly and there are puddles at the side; you don't know how deep those puddles are and if you to were to have a brief moment of inattention you could be in serious trouble.
** link is to Google Streetview and shows a section of the A836 that is single-track road with passing places
Famous last words. Please do yourself and others a favour and don't do that. The very fact that you'll be trying to get footage will be a distraction and your mind won't be focussed on the driving.
You say you don't claim to be a "driving god", but I suspect that you think you are.
Given that the difference between 60 & 50mph over the 1.1m of NSL road is just 13 seconds*, it's not exactly going to make a noticeable difference to users. In all but the quietest times, there is a short wait at the Bluehouse Hill junction, so smoothing the flow is a worthwhile benefit.
* There are seven single track roads joining the road in the old 60mph section, some of them with frequent seasonal farm traffic and the occasional Veolia HGVs.
Exactly this - the roads are for everyone (with a certain minimum standard of competence for motor vehicles), but there is a very wide range of ability and interest in drivers. Driving on them is not a rally. Driving requires an enormous amount of anticipation, both of road conditions and the antics of other drivers, and the faster you go the more anticipation and concentration is required. Some people do this in their stride but many do not, and also don't want to arrive at their destination as soon as legally possible but in an exhausted state.
Road speed limits are not set like those on the railways - researched for the type of vehicle and the actual conditions at any given point - there are many places where it is downright dangerous to drive at the speed limit even in perfect conditions, quite apart from road surface defects offering further hazards for vehicles at speed.
On a good daylight journey, on a familiar journey, I normally drive the car a few mph under the speed limit (I know how easy it is for speed to creep up, and I don't want a speeding ticket). Where visibility is impaired (going around bends), where the road surface is in poor condition (I don't want a puncture from a pothole) or where there is joining traffic that may suddenly pull out I probably go a little slower. On unfamiliar roads and/or at night or in adverse weather conditions I will definitely go slower. Sorry to you people who feel confident at rally driving, but if you find me a nuisance please overtake.
Yes, I can get a move on if I really need to, but likely at the expense of an unenjoyable and, if any distance, an exhausting journey.
I suggest you give up your car and driving for a year and find out how that changes your lifestyle. I enjoy buses, both travelling in and driving them, but relying on them is pretty restricting in modern day society, and taxis very expensive for the frequency I would need to use them.
I drive down the A5183 fairly regularly, doing 36 or 37 mph - might get up to 38 past the old 'Punchbowl' and Bow Bridge. Hope you don't come across me lest I cause too much inconvenience!
I gave up my car and found it incredibly liberating. No more unexpected bills for whatever has broken this time, no more having to park at the bottom of the hill and walk home after a late shift on a Saturday because there's no room in the village, a four figure sum of money saved every year...
It's true that Arriva buses here are pretty poor, but riding my bicycle gives me absolute freedom to go wherever I want, whenever I want.
It depends, are you calling out police officers who regularly suffer from "blue mist" and often drive irresponsibly, usually in the guise of "saving lives"? If you are, then yes I agree.
That road is good (in bits) for more than 60mph, but the unfortunate thing is that a lot of people tend to see speed limits as a target, whereas it should be used as guidance. I know plenty of people who would drive around corners taking the prevailing speed limit into account and ignoring things such as forward visibility and the potential for hidden hazards.
For those who think it's too dangerous to drive quickly on a narrow country road, this risk would still exist even if rural country lane speed limits were reduced to 50 or 40mph. There are many corners out in the sticks I've found uncomfortable taking at faster than 10mph
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm calling out a specific poster on this thread who stated that they felt that should be legal (and normal) on British motorways and made the comment about responsible adults.
I don't find that emergency services drivers are usually negligent, though like any drivers they occasionally are.
I don't think that second comment is fair. Equalising the occasional negligence of emergency vehicles with the occasional negligence of drivers generally is doing the emergency workers a disservice. Reckon I can count on one hand the number of truly negligent acts I've personally witnessed by emergency crews, I could probably reach that within a month for other vehicles.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Probably fair though I've seen two cases of very bad driving/parking by them recently so I'm a bit clouded:
1. Parking in a disabled bay outside Tesco to go in for food (no incident was ongoing so far as I could see and I'd just come out of the shop myself and watched them saunter in). There was a free normal bay a very short distance away; parking in disabled bays is only excusable if attending a callout.
2. Almost colliding with me head on while conducting a dangerous overtake on a blind bend, I took evasive action as soon as I saw them but it was only just quick enough, had I been an older driver with poorer reactions I'd have likely been killed.
Not familiar with the road, and seeing the quality of the surface and the fact it breaks up so easily into the moorland it is crossing along with the puddles of unspecified depth, then no, I probably wouldn't be driving at 60mph.
Near us we have the this stretch of road, which was the focus of a Facebook conversation last night where a relatively new driver had been going about 35/40 and was overtaken by, all accounts, a very impatient Audi driver. The road in question is wide enough for 2 cars, and is definitely NSL. I would probably be a bit faster than that driver, but I would also be aware that we do have a number of cyclists and horse riders around the area and would be considering if I would meet one of those - it is certainly something I've noticed other drivers not being so aware of as I have seen in the past that I've been coming up towards a horse and have slowed down sensibly in advance and a driver coming the other way has just flown by.
I still haven't seen a response as to what the economic benefits of increasing the speed limits on the motorway would be other than to improve profit margins at the likes of Shell and BP.
Egg Centric
Established Member
HS2, in 2010, used figures of (approx) 53 pence per minute for business travellers and 10 pence per minute for leisuire travellers. £31.96 in 2010 pounds
A 200 mile journey, assuming no speed limits, could realistically be done at an average of 100mph, taking 2 hours. At present at current speed limits it can realistically be done at an average of 60mph, taking 3 hours 20 minutes.
For a business traveller then, with no one else in the car and in 2010 pounds, that's £42.60 per journey. Now obviously there will be increased fuel and maintenance costs but we'd still be talking over £20. And that's one way. It would realistically be a return trip and clearly the average number of people in the car is strictly higher than 1.
And that's without considering the extra opportunities it opens up - e.g. 3 1/3 hour journey and back in one day is a slog. 2 hours and suddenly not so much.
And £31.96 in 2010 pounds is as near as makes no difference £50 now.
Thanks.
What hasn't been factored in there is the mental impact of the increased speed/shorter journey time.
I personally find driving on the "slower" roads less stressful than motorways. For example I had a trip down towards Basingstoke a couple of weeks back. One way was via the M3 and the other was on the back roads. Journey times were similar with the motorway route being 4 miles longer. Driving down the country roads was nicer because there was less worrying about other drivers either causing me to be stuck in lane 1 or having lunatics wanting me to pull over into half a cars braking distance.
Yes, you may get somewhere quicker, but will you mentally be in the right state to do more work?
Egg Centric
Established Member
I'm not advocating a compulsion to do any particular speed, so people can do what works for them. Anyone who's driven on the Isle of Man knows that if anything most drivers are probably a little bit slower than they are around here (although quicker than they are in the south east). Similarly on the Autobahn the majority of folk tend to cruise around 90-95mph. The important thing is there's the option to go quicker when circumstances merit it.
But then we move back into the territory of unsafe & slow driving - what happens when you get 2 lorries passing at 55.8/55.9 mph and then somebody else who feels comfortable going 65 overtaking both of those being pushed along by somebody wanting to do 95? On numerous occasions, I've been overtaking something and am waiting until I can see the car I'm passing in all of my mirrors before pulling back in and some incompetent numbskull has insisted on cutting into the gap I was about to pull into because they couldn't be bothered to wait another 2 seconds.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I've had enough of fast drivers removing my safety space, i.e. pulling in front or behind closer than an appropriate braking distance, overtaking me before I've finished moving left so I can't abort if someone else moves right into my lane without indicating, undertaking me before I have time to move back left if the idiot I'm overtaking decides they'd rather speed up instead of being overtaken, "filtering" through slower traffic (that's allowed on a motorcycle, but isn't supposed to be practiced in a car) etc.
These are always the faster drivers and almost always drivers of either Range Rovers or premium German cars, plus the odd Tesla.
I thus take the line that the majority of people who want to go significantly over the present speed limit are dangerously impatient and support greater enforcement to prevent these things. I hope and assume this doesn't include the poster here, but it certainly includes a good many faster drivers of performance vehicles.
FWIW I think adaptive cruise control (which I otherwise like) is partly responsible for some of these behaviours. It's possible to set it to maintain a braking distance closer than the Highway Code minimum and really should not be, plus if such drivers are not paying attention that tends to cause the automatic speed-up that means they then just undertake rather than pulling right when someone has been caught out by a car deciding to speed up while being overtaken. Such speeding up while being overtaken is sometimes caused by it too.
Egg Centric
Established Member
One of the other things they have in Germany is very strict enforcement of "pushing" (assuming it means tailgating) and lane discipline. Regardless of limit changes I don't see how any one reasonable could object to that being introduced here.
They're just trying to get home before they break down again