DRS Planning 10 X Mixed Traffic Locos

[randyrippley]

Have you got a link to that Co-Co locomotive?

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail/eurodual/
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...4b6d-91db-eacea2f8190f/leurodualhvle0317e.pdf

and there was one prototype Co-Co which I think is the loco in the photo on this page
https://www.mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1001149&lang=en

 

[USRailFan]

I've seen the references to co-co versions but no actual locomotives themselves the earlier post suggested there were some in use on the euro tunnel but I can't find anything of them either.

Aren't all the Eurotunnel locos Bo-Bo-Bo?

 

[randyrippley]

Aren't all the Eurotunnel locos Bo-Bo-Bo?

yes - and built by Brush

 

[ac6000cw]

yes - and built by Brush

It was actually a consortium of Brush and ABB - mechanical design and final assembly by Brush, electrical equipment from ABB.

The class 92 locos were supplied by a similar Brush/ABB consortium arrangement.

 

[rebmcr]

the earlier post suggested there were some in use on the euro tunnel

"Eurotunnel" is a business. "The Channel Tunnel" is the infrastructure.

The previous post stated that Eurotunnel used them for hauling freight through France.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I've found the locomotive but it's listed as a Euro4000 rather than a Eurolight:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/private/freight/Europorte/180508-071.jpg

 

[USRailFan]

I've found the locomotive but it's listed as a Euro4000 rather than a Eurolight:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/private/freight/Europorte/180508-071.jpg

That seems to be the standard Euro4000. Looks identical to the ones that run over here in Norway: https://www.flickr.com/photos/135749294@N02/21785202815

 

[JohnMcL7]

That seems to be the standard Euro4000. Looks identical to the ones that run over here in Norway: https://www.flickr.com/photos/135749294@N02/21785202815

Definitely a Euro 4000, the original post had said the class 68 was a special build Bo-Bo version and the standard was a Co-Co version was used by Euro Tunnel. A post way further back had said that the UK has been shown they didn't need a Co-Co version which is the opposite way round hence I was curious what actual other Eurolights there are out there but aside from prototypes and references, the only actual locomotives out there seem to be the 68 and 88.

 

[Photohunter71]

It's not an absolute certainty that Stadler will get the contract, but they're the most likely. So what would be the case if Stadler lost out? Who can anyone see building the 10?

 

[Suraggu]

It's not an absolute certainty that Stadler will get the contract, but they're the most likely. So what would be the case if Stadler lost out? Who can anyone see building the 10?

Unless another manufacturer has orders for another company.

 

[randyrippley]

Definitely a Euro 4000, the original post had said the class 68 was a special build Bo-Bo version and the standard was a Co-Co version was used by Euro Tunnel. A post way further back had said that the UK has been shown they didn't need a Co-Co version which is the opposite way round hence I was curious what actual other Eurolights there are out there but aside from prototypes and references, the only actual locomotives out there seem to be the 68 and 88.

Have you see the links to the Eurodual I posted in #181? Theres an order for ten Co-Co for Germany
"Havelländische Eisenbahn (HVLE) has become the launch customer of the new generation of six-axle bi-mode locomotives
developed by Stadler for the European market. The contract includes the supply of ten EURODUAL locomotives and a corresponding
full service maintenance agreement.
The powerful locomotives are to be used in freight transport services in Germany with a speed up to 120 km/h combining both
operating modes:electric and diesel. The versatile machines can run on electrified lines (25 kV 50 Hz and 15 kV 16.7 Hz), rated at
7,000 kW, but they are also powered by a CAT C175-16, IIIB engine to run on non-electrified lines.
EURODUAL is more than just a “last mile” locomotive. It offers two solutions in one. A vehicle at the avant-garde of technology that
covers every need in an efficient and reliable way, offering rail operators numerous economic and ecological benefits"
These are a Co-Co version of the 88

 

[43096]

These are a Co-Co version of the 88

They're not - they are in another league entirely. On diesel, they have the engine from a 68. On electric, they are up there with the highest power locos in Europe - only the Eurotunnel Bo-Bo-Bos are in the same league in this country (they are around 2,000kW more powerful than a Class 92, for instance).

 

[randyrippley]

They're not - they are in another league entirely. On diesel, they have the engine from a 68. On electric, they are up there with the highest power locos in Europe - only the Eurotunnel Bo-Bo-Bos are in the same league in this country (they are around 2,000kW more powerful than a Class 92, for instance).

OK different power range, but its another member of that range of machines: they'll put whatever power you want in them

 

[JohnMcL7]

Have you see the links to the Eurodual I posted in #181? Theres an order for ten Co-Co for Germany
"Havelländische Eisenbahn (HVLE) has become the launch customer of the new generation of six-axle bi-mode locomotives
developed by Stadler for the European market. The contract includes the supply of ten EURODUAL locomotives and a corresponding
full service maintenance agreement.
The powerful locomotives are to be used in freight transport services in Germany with a speed up to 120 km/h combining both
operating modes:electric and diesel. The versatile machines can run on electrified lines (25 kV 50 Hz and 15 kV 16.7 Hz), rated at
7,000 kW, but they are also powered by a CAT C175-16, IIIB engine to run on non-electrified lines.
EURODUAL is more than just a “last mile” locomotive. It offers two solutions in one. A vehicle at the avant-garde of technology that
covers every need in an efficient and reliable way, offering rail operators numerous economic and ecological benefits"
These are a Co-Co version of the 88

I did read your links thanks but they were undated and assumed they were quite early on in the process as they just had the prototype and I couldn't see much information on them. It seems three have just been delivered to start testing though:

https://i0.wp.com/railcolornews.com...l_hvle06RenéKlink_wunstorf20180824.jpg?w=1600

They seem very capable locomotives given they're compliant with the new emissions regulations and as powerful as a 68 on diesel power. Is there a total weight limit and per axle limit on UK locomotives?

They're not - they are in another league entirely. On diesel, they have the engine from a 68. On electric, they are up there with the highest power locos in Europe - only the Eurotunnel Bo-Bo-Bos are in the same league in this country (they are around 2,000kW more powerful than a Class 92, for instance).

They do seem to be the same family though as they're badged as Eurodual which has a variety of power levels with the 88's at the bottom and the Co-Co ones at the top.

 

[whhistle]

Can someone explain what happened about the Class 66 bogies and if this relates?
I thought Brush designed (the Class 66 bogies) and didn't want to sell the designs for less than £1 per one.

I thought that's why the Class 67 was a bo-bo vehicle rather than a co-co?

 

[ac6000cw]

Can someone explain what happened about the Class 66 bogies and if this relates?
I thought Brush designed (the Class 66 bogies) and didn't want to sell the designs for less than £1 per one.

I thought that's why the Class 67 was a bo-bo vehicle rather than a co-co?

The Class 66 bogies are an EMD design (a lighter HTCR-E 'export' version of their standard HTCR radial-steering bogie, as used on numerous North American freight locos). See https://www.flickr.com/photos/kitmasterbloke/8201708291 (not my photo):
Detail of Class 66 bogie by kitmasterbloke, on Flickr

('H' = High-Adhesion, 'T' = truck (= bogie), 'C' = three axles, 'R' = radial-steering, 'E' = export)

The *story* I've heard is that EMD were interested in the 125 mph bogie design used under the Class 89 electric loco, but Brush wanted too much money for it. I guess the idea was that the '67' would basically be a 66 with different bogies.

 

[LOL The Irony]

('H' = High-Adhesion, 'T' = truck (= bogie), 'C' = three axles, 'R' = radial-steering, 'E' = export)

I never knew the 66 had steerable axles. I thought that was reserved for the big North America locos.

 

[ac6000cw]

I never knew the 66 had steerable axles. I thought that was reserved for the big North America locos.

Actually, recently the North American buyers seem to have moved away from steerable bogies, presumably because they feel the benefits are outweighed by the higher first-cost and maintenance requirements of the (more complex) steerable designs. EMD have offered a modern non-steerable bogie (HTSC) as an option for a while, and you don't see many GE ES44/ET44 locos around with steerable bogies (whereas they were quite common on the earlier AC4400).

 

[hwl]

The Class 66 bogies are an EMD design (a lighter HTCR-E 'export' version of their standard HTCR radial-steering bogie, as used on numerous North American freight locos). See https://www.flickr.com/photos/kitmasterbloke/8201708291 (not my photo):
Detail of Class 66 bogie by kitmasterbloke, on Flickr

('H' = High-Adhesion, 'T' = truck (= bogie), 'C' = three axles, 'R' = radial-steering, 'E' = export)

The *story* I've heard is that EMD were interested in the 125 mph bogie design used under the Class 89 electric loco, but Brush wanted too much money for it. I guess the idea was that the '67' would basically be a 66 with different bogies.

Stadler Valencia (who were a GM/EMD affiliate for a very long time in previous ownership) now make the welded bogies that EMD now supply for their current US locos. Finding firms that could still do cast Hadfield steel bogie frames (like the one in the picture) for a sensible price was becoming harder and harder.

 

[hwl]

Actually, recently the North American buyers seem to have moved away from steerable bogies, presumably because they feel the benefits are outweighed by the higher first-cost and maintenance requirements of the (more complex) steerable designs. EMD have offered a modern non-steerable bogie (HTSC) as an option for a while, and you don't see many GE ES44/ET44 locos around with steerable bogies (whereas they were quite common on the earlier AC4400).

Less of an issue with AC traction motors and individual axle control, but I'd argue still probably worth it given the cl. 70 issues.

 

[ac6000cw]

Less of an issue with AC traction motors and individual axle control

Agreed (and vertically-integrated railroad companies can internally trade off any increase/decrease in wheel & rail wear on curves against 'whole-life' bogie costs). Also, on trains with multiple locos, Canadian Pacific has found that switching to using 'distributed power' (front + remote-controlled mid/rear locos) for pretty much every train west of Calgary has produced a significant decrease in rail wear on curves (due to reduced in-train forces). That's probably far more significant in cost-reduction terms than steerable versus non-steerable bogies on the locos. Did seem a bit odd last year seeing a two-loco CP train of 'empties' with just one on the front + one mid-train sometimes though...

but I'd argue still probably worth it given the cl. 70 issues.

What are the class 70 issues (other than the engine problems)?

 

[hwl]

Agreed (and vertically-integrated railroad companies can internally trade off any increase/decrease in wheel & rail wear on curves against 'whole-life' bogie costs). Also, on trains with multiple locos, Canadian Pacific has found that switching to using 'distributed power' (front + remote-controlled mid/rear locos) for pretty much every train west of Calgary has produced a significant decrease in rail wear on curves (due to reduced in-train forces). That's probably far more significant in cost-reduction terms than steerable versus non-steerable bogies on the locos. Did seem a bit odd last year seeing a two-loco CP train of 'empties' with just one on the front + one mid-train sometimes though...



What are the class 70 issues (other than the engine problems)?

Wheelset wear /bogie issues

 

[whhistle]

The Class 66 bogies...

Thank you
Rating +1.

 

[sawnoff442]

They're not - they are in another league entirely. On diesel, they have the engine from a 68. On electric, they are up there with the highest power locos in Europe - only the Eurotunnel Bo-Bo-Bos are in the same league in this country (they are around 2,000kW more powerful than a Class 92, for instance).

Sorry disagree there! A 92 is 5.04MW on AC and 4MW on DC!
Fail to see how there is a 2,000kw difference.

 

[dgl]

Sorry disagree there! A 92 is 5.04MW on AC and 4MW on DC!
Fail to see how there is a 2,000kw difference.

The 2MW difference is compared to the eurotunnel class 9 where the 98xx/97xx series have 7MW available (9400bhp), the original class 9's, however, are closer in power but are still beaten by the class 9 with 596kw more.

 

[43096]

Sorry disagree there! A 92 is 5.04MW on AC and 4MW on DC!
Fail to see how there is a 2,000kw difference.

Stadler EuroDual is 7,000kW on electric. Class 92 as you state.

Difference is 1,960kW. As I said “around 2,000kW more powerful” I would say I was fully justified in saying what I did.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Stadler EuroDual is 7,000kW on electric. Class 92 as you state.

Difference is 1,960kW. As I said “around 2,000kW more powerful” I would say I was fully justified in saying what I did.

Ahagh! But you weren't fully cotrecht. It'sh Actuhally 1960 kilowhatts.

Yeah just a rivet counter. Best to ignore those people

 

[43096]

Ahagh! But you weren't fully cotrecht. It'sh Actuhally 1960 kilowhatts.

Yeah just a rivet counter. Best to ignore those people

 

[Photohunter71]

I still think this is a tag-on order for further 68's.

 

[trash80]

I think buying pure diesels now is a risky choice and a potential PR disaster