Dunbar to join the First ScotRail network

[Bittern]

I am delighted to announce enhancements to services in our summer
timetable from Sunday 23 May. Of particular note is that Dunbar will
join the ScotRail network from Monday 24 May with services to and
from Edinburgh.
---------------
Dunbar joins the ScotRail network on 24 May with services at 1000,
1421 and 2208 from Edinburgh returning at 1057 and 1504. The 1421
Edinburgh-Dunbar and 1504 Dunbar-Edinburgh will also call at Musselburgh.
These trains all run Monday-Friday except the 2208 which is
Monday-Thursday. The new timetables can be downloaded at scotrail.co.uk

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/files/Insight_May_June_2010 lo-res.pdf

It's not much, but certainly adds to the already existing East Coast and XC services which already call at Dunbar.

 

[CarterUSM]

Not before time either. I've always thought dunbar seemed a touch isolated from the network. You are right, it is not much, but a service enhancement is a service enhancement.

 

[gingerheid]

Yay! (but not too loudly, as it's not that much and not as much as it sh/could be). Anyone know what stock / where it's coming from?

 

[Bittern]

Yay! (but not too loudly, as it's not that much and not as much as it sh/could be). Anyone know what stock / where it's coming from?

Likely Class 322s while they last as they're EMUs that operate just south of Edinburgh anyway.

 

[CarterUSM]

Likely Class 322s while they last as they're EMUs that operate just south of Edinburgh anyway.

so they'll probably be getting diesels a lot of the time then?

 

[90019]

Likely Class 322s while they last as they're EMUs that operate just south of Edinburgh anyway.

I doubt it. If you added it onto the North berwick services, you'd end up with a rather awkward reversing at Drem, or you'd have to route some of them to Dunbar, reducing the serivce to North Berwick.

I'm guessing it'll be 158s or possibly 170s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or, now I think about it, you could even end up with 156s, though I doubt that.

 

[142094]

At first when I saw the title I assumed this meant that it was transferring from EC to be managed for Scotrail. Seems a bit odd that a small station such as this is managed by EC.

 

[Bittern]

I doubt it. If you added it onto the North berwick services, you'd end up with a rather awkward reversing at Drem, or you'd have to route some of them to Dunbar, reducing the serivce to North Berwick.

I'm guessing it'll be 158s or possibly 170s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or, now I think about it, you could even end up with 156s, though I doubt that.

Never said it would be added on, just another service run by those units since they're EMUs that are in that area.

 

[flymo]

As the times are between peaks would this be a unit that would have normally sat idle at Waverley or somewhere during the day anyway. If so it seems a sensible idea to put it to some use.

 

[rail-britain]

As far as I can work out the timetable is possible, but it would mean using all the Class 322 units
Therefore I would assume a DMU may appear from time to time, or the service cancelled

The mid-afternoon North Berwick - Glasgow is now much later in the evening, and that leaves a Class 322 in Edinburgh between 15:00 and 18:00

 

[tbtc]

Good news for Mussleburgh; I've always thought that a station in East Lothian would be deserving of some longer/ faster services (in the way that some long distance trains from England to Glasgow stop at Motherwell)

Shame the capacity isn't there to increase this kind of service, but with "all stop" EMUs as far as Drem, plus freight competing for paths with the High Speed boys, not everything is possible

 

[Bittern]

Good news for Mussleburgh; I've always thought that a station in East Lothian would be deserving of some longer/ faster services (in the way that some long distance trains from England to Glasgow stop at Motherwell)

Difference is that Motherwell has a crap-load more local services for places such as Lanark, Dalmuir, Hamilton, Milingavie etc. where Mussleburgh has trains to Edinburgh Waverley which long-distance services already serve, and North Berwick

 

[tbtc]

Difference is that Motherwell has a crap-load more local services for places such as Lanark, Dalmuir, Hamilton, Milingavie etc. where Mussleburgh has trains to Edinburgh Waverley which long-distance services already serve, and North Berwick

True, but Mussleburgh would work well as an "Edinburgh Parkway", which is what GNER wanted to do (or, at least talked about doing) - close to the Edinburgh bypass, handy for places like Dalkeith/ Tranent.

 

[sprinterguy]

Given that Scotrail are keeping hold of the ex-Wessex 158s that were meant for Northern indefinitely now, I suspect that 158s will crop up pretty frequently on the new Dunbar services. I can't imagine 100% utilisation of the class 322s will be sustainable over a long period of time.

 

[CarterUSM]

Given that Scotrail are keeping hold of the ex-Wessex 158s that were meant for Northern indefinitely now, I suspect that 158s will crop up pretty frequently on the new Dunbar services. I can't imagine 100% utilisation of the class 322s will be sustainable over a long period of time.

Seconded, technical problems with them are reasonably common. They are leaving when the 380's are out and about in service anyway.

 

[reb0118]

Maybe this is in the wrong area but will ScotRail be introducing their own fares to Dunbar. There is quite a difference between what Scotrail charges to North Berwick & East Coast/XC charge to Dunbar at present. The restrictions are different also.

I have heard that these Scotrail services are just the start. Both EC & XC have implied that they wish to run all their services non-stop between Edinburgh & Newcastle. Who will take up the slack? The Scotish Government want the Scotrail franchise to cover the whole country so that would imply that they would run at least as far as Berwick (potential new stations at East Linton & Reston {for Duns & Eyemouth} have also been mentioned).

To me it would make more sense to extend the TPE Mancester - Newcastle service to Edinburgh as a semi-fast. Stopping intermediately at Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston(?), & Dunbar. With an hourly stopping service following on from Dunbar into Edinburgh. Both these services could be looped as required to allow the free passage of the non-stop trains.

 

[CarterUSM]

Maybe this is in the wrong area but will ScotRail be introducing their own fares to Dunbar. There is quite a difference between what Scotrail charges to North Berwick & East Coast/XC charge to Dunbar at present. The restrictions are different also.

I have heard that these Scotrail services are just the start. Both EC & XC have implied that they wish to run all their services non-stop between Edinburgh & Newcastle. Who will take up the slack? The Scotish Government want the Scotrail franchise to cover the whole country so that would imply that they would run at least as far as Berwick (potential new stations at East Linton & Reston {for Duns & Eyemouth} have also been mentioned).

To me it would make more sense to extend the TPE Mancester - Newcastle service to Edinburgh as a semi-fast. Stopping intermediately at Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston(?), & Dunbar. With an hourly stopping service following on from Dunbar into Edinburgh. Both these services could be looped as required to allow the free passage of the non-stop trains.

Local services to Berwick upon Tweed sound like a great shout, more work should be pro- actively encouraged. Dunbar has always seemed a strange place for an Inter-City service to call at, though i'm sure it is welcomed by the locals profusely. What are the pathing issues , if any?

 

[route:oxford]

If it is intended that the EC&XC services operate non-stop between Edinburgh & Newcastle, it should not be forgotten that there are many passengers who would like to travel south . They would probably not appreciate having to drive south on the A1 to Newcastle in order to get a train to destinations in England, or worse pay for local stopper to Edinburgh just to pass their originating station on the express 90 minutes later (and similar on return).

Any spare 180s, 22Xs, or even temporarily Javelins to operate a 125mph stopping service between Newcastle & Edinburgh? I'm guessing that an HST wouldn't have the acceleration to operate a cross-border stopper without upsetting the non-stop diagrams.

The service would have to be co-sponsored by Transport Scotland and whichever authority funds Newcastle & Berwick. So Transport Scotland logo down one side of the train & Angels of the North down the other?

 

[transportphoto]

Very Good Idea there Mate. However I doubt this will be happening anytime soon!

(even if there is the spare stock!)

Would like to see it happen though!

 

[tbtc]

One of the troubles with the ECML is that long distance trains end up having to stop at small places like Retford/ Northallerton/ Chester le Street/ Dunbar because there is no "local" train service on that stretch of line.

However, I think that Mussleburgh (for East Lothian/ Mid Lothian/ Edinburgh by-pass), Berwick (for much of the Borders) and Morpeth (for Blyth/ Ashington) are worthy of having some long distance trains stopping there.

The trouble is that Dunbar/ Berwick/ Alnmouth/ Morpeth get pretty random stopping patterns, and a clockface timetable would be a bit benefit here.

Lack of paths/ loops means that I don't think its feasible for any Edinburgh - Newcastle services to be pathed to get overtaken en route by a "non stop" service. Plus, take the "end to end" traffic away, and any "local" train will struggle for passengers on a journey that takes best part of two hours

 

[reb0118]

One of the troubles with the ECML is that long distance trains end up having to stop at small places like Retford/ Northallerton/ Chester le Street/ Dunbar because there is no "local" train service on that stretch of line.

However, I think that Mussleburgh (for East Lothian/ Mid Lothian/ Edinburgh by-pass), Berwick (for much of the Borders) and Morpeth (for Blyth/ Ashington) are worthy of having some long distance trains stopping there.

The trouble is that Dunbar/ Berwick/ Alnmouth/ Morpeth get pretty random stopping patterns, and a clockface timetable would be a bit benefit here.

Lack of paths/ loops means that I don't think its feasible for any Edinburgh - Newcastle services to be pathed to get overtaken en route by a "non stop" service. Plus, take the "end to end" traffic away, and any "local" train will struggle for passengers on a journey that takes best part of two hours

You make some very good points. How about this for a service pattern:-

Mondays to Fridays 0700 -1900

1) A half hourly non-stop service between Edinburgh & Newcastle operated by EC.

2) An hourly XC express calling at ONE intermediate station

3) An hourly semi-fast calling at Dunbar, Reston, Berwick, Chathill (limited stop), Alnmouth, & Morpeth.

4) An hourly stopper to North Berwick

5) An hourly stopper to Dunbar

6) An hourly stopper from Morpeth (peak services continuing to/from Alnmouth with one or two "shoppers specials" also)


I think the above would provide a reasonably adequate timetable and should not provide too many operating difficulties. There is talk of replacing the main line platforms at Dunbar to eliminate conflicting movements. There are passing loops at Prestonpans, Drem, Dunbar, Grantshouse, Berwick, Tweedmouth(?), Crag Mill, Alnmouth, Chevington, Morpeth, & an Up/Dn slow line from Heaton Jn to Newcastle so plenty opportunity for overtaking if required. A clockface timetable could be implemented and how about (wishful thinking on my part I know) a station at Beal to connect into a dedicated bus link to Holy Island?

 

[MCR247]

There is not always a Half hourly to Edinburgh from Newcastle

 

[Aictos]

Well for one, I think that if WAGN did resolve the issues and ran services to Doncaster calling all stations in partnership with Central Trains then we might have had a clockface timetable years before Virgin and the WCML did!

Seeing as both WAGN and Central Trains were both National Express companies, it wouldn't have been too difficult for the service to be DOO between Kings Cross and Peterborough and Guards between Peterborough and Doncaster using the 322s/317s.

That way, a lot more Express services could run non stop between Peterborough and Doncaster leaving the stations in between with the stopping service.

Although with regards to Dunbar, I wouldn't say no to FTPE running Newcastle to Edinburgh.

 

[Pumbaa]

In my little world, I'd often thought about a Northern 'Premier' service. Using the 14 Adelantes, with all other operators properly compensated of course, you could create a circular (or two pronged) service from Nottingham, as it seems to have crap connections north.

First service - Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Chester-le-Street, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh.

Second service - Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Manchester, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow.

You could join the two together between Edinburgh and Glasgow, with the Glasgow being extended back to Nottingham. To me, it seems like a sensible idea to give major towns like Huddersfield, Dunbar etc a good stable and regular link to places like Scotland, York and Leeds. With the 180s, you have 125mph top speed for the ECML, first class for a cheaper alternative to XC, EC, TPE and Virgin on their respective stretches as well giving a decent service throughout.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although with regards to Dunbar, I wouldn't say no to FTPE running Newcastle to Edinburgh.

This is a good idea, but seeing as they have sh*t all spare stock at the moment anyway, and can't give their own passengers across the Pennines, in particular Cleethorpes - Manchester a decent service, it'd be plain stupid to do this and deprive them of further capacity. At a guess, you'd need three or four extra units to do that from Newcastle north.

Mind you, because it's such a stupid idea, someone at DfT will now go and suggest it

 

[tbtc]

Well for one, I think that if WAGN did resolve the issues and ran services to Doncaster calling all stations in partnership with Central Trains then we might have had a clockface timetable years before Virgin and the WCML did!

Seeing as both WAGN and Central Trains were both National Express companies, it wouldn't have been too difficult for the service to be DOO between Kings Cross and Peterborough and Guards between Peterborough and Doncaster using the 322s/317s.

That way, a lot more Express services could run non stop between Peterborough and Doncaster leaving the stations in between with the stopping service

That would have been a much better use of resources for Grantham/ Newark/ Retford, leaving the High Speed services to run non stop on that stretch in the main

Although with regards to Dunbar, I wouldn't say no to FTPE running Newcastle to Edinburgh.

Again, could be a good use of stock, especially at the times there's only one East Coast service an hour to Edinburgh (when the "slow" one terminates at Newcastle).

Maybe when the TPE services through Preston are replaced by EMUs in a few years, they'll have spare 185s to use.

One other point to make, since we are talking about the whole line from Newcastle to Edinburgh, and not just Dunbar, is that the hourly Newcastle - Cramlington - Morpeth service is surely ripe for including in the mix here. If you accept that Morpeth to Cramlington is a tiny market (that can be served by local buses etc) then is there scope for four trains an hour between Edinburgh and Newcastle, with Mussleburgh/ Berwick/ Morpeth/ Cramlington getting (at least) one stop an hour plus Dunbar/ Alnmouth getting a stop in alternate hours? (plus the daily commuter train to/from Newcastle that stops at all the tiny stations)

 

[route101]

i like the idea of Nottingham to Scotland trains though they could route the Glasgow ones over the Settle . Maybe 3 a day? Last time i travelled from Leeds to Carlisle a lot were connecting up to Glasgow . Cheaper fare but not sure about pathing.

 

[LE Greys]

Isn't an awful lot of the capacity up there taken by freight?

 

[p.d87]

i have thought that when(if) the GLQ-EDB line gets electrified run an hourly fast train between glasgow and newcastle calling only at Falkirk High, Edinburgh Waverley then alternate the local stops giving a train every 2 hours between glas, edin and newc to dunbar alnmouth and morpeth. how about a 5-car Class 380 with buffet or trolley ?

 

[me123]

Electrification of Edinburgh-Glasgow would probably come with new EMUs (I'd imagine they'd be looking to run 4 and 8 car trains now). But it would be a possible service, as long as it could be flighted into existing express paths. I'd like to see an hourly train going between Glasgow and Newcastle in this way, and making stops at some of the more poorly served stations in the North of England.

 

[GNERman]

In my little world, I'd often thought about a Northern 'Premier' service. Using the 14 Adelantes, with all other operators properly compensated of course, you could create a circular (or two pronged) service from Nottingham, as it seems to have crap connections north.

First service - Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Leeds, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Chester-le-Street, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh.

Second service - Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Manchester, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow.

You could join the two together between Edinburgh and Glasgow, with the Glasgow being extended back to Nottingham. To me, it seems like a sensible idea to give major towns like Huddersfield, Dunbar etc a good stable and regular link to places like Scotland, York and Leeds. With the 180s, you have 125mph top speed for the ECML, first class for a cheaper alternative to XC, EC, TPE and Virgin on their respective stretches as well giving a decent service throughout.

I like the idea but a couple of problems.

Don't stop at Thirsk, its not a big enough station but has good links with York and Northallerton.

Don't stop at Chester-le-Street, not big enough and it's after Durham, not before.