E-bikes to be banned

[Harratt4]

Let's call a spade a spade here. I'll you what this is. This part of the ongoing hate campaign in this country aimed at cycling and cyclists. It's as simple as that. Apparently we're all terrible people for choosing an unselfish mode of transport that doesn't pollute and keeps us healthy, and other people out of the hospital. Where as the drivers who kill 5 people and seriously injure thousands a day, what find upstanding people they are!

Where's the call to ban cars? Nowhere that's where. Hypocrites.

I note you have not responded to the fact posted further upthread attributed to the LFB commander that "we have been seeing an e-bike or e-scooter fire every other day, on average". So that is, on average, 180 eScooter or eBike fires per year, just in London. I'd suggest this counters your point that they are not a risk (the illegal ones, but I agree it isn't reasonable for TfL staff to try and work out which are legal and which are not).

I'd suggest TfL are not anti-bike (remind me again who runs Santander cycle hire scheme which added over 900 bikes to their fleet last year), they are rather pro-dangerous and illegal ebikes catching fire on compact trains possibly running in very compact tunnels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note you have not responded to the fact posted further upthread attributed to the LFB commander that "we have been seeing an e-bike or e-scooter fire every other day, on average". So that is, on average, 180 eScooter or eBike fires per year, just in London. I'd suggest this counters your point that they are not a risk (the illegal ones, but I agree it isn't reasonable for TfL staff to try and work out which are legal and which are not).

I'd suggest TfL are not anti-bike (remind me again who runs Santander cycle hire scheme which added over 900 bikes to their fleet last year), they are rather pro-dangerous and illegal ebikes catching fire on compact trains possibly running in very compact tunnels.

It's probably also of note that the "Sadiq cycles" are a reasonable substitute for most people who would take their own on the Tube and ride at their destination. However what might be a limiting factor is if e-bikes are also banned from TfL stations like scooters are, which would potentially prevent them being used at the start of a journey as they couldn't be stored in the station racks. That said with the theft level in London as it is, is anyone with any sense storing anything other than a beat up old pushbike there in London?

 

[jumble]

So you're claiming that retailers and bike companies in the UK are selling unsafe products do you? That's a lie. I suggest YOU take that up with Canyon or Specialized, or one of many others.

Are the unions running TfL now? Sorry, I must have missed that announcement. So now TfL management have made it known that they will allow themselves to be bulled into implementing unfair and illogical restrictions on pax. Sorry, I've supported other disputes, but on this they are just wrong.

The fact that folding bikes are exempt makes a mockery of the whole thing. It's a sham. Just for show.

You may want to risk be trapped on an underground train where there is live rail with a contraption that may catch fire but I can assure you I am delighted at the ban.
I also note that you seem to know better about the risks than the fire safety experts who will have advised TFL

On a weekday evening from about 2030 - 2200 you will see numerous bikes on Northbound Met line trains, usually from The City or Euston Square, and they tend to alight at stations between Preston Rd and Rayners Lane. Every single train will have between 2 and 4 bikes at the front and the same number at the back, they place them blocking the doorways and aisles at the first and last set of doors. They are all food delivery cycles. I’d love to understand where they are going to / from and why they always travel at the same time of day.

I often see them on the southbound at Rayners at around 9.40 am

The LFB "overwhelming support" actually says "we have particular concern about the risk posed by conversion kits or modified e-bikes". I doubt they'd be worried at all if most bikes met UK/EU safety standards. A wider crackdown on the dangerous modified/non-compliant bikes is needed; they're a fire risk everywhere, including in people's homes.

The LFB are not the only Fire Safety experts who will have been consulted

 

[Tetragon213]

I note you have not responded to the fact posted further upthread attributed to the LFB commander that "we have been seeing an e-bike or e-scooter fire every other day, on average". So that is, on average, 180 eScooter or eBike fires per year, just in London. I'd suggest this counters your point that they are not a risk (the illegal ones, but I agree it isn't reasonable for TfL staff to try and work out which are legal and which are not).

I'd suggest TfL are not anti-bike (remind me again who runs Santander cycle hire scheme which added over 900 bikes to their fleet last year), they are rather pro-dangerous and illegal ebikes catching fire on compact trains possibly running in very compact tunnels.

Not merely just running in compact tunnels, but running in compact tunnels with a high likelihood of a 750V DC juice rail or (god forbid) a pair of +420/-210V DC juice rails (one of which is right there in the Four Foot) presenting additional electrocution hazards.

 

[AlterEgo]

And these same people are going to tell what's an ebike and what isn't are they? They're going to be able to tell with a quick glance if this is an ebike or not?

View attachment 177238

Is the ban on smoking justified even if at a glance it’s hard to tell if someone has a lolly in their mouth or a ciggy? The problem demographic the ban is targeting isn’t riding bikes like the one in the picture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not merely just running in compact tunnels, but running in compact tunnels with a high likelihood of a 750V DC juice rail or (god forbid) a pair of +420/-210V DC juice rails (one of which is right there in the Four Foot) presenting additional electrocution hazards.

+420/-210 is safer, that's pretty much the whole point of it. But that doesn't affect your point overall.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I feel it necessary to correct some misinformation I saw earlier suurounding EBikes. In this, I am referring to Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles which are legal to use on public roads etc., exactly as if they were conventional pedal cycles. I do not refer to anything that exceeds the strict limitations that make an EAPC legal in this way which are:

- are not capable of self-propelling; can only provide power (assistance) when the rider is pedalling
- can only provide an absolute maximum of 250W motor power
- can only do so at road speeds lower than 15.5mph after which assistance must disable
- has CE certification for safety (which I presume includes the quality of the battery).

Anything else requires a helmet, number plates, a licence, tax, insurance etc.

Not quite sure how an e-bike keeps someone healthy. But we aren’t talking about a cycle, it’s effectively a motorcycle, and these are already prohibited on LU.

No, they aren't. A motorcycle can self-propel; a legal Ebike can't.

Bit of a cop-out compared to a regular bike though. It’s like the people who cycle a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path, and think they’ve had an effective workout.

Even riding a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path is better physically than driving or watching TV

Personally, I think e bikes should be banned due to the sheer size of them. Three or four in one Metropolitan Line train carriage pretty takes up all the spare space.

My Ebike is no bigger than the pedal cycle hanging next to it. It is a kg or two heaver, though, but is about 5kg lighter than the very conventional mountain bike I had a few years back. Someone mentioned Ribble Cycles earlier. Here is a stock photo of one of theirs, complete and ready to ride - just add pedals. No, you don't need to add a battery. It's already there.



Meanwhile you can find unassisted pedal cycles with huge 4 inch balloon tyres and so on..... How would a railway enforcer determine quickly that this is what it is.
A close examination would reveal a small motor (about 2 1/2 inch diameter) in the rear hub (which might be mistaken for a gearbox or similar), and a button on the crossbar. And that's about all.

What should be happening here (as others have suggested) is enforcement. All those delivery riders (and others) one sees cruising around with no personal tractive effort and no number plate, should be summarily stopped and their equipment confiscated and destroyed.

The rather dumb thing I see with this blanket rule is that it does not appear to preclude someone from boarding a train with an (illegal) EBike battery in their rucksack, for that is where the principal fire risk is.

 

[johncrossley]

TfL have banned some of their own cycle hire bikes from their own trains! Many of the Santander Cycle hire bikes are now electric.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL have banned some of their own cycle hire bikes from their own trains! Many of the Santander Cycle hire bikes are now electric.

You are not intended to take these on a train, electric or not. You use a separate one at each end of your journey.

No, they aren't. A motorcycle can self-propel; a legal Ebike can't.

This isn't true any more. Type approval for an EAPC with a throttle is now possible, though most manufacturers don't bother as it is added cost so very few exist.

The rather dumb thing I see with this blanket rule is that it does not appear to preclude someone from boarding a train with an (illegal) EBike battery in their rucksack, for that is where the principal fire risk is.

Batteries generally don't catch fire if they aren't connected to anything.

 

[johncrossley]

You are not intended to take these on a train, electric or not. You use a separate one at each end of your journey.

That's the intention, and especially when the scheme started, there was a financial incentive to use them only for short journeys, because of extra charges if you take over 30 minutes to return the bike to a docking station. However, that factor has been reduced since they increased that time to 60 minutes for subscribers and from 6 April that will also apply to people buying a day pass. With 60 minutes to play with, it might be convenient in some circumstances to take the bike on the tube or train and cycle at both ends. At some locations, especially at main stations, it can be hard to find a docking station and more than likely you will end up walking some distance to the station once you find one.

The rather dumb thing I see with this blanket rule is that it does not appear to preclude someone from boarding a train with an (illegal) EBike battery in their rucksack, for that is where the principal fire risk is.

So can you remove the battery before boarding and take an e-bike on the train/tube?

 

[JB_B]

This isn't true any more. Type approval for an EAPC with a throttle is now possible, though most manufacturers don't bother as it is added cost so very few exist.

Do you just mean the old 6km/h "starting assistance" rule? I know there's a proposal to allow throttle e-bikes up to 25km/h but I don't think that's happened yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you just mean the old 6km/h "starting assistance" rule? I know there's a proposal to allow throttle e-bikes up to 25km/h but I don't think that's happened yet.

It has happened, but very few exist yet as it requires type approval.

 

[Harpers Tate]

This isn't true any more. Type approval for an EAPC with a throttle is now possible, though most manufacturers don't bother as it is added cost so very few exist.

Yes, up to walking speed (6km/h) only, such that it can effectively only be used to help with pushing the bike along (eg up a steep hill). I didn't think it important to mention "walk assist" but here it is.

 

[JB_B]

It has happened, but very few exist yet as it requires type approval.

Do e-bikes need type approval? If 25km/h on throttle is to be allowed I would have expected an amendment to the '83 EAPC regs ( which definitely hasn't happened).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, up to walking speed (6km/h) only, such that it can effectively only be used to help with pushing the bike along (eg up a steep hill). I didn't think it important to mention "walk assist" but here it is.

25km/h is now allowed with specific type approval.

I don't know the precise legal construct behind this but:

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

It can be propelled up to 15.5mph without pedalling but only if it’s been approved.

There seem to be very few such bikes out there, though.

 

[RailExplorer]

I feel it necessary to correct some misinformation I saw earlier suurounding EBikes. In this, I am referring to Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles which are legal to use on public roads etc., exactly as if they were conventional pedal cycles. I do not refer to anything that exceeds the strict limitations that make an EAPC legal in this way which are:

- are not capable of self-propelling; can only provide power (assistance) when the rider is pedalling
- can only provide an absolute maximum of 250W motor power
- can only do so at road speeds lower than 15.5mph after which assistance must disable
- has CE certification for safety (which I presume includes the quality of the battery).

Anything else requires a helmet, number plates, a licence, tax, insurance etc.


No, they aren't. A motorcycle can self-propel; a legal Ebike can't.


Even riding a couple of miles along an almost-flat disused railway path is better physically than driving or watching TV



My Ebike is no bigger than the pedal cycle hanging next to it. It is a kg or two heaver, though, but is about 5kg lighter than the very conventional mountain bike I had a few years back. Someone mentioned Ribble Cycles earlier. Here is a stock photo of one of theirs, complete and ready to ride - just add pedals. No, you don't need to add a battery. It's already there.

View attachment 177303

Meanwhile you can find unassisted pedal cycles with huge 4 inch balloon tyres and so on..... How would a railway enforcer determine quickly that this is what it is.
A close examination would reveal a small motor (about 2 1/2 inch diameter) in the rear hub (which might be mistaken for a gearbox or similar), and a button on the crossbar. And that's about all.

What should be happening here (as others have suggested) is enforcement. All those delivery riders (and others) one sees cruising around with no personal tractive effort and no number plate, should be summarily stopped and their equipment confiscated and destroyed.

The rather dumb thing I see with this blanket rule is that it does not appear to preclude someone from boarding a train with an (illegal) EBike battery in their rucksack, for that is where the principal fire risk is.

The chance of anyone noticing that the above bike (pictured) is electric, I would say is very slim. I quite often tell people to move their bike from directly behind my cab door - but again, if it isn't obviously electric with chunky wheels, I'll simply be asking them to move it and get back in my cab.

I can however tell pretty easily which ones are the thick tyre, delivery used bicycles on my DOO monitors without much effort - which I would probably say it's what the ban is really intended for.

 

[Harpers Tate]

25km/h is now allowed with specific type approval.

I don't know the precise legal construct behind this but:

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

There seem to be very few such bikes out there, though.

Noted, and disabused. Thanks.

 

[sprunt]

All the money spent on cycle lanes that have wreaked havoc with London’s buses could’ve been better spent improving London’s transport infrastructure.

Cycle lanes are, in fact, transport infrastructure.

 

[JB_B]

25km/h is now allowed with specific type approval.

I don't know the precise legal construct behind this but:

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

There seem to be very few such bikes out there, though.

Thanks for the link, Bletchleyite. You're right : there's a strong implicature there that it's possible for an e-bike that's twist-and-go-up-to-15.5mph to still be an EAPC (at least in some circumstances.)

Fortunately, gov.uk isn't generally written by AI (yet) but it's far from being free from error. When I'm a bit less busy at work I'll try to dig through the regs and work out what's going on.

 

[Egg Centric]

25km/h is now allowed with specific type approval.

I don't know the precise legal construct behind this but:

Riding an electric bike: the rules

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured.

www.gov.uk

There seem to be very few such bikes out there, though.

Do you know any more than the above link? Cause when e-bikes first came out there were throttles permitted that could take them up to top speed but they were banned in iirc early 2010s. My first e-bike which I got from my dad (who used it like 3 times) actually came with one although as it was horrendous build quality* that part broke pretty quickly.

*I could tell other stories about that bike in a more relevant thread if there is one, especially the tyres and how I got rid of it in the end. V happy with my Orbea XL even if it's a few years old now - cycle2work scheme is mega!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you know any more than the above link? Cause when e-bikes first came out there were throttles permitted that could take them up to top speed but they were banned in iirc early 2010s. My first e-bike which I got from my dad (who used it like 3 times) actually came with one although as it was horrendous build quality* that part broke pretty quickly.

*I could tell other stories about that bike in a more relevant thread if there is one, especially the tyres and how I got rid of it in the end. V happy with my Orbea XL even if it's a few years old now - cycle2work scheme is mega!

I don't know anything about the specific legislation, no. But there are throttle e-bikes out there if you Google that claim to be UK EAPC legal, and what I've heard including that site does imply they are probably not lying.

 

[Egg Centric]

I don't know anything about the specific legislation, no. But there are throttle e-bikes out there if you Google that claim to be UK EAPC legal, and what I've heard including that site does imply they are probably not lying.

Yup after following links a bit more I agree with your interpretation (chapeau!). Must be a very tiny number of people who do this; I see that Whisper for instance seem to do it on the bike equivalent of IVA so clearly there's no point for them in seeking it out on a model by model basis.

I do wish we allowed a proper top speed on our ebikes though. There's a perfectly sensible half way house between these courier mopeds disgusied as bikes and our current fairly weedy e-bikes in having something like they have in the US where you have e-bikes permitted to be motoring to the high 20s mph wise. I can understand why they might be problematic in London, but up here they'd be brilliant.

 

[Harpers Tate]

You can go as fast as you like on an EBike. I got up to 31mph on my last ride. You just won't be (legally) getting any help from the electrics.

As with all things, an Edge-Case (if that's what this is) often serves to make such rules (the ban) somwhat moot. There is a device called "Skarper". It consists of an integrated motor and battery unit which is quickly and easily detachable from what is otherwise a conventional bike which only bears some small passive attachments to facilitate the attach and remove.

Thus - attached, it's an EBike, banned. Detached and it's a bike, not banned. Put the Skarper in your backpack. That's not banned, either. So, EBike users in London (and elsewhere) - get a regular bike, fit the Skarper and ride your Ebike. Board a train by detaching and placing the Skarper in your rucksack.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can go as fast as you like on an EBike. I got up to 31mph on my last ride. You just won't be (legally) getting any help from the electrics.

As with all things, an Edge-Case (if that's what this is) often serves to make such rules (the ban) somwhat moot. There is a device called "Skarper". It consists of an integrated motor and battery unit which is quickly and easily detachable from what is otherwise a conventional bike which only bears some small passive attachments to facilitate the attach and remove.

Thus - attached, it's an EBike, banned. Detached and it's a bike, not banned. Put the Skarper in your backpack. That's not banned, either. So, EBike users in London (and elsewhere) - get a regular bike, fit the Skarper and ride your Ebike. Board a train by detaching and placing the Skarper in your rucksack.

That is probably better for safety anyway. If the battery in your rucksack caught fire (which it probably wouldn't if not connected to anything) you could easily sling it out of the door rather than the burny thing sitting there blocking the doorway preventing exit and being very difficult to remove. This is a similar principle to how airlines are now requiring people to carry power banks on their person instead of in their hand luggage - if it starts to get warm you'll notice in plenty of time to do something about it - same as the rules on carrying matches/lighters on planes.

However noting that most Deliveroo/Uber Eats riders seem to be too thick/ignorant to choose a legal bike (on which they could still do their job perfectly well*) they probably won't think of things like this either.

* That said, the most impressive 'Roo delivery I've had was a student in Bristol on a road bike - clearly very fit, he did it quicker than anyone on an e-bike would, legal or otherwise, probably averaging at least 20-25mph, possibly more, in what is a very hilly city. Clearly a serious cyclist and enjoying being paid for doing his hobby. He got a weighty tip as I was so impressed!

 

[Harpers Tate]

If the battery in your rucksack caught fire (which it probably wouldn't if not connected to anything) you could easily sling it out of the door

Valid point about slinging it. But in this specific case, the battery is just as connected (electrically) whether the device is on, or off, the bike. The unit is a battery plus motor, integrated into one detachable unit, with only a couple of hangers and a simple mechanical interconnect to the bike's rear wheel for mounting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wish we allowed a proper top speed on our ebikes though. There's a perfectly sensible half way house between these courier mopeds disgusied as bikes and our current fairly weedy e-bikes in having something like they have in the US where you have e-bikes permitted to be motoring to the high 20s mph wise. I can understand why they might be problematic in London, but up here they'd be brilliant.

Spun off a new thread to discuss that: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...apc-electric-assist-pedal-cycle-rules.284225/

 

[Ken X]

Sat in Stratford Rail Station today we noticed a group of police officers outside the station pulling over electric bikes for an inspection. They were confiscating any they decided were illegal and sending the riders on their way. When we left to catch our train they had six or seven piled up.

 

[RailExplorer]

Sat in Stratford Rail Station today we noticed a group of police officers outside the station pulling over electric bikes for an inspection. They were confiscating any they decided were illegal and sending the riders on their way. When we left to catch our train they had six or seven piled up.

I haven't actually had a single e-bike on my train since the ban kicked in, but I've had several e-scooters.

 

[Mawkie]

I haven't actually had a single e-bike on my train since the ban kicked in, but I've had several e-scooters.

Agreed. I haven't seen a single ebike since day 1, so it seems like a 100% success to me.

 

[burneside]

Agreed. I haven't seen a single ebike since day 1, so it seems like a 100% success to me.

On the day the ban came into force there were two e-bikes blocking the doorway when I got on an EL train at Canary Wharf, they alighted at Whitechapel, I would like to think they were spoken to when leaving the station.