E M R - a pretentious brand with nothing to back it up? (yes I know, mainly DFT's fault)

[WizCastro197]

Okay, sorry, I couldn't help but jump in here because I am absolutely the guy on the page that you perceive the OP to be on. To compare:

Caledonian sleeper positions itself as a luxury brand, and I believe that is absolutely backed up in the flesh, too. Frankly, they're a well presented business, with consistent brand messaging and very high levels of attention to detail that generally run into the product offered. The mk5s (bogies aside) are fantastic - the spec on them pays such diligent attention to detail, from branding on interior fittings (in a not-too-crass way), to the well considered layout and fittment of the lounge car that absolutely screams luxury above and beyond that offered by any other TOCs product (and when your lowest class of travel is a slightly better kitted out version of your nearest competitors premier offering, you can't be missing the mark too much as a luxury brand). I could go on (and on) but in the interests of not taking this in a tangential direction I'll truncate the list here.

They have their foibles, but fundamentally they are still "on wheels" (whatever type of hotel they may be) and, in my eyes, offer superb value for money when compared with the cost of the luxury hotel + first class travel alternative (which is the most viable comparison).

EMR, meanwhile... May I draw your attention the OPs list.

I can stay in the Marriott in Bournemouth for cheaper than the Caledonian Sleeper without the worries of broken toilets etc that @Iskra mentioned. Definitely not backed up 'in the flesh'. I wonder if you've ever actually been on that sleeper at all?

 

[43066]

you can’t put lipstick on a pig.

Can’t you?

You’ve clearly never seen some of the hen parties who board at Sheffield.

 

[Iskra]

Can’t you?

You’ve clearly never seen some of the hen parties who board at Sheffield.

Must be connecting from Barnsley

Just fyi, I’m not from Sheffield if you’re hoping for a nibble

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

EMR is, unfortunately, more about style than substance. Sure, mostly - but not always - the trains turn up, which is a positive, but beyond that under Abelio the franchise seems to be a mess of broken promises and failure to deliver. We have a network of two halves - the Intercity operation has been in managed decline since the glory days of Midland Mainline (worse under Stagecoach, worse even more now), while the regional operation improved after Central Trains demise but has got worse since Stagecoach bowed out.

Most noticeable - from the style rather than substance theme - is that there seems to be time and money for fancy marketing schemes, and yet not for train interior refurbishments. Likewise, the downtime and money seems to be available for repaints, but not for seats or onboard facilities. Lots of broken promises about refurbs in the franchise bid - trains to be done inside and out, wifi on every train, etc - and yet none of this has been done. What wifi there is seems to be broken quite frequently, while no trains have had it fitted during Abelio’s tenure as far as I’m away. Honestly I don’t care what colour the train is on the outside, but I do care about onboard facilities and the disgraceful state of the seats in the Meridians - which, coincidently, EMR said in a press release in May this year would be recovered, and yet experience over the last couple of weeks shows no evidence has even started: 5,400 new seat covers to be fitted at Etches Park - how long should it take before there‘s some sign of progress? Even last week parts of Derby station were being painted in EMR purple - what a waste, get the guy changing Meridian seat covers instead. But like I say - style rather than substance. The 810s were originally going to start to be introduced this year - which would just about make the state of the Meridian fleet excusable - but now it seems unlikely the new fleet will turn a wheel in public service much before the end of next year, if we‘re lucky. And of course the dreadful 180s seem set to remain.

Similarly, there’s always claims of EMR being chronically short of units, and yet last weekend there were three 156s and three 170s languishing at Barrow Hill [I know, I know, EMR apologists will soon be along citing staff training, covid, blah, blah - there’s only so long these excuses wash, and I think its expired]. And don’t even get me started on things like First Class lounges, which all other operators managed to reopen post covid while EMR’s remained shut - or used as staff accommodation in some cases. Then there’s things like clearing up rubbish, which seems to have got worse. Tidying up the tables etc during a turnround now seems to be an occasional maybe rather than a check-list item - and its horrible to get on a train at a terminus and find its still full of trash from the last trip.

Like I’ve said several times, EMR seems to be all about show and less about substance. The marketing team who seem to be living in Miles’ cloud cuckoo land might well consider this saying: you can’t put lipstick on a pig.

You might as well put this up in place of my opening post, as this summarises exactly what my point was. I’m not sure what it was in my wording that make people react defensively, but this is all I was trying to say.

 

[43066]

Must be connecting from Barnsley

Some of the EMR meridians really do need straw putting on the floors.

Just fyi, I’m not from Sheffield if you’re hoping for a nibble

Thanks for the information, I’m afraid I’m spoken for .

 

[Iskra]

Some of the EMR meridians really do need straw putting on the floors.



Thanks for the information, I’m afraid I’m spoken for .

I would have thought you’d have fit in nicely in the Soviet Republic of South Yorkshire, but I suppose your probably rather more into champagne socialism than the real stuff, with your penchant for 2nd home-based rental exploitation

 

[WizCastro197]

I would have thought you’d have fit in nicely in the Soviet Republic of South Yorkshire, but I suppose your probably rather more into champagne socialism than the real stuff, with your penchant for 2nd home-based rental exploitation

This thread got so weird so quickly

On the basis of seat coverings, as someone alluded to, I saw a video on EMR's YouTube Channel but it seems to have implied that seat coverings weren't really replaced, instead more deep cleaned giving the illusion no work had taken place when perhaps it did. However that video was posted 7 months ago so plenty of time for them to get again very dirty again.

 

[yorksrob]

I honestly don't have a massive problem with SWR (sure seat reservations would be great on longer distance services eg. Waterloo-Weymouth- or Waterloo Exeter) I guess if you live in the area with that TOC, you are more likely to notice small errors but OP lists their location as Cardiff but I am still unsure.

But it is off topic.


EMR have never said they are a luxury brand at all. Where are these false illusions coming from?


I think Miles' introduction as a cuddly toy should've been delayed until after the introduction of the 810s and 360's seat covering change. It would've worked better in the end anyway

Yes, that's true. Alternatively they could have had him saying a fond farewell to the HST's.

 

[Merle Haggard]

One area in which, in my opinion, E.M.R. excels is the service in first class. It's almost always provided and (boarding at Kettering and Leicester in the present way one gets from Wellingborough to the North) provided soon after boarding at an intermediate station, with refills also offered. The staff are friendly and seem to be pleased to be doing their job; they even make eye contact.
Interestingly, I have on occasion complimented the staff and asked why (particularly as Abellio do not have a good reputation) and the response was interesting; it was that the people they work with are pleasant, not so bothered about the top management.

P.S. I'm not sure about 'Miles' being a cuddly toy; if I was very young , I think he/it might give me nightmares...

 

[WizCastro197]

Yes, that's true. Alternatively they could have had him saying a fond farewell to the HST's.

Yes, if they wanted a good time to introduce the handsome dude, it should’ve either been at the start of the franchise where it wasn’t so awkward, he would’ve helped with the transition into a new brand well if he came out as a toy then or after the 810s introduction to symbolise a new fresh start away from EMT. Not in this awkward half EMR Quarter EMT wand the remaining 1/4 other TOCs

 

[paul1609]

I do see your point, EMR does feel more like some of the bargain basement franchises we’ve seen in the past, whilst the Intercity operation seems to be trying to emulate Lumo in terms of packing people in (this isn’t anything new though, it wasn’t much different under EMT). Agree the 360 service has been something of a mess too. I suspect it will probably all come reasonably good within a couple of years though.

Realistically EMR isn't really a long distance intercity operator Sheffield and Nottingham are both actually shorter than SWRs Weymouth and Exeter Routes. If you look back to privatisation the MML was a large loss maker along with Cross Country.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do want to apologise to anyone that perceives this thread as a childish attack on EMR; I’m very keen to assure you that my intention was not to create any drama or hostility, simply an observation. I guess it’s influenced by the many wonderful experiences I had under East Midlands Trains, though admittedly I never travelled with them in their earliest years.

I’d also like to add that there are a good deal of things I very much like about EMR - I believe their Meridians have the most comfortable standard class interior in the UK, I highly commend the plans for 5 carriages between Norwich and Nottingham, the seat trial of the Aurora shows they’re interested in customer feedback, and the Meridians look smart in the interim livery. They also are able to run their planned Intercity service without distress from the roster issue affecting LNER/Avanti.

My intention was to comment on how EMR comes across rather than stating that they’re lazy or something. I simply thought the big promotion was a little premature for now.

 

[WizCastro197]

Realistically EMR isn't really a long distance intercity operator Sheffield and Nottingham are both actually shorter than SWRs Weymouth and Exeter Routes. If you look back to privatisation the MML was a large loss maker along with Cross Country.

What how? What are you basing that off? How long it takes or mileage?

 

[paul1609]

What how? What are you basing that off? How long it takes or mileage?

Both, St Pancras to Sheffield is shorter than Waterloo to Exeter, ST P to Nottingham is shorter than Waterloo to Weymouth.

 

[louis97]

As a resident of Sheffield and a regular user since Midland Mainline days there are three reasons I have given up on EMR. First, the major reason is price, try booking months in advance it's a stock £87 for a day return. I save sometimes half that going via Doncaster. The other two are very minor niggles, in first on a weekend no free pop, only water or orange juice. Second, which is not EMRs fault, at King's Cross it's way quicker into the Underground.

You don't get free pop on weekdays. As far as cold drinks go Apple Juice is also available. The offer is the same Monday to Saturday now as far as I am aware, the plan is to have a consistent offering all week (including Sunday). We'll see if that happens however.

 

[WizCastro197]

Both, St Pancras to Sheffield is shorter than Waterloo to Exeter, ST P to Nottingham is shorter than Waterloo to Weymouth.

Sorry I thought you were saying STP-Sheffield was shorter than Waterloo-Weymouth. I do think how long it takes is a bad way of measuring in this instance.

But what to you classes as an intercity operator? They operate between large cities and have routes over 100 miles?

Maybe I’ll start a new thread if one hasn’t been created.

 

[Energy]

Most noticeable - from the style rather than substance theme - is that there seems to be time and money for fancy marketing schemes, and yet not for train interior refurbishments

The best advert is a modern train which is clean and runs on time (or only a minute or two late). People will tell their friends if it was a good experience, this is a lot better advert than anything on TV. The anglia 755s are a good example of this.

Future adverts will also be less effective if the viewer subsequently gets on an EMR train and its shortformed, overcrowded, pricey and late.

EMR isn't the only TOC who doesn't seem to realise this...

 

[paul1609]

Sorry I thought you were saying STP-Sheffield was shorter than Waterloo-Weymouth. I do think how long it takes is a bad way of measuring in this instance.

But what to you classes as an intercity operator? They operate between large cities and have routes over 100 miles?

Maybe I’ll start a new thread if one hasn’t been created.

Maybe back in the day but nowadays most routes under 200miles are primarily commuter routes served by EMUs with minimum facilities

 

[WizCastro197]

The best advert is a modern train which is clean and runs on time (or only a minute or two late). People will tell their friends if it was a good experience, this is a lot better advert than anything on TV. The anglia 755s are a good example of this.

Future adverts will also be less effective if the viewer subsequently gets on an EMR train and its shortformed, overcrowded, pricey and late.

EMR isn't the only TOC who doesn't seem to realise this...

Well all EMR seem to market is that toy but generally out of Leicester, their trains aren’t really cancelled and are only a few minutes late which fits your criteria partially?

 

[Dore & Totley]

You don't get free pop on weekdays. As far as cold drinks go Apple Juice is also available. The offer is the same Monday to Saturday now as far as I am aware, the plan is to have a consistent offering all week (including Sunday). We'll see if that happens however.

I really can't fathom they are saving a fortune by not giving out a bottle of pepsi max. It's weird.

 

[tbtc]

Intestingly, we were told that the H.S.T.s made diagramming inefficient because they only worked on the St. Pancras - Nottingham axis (forced lengthy lay-overs at one end to provide a clock face service). But the 180s (apart from the last run) only run St Pancras - Nottingham.

HSTs generally needed to occupy the a platform at St Pancras for sixty five minutes (i.e. they couldn’t be turned round in five minutes, so had to wait over an hour before heading back to Nottingham)

Not great when you only have a maximum of four platforms available (thanks HS1!) and want to introduce a second Corby service

HSTs generally only ran Nottingham - London - Nottingham services, plus the “placing” journeys from/ to Neville Hill

The standardisation of five coach 810s is a long time overdue

The 180's unreliability was a known problem long before they reached EMR. It was being pointed out on this forum as soon as the DfT's insane, half-baked plan to replace the HST fleet with them materialised.

That’s our new Government overlords for you though

I asked for other candidates for a fleet with 50% availability but I overlooked the Connect 360s (11 out of 20, so slightly better...)

ScotRail would be delighted to get half of their twenty five HSTs in service on the same day; availability seems to often be in single figures at the start of service (and sometimes the number is lower after a few hours of operation)

But what to you classes as an intercity operator? They operate between large cities and have routes over 100 miles?

That’s part of the problem on the MML - BR had this binary “intercity” / “not Intercity” approach but the MML didn’t fit neatly into these - hence still having Class 45s running “flagship” services for a long time (until the ECML electrification freed up some HSTs), having two coach 170s doing Nottingham to London, that kind of thing - so people dismiss the MML because it’s not as swanky as GNER/ VTWC etc but some routes on the MML have more in common with trains from Northampton/ Norwich to London

 

[yorksrob]

--

 

[43066]

but I suppose your probably rather more into champagne socialism than the real stuff

Into socialism ? I think you’re confusing me with someone else.

your penchant for 2nd home-based rental exploitation

I was a landlord for years, yes. Not an exploitative one. Perhaps a little too much interest in my financial circumstances being shown here….

The best advert is a modern train which is clean and runs on time (or only a minute or two late).

Like (most) EMR 360s and meridians, then!?

but some routes on the MML have more in common with trains from Northampton/ Norwich to London

I think the introduction of the 360s has largely addressed this, with generally no IC services now stopping south of Kettering. The Notts/Derby/Sheffield services to London are now more competitive with the ECML/WCML alternatives, 810s are on the way, and who wants to arrive into the brutalist-monstrosity-that-is-Euston anyway….

 

[43096]

That’s part of the problem on the MML - BR had this binary “intercity” / “not Intercity” approach but the MML didn’t fit neatly into these - hence still having Class 45s running “flagship” services for a long time (until the ECML electrification freed up some HSTs)

The Peaks came off the flagship services in 1982/83, replaced by HST sets transferred from Western Region and Cross-Country routes. There were residual loco-hauled workings until another 2 or 3 HSTs were made available, but the loco-hauled workings were very much in the minority after 1983.

 

[Iskra]

I was a landlord for years, yes. Not an exploitative one. Perhaps a little too much interest in my financial circumstances being shown here….

Well considering you posted that you charged 50% above market rate, I would beg to differ. And while simultaneously having the audacity to argue for a tax-payer funded payrise too, excuse me if I don't get my violin out for your 0300 alarm calls.

 

[43066]

Well considering you posted that you charged 50% above market rate, I would beg to differ.

Excuse me!? You’ll find, if you read back, that I never posted anything of the sort. I simply observed that the rental income was above the mortgage payment.

That post was also on a different thread, and on a topic unrelated to what is being discussed in this thread, so I’m unsure why you keep bringing it up?!

excuse me if I don't get my violin out for your 0300 alarm calls.

This is too personal and more than a little weird. Please drop it!

 

[Iskra]

Excuse me!? You’ll find, if you read back, that I never posted anything of the sort. I simply observed that the rental income was above the mortgage payment.

That post was also on a different thread, and on a topic unrelated to what is being discussed in this thread, so I’m unsure why you keep bringing it up?!



This is too personal and more than a little weird. Please drop it!

Well don't put it in the public domain then!

 

[Mag_seven]

Sorry but this thread is generating too much ill feeling and off topic posts to be allowed to continue.