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E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

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jon0844

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The problem is there's nothing stopping people importing and fitting stuff that hasn't been certified and in some cases is counterfeit or falsely declared as safe. Then people hack stuff in their bedroom and ride on public roads etc.

The police should enforce the stuff on the roads, and the Government should regulate the other stuff. Neither are doing this.
 
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takno

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The problem is there's nothing stopping people importing and fitting stuff that hasn't been certified and in some cases is counterfeit or falsely declared as safe. Then people hack stuff in their bedroom and ride on public roads etc.

The police should enforce the stuff on the roads, and the Government should regulate the other stuff. Neither are doing this.
The biggest problems are that sites like Amazon and Wish are allowed to operate as marketplaces for thoroughly dodgy operators without assuming any responsibility for what's being sold on their platform, it's become pathetically easy to set up a dodgy company in the UK, and we've basically eliminated trading standards enforcement.

By the time you've got the stage of the police chasing people round cities trying to stop them from riding the perfect getaway devices, then the battle is pretty much already lost.
 

Railcar

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At East Croydon (a GTR station) there were notices banning E-unicycles. I asked one of the guys on the platform if he'd actually seen an electric unicycle at the staion. "Just one" he confessed.
 

geoffk

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GWR appears to have a new on-train announcement, at least on local trains, saying that e-scooters are banned but not e-bikes. There's understandable concern about battery safety but this applies to both scooters and bikes. There was a recent item on the TV news about a family in Lancashire whose e-bike battery caught fire and their house burned down.
 

SargeNpton

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At East Croydon (a GTR station) there were notices banning E-unicycles. I asked one of the guys on the platform if he'd actually seen an electric unicycle at the staion. "Just one" he confessed.
There are at least two in Northampton. Of those that I have seen, one is always on the pavement and the other's rider shows complete disregard for the rules of the road - he is likely to end up under a vehicle sooner or later.
 

northernbelle

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GWR appears to have a new on-train announcement, at least on local trains, saying that e-scooters are banned but not e-bikes. There's understandable concern about battery safety but this applies to both scooters and bikes. There was a recent item on the TV news about a family in Lancashire whose e-bike battery caught fire and their house burned down.
The concern around batteries is greater with e-Scooters than it is for e-Bikes due to a number of factors. GWR does not permit e-Bikes to be charged on board though.
 

jon0844

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There are at least two in Northampton. Of those that I have seen, one is always on the pavement and the other's rider shows complete disregard for the rules of the road - he is likely to end up under a vehicle sooner or later.
I've only seen the e-unicycles in London and like you say, the riders seem to be wanting to ride in such a way to antagonise others rather than actually get anywhere.

Never seen one on a train though.
 

Pugwash

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I am slightly confused by all this, E Scooters are not legal on UK roads apart from the Hire Schemes around the country, Police appear to have given up on enforcement entirely.
 

jon0844

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Herts Police told me they couldn't take any more and were waiting to clear out the ones they confiscated early on, so now they don't do anything!
 

kkong

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Not all home-made e-bike conversions are illegal. While many are, several vendors sell street-legal kits.

I suggest you read the report from Electrical Safety First which discusses this.

Anyone retrofitting an e-bike kit to a standard bike becomes a manufacturer and is therefore liable for demonstrating compliance with the regulations.

When it comes to conversion kits, there is no dedicated standard.
The product being sold is not a finished product, and in many cases, does not include all of the components required to build a complete e-bike.
Many conversion kits available online do not include the battery, an essential component of any e-bike.
The selection of a suitable battery and charger is left to the consumer to source and ensure compatibility.
When a consumer converts a standard bicycle to an e-bike, in the eyes of the law, they take on the role of a manufacturer (perhaps unknowingly), and in doing so, take full responsibility for safety and conformity to applicable legislation.

There are also risks associated with modifying a standard bicycle that may not take into account the manufacturer’s original design and intended use.
Standard bicycles often have a frame and braking system that was never designed or intended to take the extra weight of conversion kit components, or handle the torque and stresses of the electric motor, even with a conversion kit that is designed to modify the bike within the legal framework of an EAPC classification of a ‘normal pedal bike’ (Figure 13).
 

takno

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I suggest you read the report from Electrical Safety First which discusses this.

Anyone retrofitting an e-bike kit to a standard bike becomes a manufacturer and is therefore liable for demonstrating compliance with the regulations.
Reading the bits you've quoted makes it entirely clear that the retrofit kits aren't illegal, and that fitter just assumes legal responsibility for any failure and damage. The point being that the police really don't have any basis for confiscating a retrofitted e-bike. Even in the case of e-scooters etc, the basis for confiscation isn't fire safety - it's road safety.

Certainly the train companies could (and possibly should) require all e-vehicles to be manufactured as such and marked with a genuine kitemark. There's literally no chance of them effectively enforcing that though, and the easiest path to increased safety in a way that they might be able to actually enforce is probably just to ban everything except e-bikes.
 

SargeNpton

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Reading the bits you've quoted makes it entirely clear that the retrofit kits aren't illegal, and that fitter just assumes legal responsibility for any failure and damage. The point being that the police really don't have any basis for confiscating a retrofitted e-bike. Even in the case of e-scooters etc, the basis for confiscation isn't fire safety - it's road safety.

Certainly the train companies could (and possibly should) require all e-vehicles to be manufactured as such and marked with a genuine kitemark. There's literally no chance of them effectively enforcing that though, and the easiest path to increased safety in a way that they might be able to actually enforce is probably just to ban everything except e-bikes.
If they notice that an e-bike can be ridden without the rider also pedalling then that's a good indicator of an illegal machine. They are supposed to be electrically assisted up to a maximum of 15mph rather then purely electric. Many of the Deliveroo/Uber Eats/Just East rider I see fail that visual check.

If they don't need pedal assistance then they are motor vehicles, which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding driving licences, tax and insurance.
 

kkong

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Reading the bits you've quoted makes it entirely clear that the retrofit kits aren't illegal, and that fitter just assumes legal responsibility for any failure and damage. The point being that the police really don't have any basis for confiscating a retrofitted e-bike. Even in the case of e-scooters etc, the basis for confiscation isn't fire safety - it's road safety.

They do, because with home-made conversions, there is a vanishingly small likelihood that the person who did the conversion will have issued either an EU Declaration of Conformity to BS EN 15194 or a UK Declaration of Conformity to The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations (as amended).

The user will therefore have no means of demonstrating that the bike conforms with the regulations.

I attach examples of the labelling from my (legal) KTM e-bike. There are also separate Declarations of Conformity by Bosch for each of the the motor, battery, charger and control unit.
 

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Benjwri

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and the easiest path to increased safety in a way that they might be able to actually enforce is probably just to ban everything except e-bikes.
Anything that isn’t an e-bike is effectively banned anyways as most come under the category of motor vehicles technically, and are therefore not legal.

Regardless it is entirely unenforced, and most police turn a blind eye to it even in the case of serious injury and damage being caused.
 
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takno

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Regardless it is entirely unenforced, and most police turn a blind eye to it even in the case of serious injury and damage being caused.
When they do try to enforce the rules of course they have a history of chasing children to their death in traffic and then having to deal with a resulting riot. I can understand why they might choose not to bother.

Notwithstanding that in all cases the problem is that we are completely failing to control the import and supply of these large and mostly clearly illegal devices to the UK. By the time you're chasing people up the road on them you're already playing a losing game.
 

kkong

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Anything that isn’t an e-scooter is effectively banned anyways as most come under the category of motor vehicles technically, and are therefore not legal.

I think you meant to say that everything which isn't an e-bike (specifically, an "EAPC") is classed as a motor vehicle and therefore illegal?
 

Benjwri

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I think you meant to say that everything which isn't an e-bike (specifically, an "EAPC") is classed as a motor vehicle and therefore illegal?
You would be correct, have fixed it.

When they do try to enforce the rules of course they have a history of chasing children to their death in traffic and then having to deal with a resulting riot. I can understand why they might choose not to bother.
Yes however from personal experience they are terrible. About 9 months ago I was hospitalised after being hit by an unlicensed e-scooter riding on a footpath at speed round a blind bend.

The accident caused thousands of pounds in bills for injuries not covered by the NHS, and damage to pretty much everything I was carrying. The police refused to even take a report, and I am still trying to battle both the police and my insurance, as the insurance will not pay out without a crime reference number.
 
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najaB

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They do, because with home-made conversions, there is a vanishingly small likelihood that the person who did the conversion will have issued either an EU Declaration of Conformity to BS EN 15194 or a UK Declaration of Conformity to The Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Regulations (as amended).

The user will therefore have no means of demonstrating that the bike conforms with the regulations.
I think you have things a bit bass akward there. It's up to the authorities to prove that a bike doesn't conform with the regulations, not for the owner to prove that it does. While a certificate of conformance would be grounds to prevent a seizure, lack of one isn't grounds for the police to take it.
 

kkong

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I think you have things a bit bass akward there. It's up to the authorities to prove that a bike doesn't conform with the regulations, not for the owner to prove that it does. While a certificate of conformance would be grounds to prevent a seizure, lack of one isn't grounds for the police to take it.

Prima facie lack of conformity would be demonstrated if the bike itself (i.e. not any component part(s) of the bike) isn't marked in accordance with the regulations.

Who's the "manufacturer" for a home-conversion and are they marking their e-bikes in accordance with this?
I don't think so.

The vehicle must be either:

marked with the following information:
  • the manufacturer
  • the maximum speed at which the motor can propel the vehicle in m.p.h. or km/h
  • the maximum continuous rated power of the motor
    (this mainly covers vehicles constructed to current European standards and legislation)
or

fitted with a plate showing:
  • the manufacturer
  • the nominal voltage of the battery
  • the maximum continuous rated output of the motor
    (this mainly covers vehicles in use prior to April 2015).
 

The exile

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The concern around batteries is greater with e-Scooters than it is for e-Bikes due to a number of factors. GWR does not permit e-Bikes to be charged on board though.
Is it not the case at the moment that privately owned e-scooters are illegal on the public highway? Difficult to see any justification for permitting them on board trains if that is the case.
 

kkong

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Is it not the case at the moment that privately owned e-scooters are illegal on the public highway? Difficult to see any justification for permitting them on board trains if that is the case.

Yes, they are (with the exceptions of trials in specific local authority areas).

I believe that all mainline TOCs have now banned all electric "micro mobility" devices (except e-bikes) from their stations and on trains.
 

Benjwri

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with the exceptions of trials in specific local authority areas
For which they are very clearly banned by the trial operators to be taken on public transport. It's previously been an issue in Bath and Bristol, particularly with people trying to bring them between the two.
 

najaB

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Prima facie lack of conformity would be demonstrated if the bike itself (i.e. not any component part(s) of the bike) isn't marked in accordance with the regulations.

Who's the "manufacturer" for a home-conversion and are they marking their e-bikes in accordance with this?
I don't think so.
While the text you've quoted is found on Gov.UK (link for those playing along at home: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet), the actual legislation doesn't require that the bike carries any specific marking.

Link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1168/made
 

kkong

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While the text you've quoted is found on Gov.UK (link for those playing along at home: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet), the actual legislation doesn't require that the bike carries any specific marking.

Link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1168/made

Yes it does.

The marking requirement is defined in The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/474/regulation/2/made

Please refer to section 2 (3) (b) of the Amendment for the details.

An earlier version of the marking requirement was also included in the originally enacted The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1983.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1176/contents/made
 

Ediswan

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Yes it does.

The marking requirement is defined in The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2015.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/474/regulation/2/made

Please refer to section 2 (3) (b) of the Amendment for the details.

An earlier version of the marking requirement was also included in the originally enacted The Pedal Cycles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1983.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1983/1176/contents/made
What is the penalty for not displaying the required markings ?
 

Roast Veg

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Are you suggesting that the police should run a campaign to stop and seize legal cars?

Otherwise, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Well not directly, but perhaps proliferation of micromobility might mean we can start banning them from more places...
 

Benjwri

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Well not directly, but perhaps proliferation of micromobility might mean we can start banning them from more places...
Legal cars don’t run around hitting people in the middle of a park. They also have licence plates, so when they do hit you the police at least say they’ll investigate, not that there’s no chance of catching them so they won’t even take a report as it makes their numbers look bad. (Which to be clear is exactly what I was initially told when I reported my accident).

Personally I don’t think we should be banning cars from anywhere till the government sorts itself out. As it is the buses in Bath sometimes just don’t turn up for an hour straight, and the trains decide they’re going on strike a few times a month. Unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of not working when they train drivers are strike, so I need a car.
 

Roast Veg

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My point that more people are killed by legal cars than illegal e-scooters stands.
 

Mag_seven

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Looks like we are now well away from discussing the e-scooter ban on GTR so we will bring the discussion to a close now.
 
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