E-Tickets availability?

[stssts1985]

Does anyone understand the logic behind whether an e-ticket is available or not?
There seems to be some TOCs that don't touch them like c2c, southeastern and merseyrail
is there somewhere i can reference (like brfares) what delivery methods are available

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately BR Fares doesn't show where e-tickets are available; this data comes from a separate feed (RCS) to the fares data. E-ticket availability remains a complete hotch-potch for now, sometimes even varying on a particular journey based on the ticket type! The only publicly available method to check it is to use a retailer that you know supports e-tickets, and then see whether it offers you them.

Just to add to the complexity, note that Trainline (which includes their whitelabel clients, such as XC, GA, EMR, WMT and ScotRail) will sometimes offer an e-ticket where other retailers can't. This is because they are de facto exempt from using RCS data and use their own data instead.

E-ticket availability is continuing to improve, with Southeastern and ScotRail both being in the process of rolling them out more widely as station barriers and staff ticket checking facilities are upgraded. Unfortunately I imagine Merseyrail, TfL and TfW will remain hold-outs for a long time to come, as they aren't under DfT control and like to do their own thing.

 

[stssts1985]

Unfortunately BR Fares doesn't show where e-tickets are available; this data comes from a separate feed (RCS) to the fares data. E-ticket availability remains a complete hotch-potch for now, sometimes even varying on a particular journey based on the ticket type! The only publicly available method to check it is to use a retailer that you know supports e-tickets, and then see whether it offers you them.

Just to add to the complexity, note that Trainline (which includes their whitelabel clients, such as XC, GA, EMR, WMT and ScotRail) will sometimes offer an e-ticket where other retailers can't. This is because they are de facto exempt from using RCS data and use their own data instead.

E-ticket availability is continuing to improve, with Southeastern and ScotRail both being in the process of rolling them out more widely as station barriers and staff ticket checking facilities are upgraded. Unfortunately I imagine Merseyrail, TfL and TfW will remain hold-outs for a long time to come, as they aren't under DfT control and like to do their own thing.

thanks for this, i did think it must be a of a hassle of a process for the TOCs. Really interesting you say that about Trainline and I hadn't really put 2 and 2 together with trainline vs. emr. it is a great app and i actually dont mind paying a small booking fee on certain fares to a company who are leading and investing into their product.

 

[Watershed]

thanks for this, i did think it must be a of a hassle of a process for the TOCs. Really interesting you say that about Trainline and I hadn't really put 2 and 2 together with trainline vs. emr. it is a great app and i actually dont mind paying a small booking fee on certain fares to a company who are leading and investing into their product.

There is no booking fee when using the TOC client versions of Trainline such as XC/EMR etc., or indeed most other third party retailers. By all means feel free to use Trainline, but just know that there are many other retailers out there that offer you the same ticket for less, or with more generous conditions (such as no admin fees for changes/refunds).

I think it's also worth pointing out that Trainline aren't really different here because of their investment, but because of various historical reasons. The industry body, the RDG, effectively turns a blind eye to their non-compliance with the rules.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I’ve a fairly good idea why they are aren’t available , there are guidelines as to what can/cant be enabled but some retailers seem to ignore or simply not use the RCS data

 

[stssts1985]

There is no booking fee when using the TOC client versions of Trainline such as XC/EMR etc., or indeed most other third party retailers. By all means feel free to use Trainline, but just know that there are many other retailers out there that offer you the same ticket for less, or with more generous conditions (such as no admin fees for changes/refunds).

I think it's also worth pointing out that Trainline aren't really different here because of their investment, but because of various historical reasons. The industry body, the RDG, effectively turns a blind eye to their non-compliance with the rules.

Oh really, I didn't know that. I know there sometimes a booking fee but didn't know the ticket could cost more! I don't think they are unique in split tickets. I've seen you can do ticket swap on northern and LNER via seat frog which is a great idea - not tried it yet

I’ve a fairly good idea why they are aren’t available , there are guidelines as to what can/cant be enabled but some retailers seem to ignore or simply not use the RCS data

What sort of things are we talking please? What shouldn't be enabled?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Anything cross London and anything involving a Merseyrail operated station .

 

[miklcct]

Anything cross London

However if the cross London is not valid on the Underground it may be e-ticketed. (e.g. for a direct Thameslink journey)

 

[Wallsendmag]

However if the cross London is not valid on the Underground it may be e-ticketed. (e.g. for a direct Thameslink journey)

I am aware but it's a general rule, also the ticket will usually still have underground validity so you'd need to be very careful

 

[Snow1964]

I have just bought tickets for tomorrow on GWR services using this forums split ticket site, and e-tickets were not available, so just popped to station (luckily only 2 minute walk) to collect.

Two together, from Bradford-on-Avon to Weymouth (change at Westbury), Saturday 7th October, restriction QS (not Mon-Fri)

Bit surprised GWR don't offer E-Tickets for journeys wholly on their trains.

 

[OscarH]

Bit surprised GWR don't offer E-Tickets for journeys wholly on their trains.

It's probably an oversight rather than intentional. It's far far more common a flow should be enabled but isn't than vice versa, and with most TOCs they'll happily fix it once it raised by a retailer. Some TOCs are better than others here, GWR aren't usually too had, GTR eTicket availability is hopeless.

Really it's only the TOCs fault to a certain degree, the system really was not optimised to be used in this way, and in my opinion needs completely replacing rather than the backwards-compatible patches made so far. It's really aimed at trials rather than enabling a ticket for most of the country.

I'd rather see a rules based system for eTickets to be honest, eg. no cross-London or Merseyrail (who insist on living in the past for no apparent reason, at least TfL nominally have one), plus other exceptions, like the overground. Whitelists of every origin-destination-route-ticket combination allowed seem inappropriate for this job, it leads to so many combinations being missed, and missing things not being easy to detect. But I don't think certain TOCs especially would go for that

(do send the details to customer support and it can be sent to GWR if there's no obvious reason)

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've just found today that I'd missed Todmorden from some RCS updates,all fixed now.

 

[Snow1964]

(do send the details to customer support and it can be sent to GWR if there's no obvious reason)

Thanks, do you know an email for customer support (it was bought using the ticket link at top of the forum).

Although the idea of a customer having to tell the company, rather than someone in ticket retailer or GWR scanning list of transactions that couldn't be e-ticket wholly within GWR, seems wrong to me. From what you say sounds like it won't be that big a list.

 

[OscarH]

Thanks, do you know an email for customer support (it was bought using the ticket link at top of the forum).

Although the idea of a customer having to tell the company, rather than someone in ticket retailer or GWR scanning list of transactions that couldn't be e-ticket wholly within GWR, seems wrong to me. From what you say sounds like it won't be that big a list.

It's customer.support at trainsplit.com

I agree I think there's more that can be done here internally, though the list will be quite substantial across all TOCs, there's a lot of missing flows. It is on the radar for work here, but it's one of those things where more pressing issues keep appearing

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I booked two e-tickets from home this week, Flint-Preston (off-peak return) and Preston-Edinburgh (off-peak day return).
I started with TfW and had no problem with the Flint-Preston e-ticket.
I then tried to book the Edinburgh ticket with TfW, but it would only offer TPE services and fares (not any permitted which I wanted for an Avanti service).
Next was Avanti, and they offered the right ticket but only as an m-ticket (or what they called a ticket on your phone) which I didn't want.
Finally, I used Northern, who offered the right ticket, as an e-ticket.
No doubt mandatory Avanti reservations play a part in this, but Northern simply allocated random reservations without my requesting them.

The differences between TOCs are baffling, really.

 

[OscarH]

I booked two e-tickets from home this week, Flint-Preston (off-peak return) and Preston-Edinburgh (off-peak day return).
I started with TfW and had no problem with the Flint-Preston e-ticket.
I then tried to book the Edinburgh ticket with TfW, but it would only offer TPE services and fares (not any permitted which I wanted for an Avanti service).
Next was Avanti, and they offered the right ticket but only as an m-ticket (or what they called a ticket on your phone) which I didn't want.
Finally, I used Northern, who offered the right ticket, as an e-ticket.

The differences between TOCs are baffling, really.

No idea what would have caused the TfW app not to offer Avanti services.

With the difference between Avanti and Northern I had assumed it was because Trainline take a relaxed approach to the industry requirements, however all the fares I could see are actually eTicket enabled, so it's odd Avanti didn't. Do you have a brfares link to the fare, or its cost, I couldn't find an off peak day return that was any permitted, only via Carlisle or TPE only

 

[Wallsendmag]

Thanks, do you know an email for customer support (it was bought using the ticket link at top of the forum).

Although the idea of a customer having to tell the company, rather than someone in ticket retailer or GWR scanning list of transactions that couldn't be e-ticket wholly within GWR, seems wrong to me. From what you say sounds like it won't be that big a list.

When LNER introduced 20 extra Advance tickets last year there were something like 34 million lines of data to update. It's fairly easy to miss some. The updated version of RCS is much better but still that's an awful lot of work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No idea what would have caused the TfW app not to offer Avanti services.
With the difference between Avanti and Northern I had assumed it was because Trainline take a relaxed approach to the industry requirements, however all the fares I could see are actually eTicket enabled, so it's odd Avanti didn't. Do you have a brfares link to the fare, or its cost, I couldn't find an off peak day return that was any permitted, only via Carlisle or TPE only

Actually I meant the Via Carlisle fare as that is essentially the Any Permitted fare (Avanti and TPE).

 

[OscarH]

Actually I meant the Via Carlisle fare as that is essentially the Any Permitted fare (Avanti and TPE).

Yeah, Avanti should have offered that as an eTicket

When LNER introduced 20 extra Advance tickets last year there were something like 34 million lines of data to update. It's fairly easy to miss some. The updated version of RCS is much better but still that's an awful lot of work.

Not really sustainable long term!

 

[Adam Williams]

The whole thing is not fit for purpose, and you can bet that if Trainline were forced to use RCS, changes would be made.

Some retailers will take the time to play whackamole on behalf of customers and try and get TOC pricing managers to fix their data in RCS, but it's quite time-consuming and it takes time away from actual work. Other retailers won't have customer-facing staff with the right skillset to look into E-Ticketability issues.

Some TOCs need chasing repeatedly to even acknowledge emails (some are genuinely great and will get things resolved on the same day) which is particularly frustrating. These TOCs would do well to re-familiarise themselves with some of their obligations in relation to Smart Ticketing (of which digital barcode tickets are a key fulfilment method) that form part of their rail passenger contracts, I think.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If anyone spots any LNER flows that they think should be enabled drop me a PM

 

[Adam Williams]

If anyone spots any LNER flows that they think should be enabled drop me a PM

I think it's often the case that the operators most willing to help here are the ones with the least problems! I suppose it makes sense, really. Genuinely can't remember having any significant issues with LNER-priced flows when it comes to RCS.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You hadn't travelled from Todmorden then ? oops

 

[Adam Williams]

You hadn't travelled from Todmorden then ? oops

Neither me nor any likely-to-complain-about-it customers, seemingly

Too north for me, though I have some colleagues in & from that part of the world - I hear the scenery is nice.

 

[alistairlees]

I think the time has come to get rid of RCS (for eTickets) and replace it with some simple business rules

Fulfil all point to point station-to-station flows to eTicket except
+ London (Maltese Cross)
Merseyrail leg
some ticket types (very limited)

It would be a lot simpler. And actually it was alwys the intention once eTickets became near-universal.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It’s not all about eTickets though is it? We need CCST adding to RCS so we can start remov8ng flows/products

 

[Adam Williams]

I'd rather see a rules based system for eTickets to be honest, eg. no cross-London or Merseyrail

I think the time has come to get rid of RCS (for eTickets) and replace it with some simple business rules

Agreed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It’s not all about eTickets though is it? We need CCST adding to RCS so we can start remov8ng flows/products

I can foresee trouble ahead...

 

[AdamWW]

E-ticket availability is continuing to improve, with Southeastern and ScotRail both being in the process of rolling them out more widely as station barriers and staff ticket checking facilities are upgraded. Unfortunately I imagine Merseyrail, TfL and TfW will remain hold-outs for a long time to come, as they aren't under DfT control and like to do their own thing.

Where don't TfW offer e-tickets?

I've just done some test bookings on Trainsplit for various TfW routes and they were all shown as e-ticketable.

 

[MikeWh]

Unfortunately I imagine Merseyrail, TfL and TfW will remain hold-outs for a long time to come, as they aren't under DfT control and like to do their own thing.

Gotta pick you up with TfL. They are very much under some sort of DfT control until such time as they no longer need bailing out with government funding. Also, they are (or will soon start) trialing barcode readers at a select number of stations.