E-Tickets being inaccessible/difficult to use for the elderly.

[Watershed]

How does this fit with the (old?) rule that tickets are not transferable? That used to be heavily emphasised, and I took it to mean that you couldn't buy a ticket and give or sell it to someone/anyone else.

Tickets are now explicitly transferable unless issued in someone's name (e.g. a season ticket). They can even be sold, provided no more than the face value is paid.

Even before this easement of the rules, it was permissible to buy a ticket on someone else's behalf.

 

[JBuchananGB]

An interesting thread. As a person in receipt of state pension I feel I might fall into someone's definition of elderly. I recently decided to avail myself of Northern's flash sale. As far as I know tickets in that sale were not for sale at either of the staffed MerseyRail ticket offices near here. Accordingly I decided to use Northern's web site. No doubt someone will tell me whether I could have used RailUKForum's ticket selling site, but I admit I didn't try. I think that the only fulfilment method which I was offered was E-ticket. On previous occasions when using a Northern Sale I have managed to have CCSTs posted to me. For two travellers travelling on a journey with split ticketing (A -> B sale ticket, B -> C standard advance and return) the system generated no less than EIGHT PDF files, of which TWO pairs had the same file names, even though they contained different tickets.
I have used my printer to print all eight, on separate sheets of A4 paper, guillotined them into strips to remove the surplus paper and stapled them together in the sequence needed for the journey.
I think I preferred the method of having CCSTs posted to me, but nowadays I could use ToD by taking the collection code to a MerseyRail station.

 

[TUC]

It is accessing e-tickets themselves, rather than the act of purchasing online, which can be problematic for visually impaired people. Navigating one's way through a ticketing app is doable, if you have the extended time it takes to do so and provided pop-ups don't appear (I know from my wife that nothing is more frustrating than one's screen appearing to have frozen when actually it is an 'accept cookies' pop- up that has appeared at the bottom of the screen without warning.).

What is more problematic is finding one's way to the ticket when travelling if it is stored in in a particular section of the app. If you use voiceover software (by which the screen contents are spoken aloud), it often involves double or triple taps to move between apps and app pages, so it is not straightforward.

Some websites are also much better than others in placing audible labels for each text box that describe what needs to be entered in there. It is very frustrating to reach box which just states 'text box' rather than, for example, 'departure station'.

It is not correct, as some have suggested above, that all tickets have a collect at station option. For example, I've just checked TPE's site, and an Advance fares for next week are only available as e-tickets.

 

[yorkie]

..... For two travellers travelling on a journey with split ticketing (A -> B sale ticket, B -> C standard advance and return) the system generated no less than EIGHT PDF files, of which TWO pairs had the same file names, even though they contained different tickets.
I have used my printer to print all eight, on separate sheets of A4 paper, guillotined them into strips to remove the surplus paper and stapled them together in the sequence needed for the journey..

That's because you searched for each ticket separately, doing your own manual split ticketing.

In contrast, Trainsplit would give you one PDF per passenger journey and it would print neatly on a single piece of paper (or potentially two for longer journeys; you can choose how many pages to print per piece of paper). I've done that when purchasing tickets for relatives. It's easy.

I think I preferred the method of having CCSTs posted to me, but nowadays I could use ToD by taking the collection code to a MerseyRail station.

This costs the retailer a lot of money compared to e-tickets

 

[AlterEgo]

That's because you searched for each ticket separately, doing your own manual split ticketing.

In contrast, Trainsplit would give you one PDF per passenger journey and it would print neatly on a single piece of paper (or potentially two for longer journeys; you can choose how many pages to print per piece of paper). I've done that when purchasing tickets for relatives. It's easy.

You can, of course, just display it on a smartphone if you have one too. About two thirds of over 65s have a smartphone, which, given the housebound and/or immobile nature of the very elderly at the top end of that age bracket, works out as an overwhelming majority of *mobile and capable* state pensioners with the tech to use etickets on the phone.

TrainSplit is easily the best retailer of tickets - I use the RailUK-branded site for nearly all of my purchases. I can bake in two hours in Nottingham for example, into an itinerary, to get lunch, or pick my exact seat on many trains.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think I preferred the method of having CCSTs posted to me, but nowadays I could use ToD by taking the collection code to a MerseyRail station.

Just wait until we post you an eTicket

 

[JBuchananGB]

That's because you searched for each ticket separately, doing your own manual split ticketing.

I did things this way on the Northern web site, because it involved Flash Sale tickets. For future reference would the Trainsplit site have been able to do me the Southport to Hebden Bridge round trip for £7.10 each Senior Railcard holder consisting of 4 Advance singles each:
SOP -> MCV £1; MCV -> HBD £2.30; HBD -> MCV £2.30; MCV -> SOP £1.50?
I did look for SOP -> HBD, but no Flash Sale tickets were available. Looking forward to the trip, which is tomorrow.

Just wait until we post you an eTicket

At least I wouldn't incur the 9p per ticket printing costs

 

[sor]

That's because you searched for each ticket separately, doing your own manual split ticketing.

In contrast, Trainsplit would give you one PDF per passenger journey and it would print neatly on a single piece of paper (or potentially two for longer journeys; you can choose how many pages to print per piece of paper). I've done that when purchasing tickets for relatives. It's easy.

This costs the retailer a lot of money compared to e-tickets

I had the same thing with the Greater Anglia £5 sale, through the GA website and I didn't do anything fancy. One ticket into London and one back. Two PDFs.

If other websites do it better then great (can you buy such tickets through third parties?) but it'd be nice to be more standardised. I had to mess about to get them onto the same page for printing.

 

[yorkie]

I did things this way on the Northern web site, because it involved Flash Sale tickets. For future reference would the Trainsplit site have been able to do me the Southport to Hebden Bridge round trip for £7.10 each Senior Railcard holder consisting of 4 Advance singles each:
SOP -> MCV £1; MCV -> HBD £2.30; HBD -> MCV £2.30; MCV -> SOP £1.50?
I did look for SOP -> HBD, but no Flash Sale tickets were available. Looking forward to the trip, which is tomorrow.

Some special offers are only available through the specific website of the TOC in question; this is dubious and anti-competetive practice, but until there is a legal case...

I had the same thing with the Greater Anglia £5 sale, through the GA website and I didn't do anything fancy. One ticket into London and one back. Two PDFs.

If other websites do it better then great (can you buy such tickets through third parties?) but it'd be nice to be more standardised. I had to mess about to get them onto the same page for printing.

Trainsplit does one PDF per passenger for the journey (a return journey still generates one PDF) which I personally think is the best way to do it.

The PDF may consist of multiple pages, which is much better than separate PDFs per ticket/coupon, especially for journeys involving lots of splits.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

There is no requirement to use a computer or mobile phone to travel by train.

Not yet. But it's clear the way the TOCs are pushing online sales by way of strategies like only offering sale tickets as e-tickets and trying to close all their booking offices that it won't be long before it will be.

 

[Haywain]

One ticket into London and one back. Two PDFs.

One pdf, two barcodes - an entirely normal return ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not yet. But it's clear the way the TOCs are pushing online sales by way of strategies like only offering sale tickets as e-tickets and trying to close all their booking offices that it won't be long before it will be.

I can't see TVMs going away entirely, but increasingly almost everyone books online.

Is there a public statistic of what percentage of tickets are bought by what means?

 

[davews]

At 73 I guess I class as 'elderly'. The nearest I have got to e-ticket is ordering tickets online and collecting the paper version from the TVM. I normally far prefer my local ticket office, quick and easy and a real paper ticket to flash at the revenue officer if needed. I do have a smart phone but it gets very little use so in theory could go e-ticket.

If as some suggest you get many separate pdf's for a journey printing those out will involve lots of sheets of paper, a waste, as arranging your computer to print them on a single sheet may be beyond the technical ability of many.

This morning at our Tesco I had to wait several minutes while the woman in front of me hunted first for her Clubcard then the appropriate thing to pay on her smartphone. I imagine the same will happen with the trains if we go e-ticket only.

 

[JBuchananGB]

As an "elderly" but computer literate person I think my preferred solution, now that Merseyrail ticket offices can issue ToD tickets bought on line is to use that method. Have done it a few times. That's what I did the last time I bought using RailUK's Trainsplit interface. There is no conveniently located TVM. I still buy walk-up tickets at the time of travel at the ticket office. I even did that once with manually split tickets.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I can't see TVMs going away entirely, but increasingly almost everyone books online.

Is there a public statistic of what percentage of tickets are bought by what means?

It's similar to the banks isn't it - shut all your local branches, making all face to face contact with customers impossible, forcing people to do all their banking online, then say "almost all our customers prefer to bank online". Well of course, they do if you've closed down all their other options! I can see the rail industry going the same way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's similar to the banks isn't it - shut all your local branches, making all face to face contact with customers impossible, forcing people to do all their banking online, then say "almost all our customers prefer to bank online". Well of course, they do if you've closed down all their other options! I can see the rail industry going the same way.

The banks are closing because people indeed, mostly, prefer not to use them in person. Why would I? What exactly does having to spend an hour going to the bank when I could sit here and do it on my phone now bring to me? Banking is an ideal self-service product. For instance I switched my mortgage online in about 10 minutes last month, what would queueing up to ask a person to do it, taking an hour out of my day, brought to me?

I have self service banked now for 23 years. It's not new. Remember the pensioners of tomorrow are the tech-savvy Generation X of today.

 

[sor]

One pdf, two barcodes - an entirely normal return ticket.

I went and checked - two PDFs in the email confirmation, filenames are even Adult1 - OUT date and Adult1 - RTN date. So they know what's what, but can't combine it!

If it was one file it'd be better as it could at least duplex print (but you'd still be charged for two pages for those who pay for ink/toner in that way). Given it's a long strip they could put them both on the same page, which I did manually.

Some special offers are only available through the specific website of the TOC in question; this is dubious and anti-competetive practice, but until there is a legal case...


Trainsplit does one PDF per passenger for the journey (a return journey still generates one PDF) which I personally think is the best way to do it.

The PDF may consist of multiple pages, which is much better than separate PDFs per ticket/coupon, especially for journeys involving lots of splits.

Sounds like the same answer from me - one PDF is definitely much better though my preference would be to put a return journey (or in the glorious new world, two singles) on the same page

 

[JBuchananGB]

I switched to online banking when Smile launched in 1999. It was a bit clunky on my Packard Bell PC with a 14400 baud dial up internet connection. Eventually I upgraded to a 56K modem.
Prior to that I was with Midland. I remember dropping into the branch about every 2 weeks to use a self service machine which printed out a statement, so that I could do my bank reconciliations. Surely the elderly people of today are tech-savvy baby-boomers!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The banks are closing because people indeed, mostly, prefer not to use them in person. Why would I? What exactly does having to spend an hour going to the bank when I could sit here and do it on my phone now bring to me? Banking is an ideal self-service product. For instance I switched my mortgage online in about 10 minutes last month, what would queueing up to ask a person to do it, taking an hour out of my day, brought to me?

I have self service banked now for 23 years. It's not new. Remember the pensioners of tomorrow are the tech-savvy Generation X of today.

Don't assume that just because something works for you that it suits everyone else. Many people - particularly the elderly and those living alone - prefer the friendliness of face-to-face interaction to the cold indifference of a computer screen. You also have to consider that no online transaction is 100% secure - having been the victim of online fraud myself, I now prefer to do my banking in my local branch.

I don't want to take the thread off topic but the parallels with the rail industry are obvious, which is why I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP. E-tickets are fine, so long as passengers are also offered paper tickets as an alternative. If at some point in the future e-tickets become the only option, it will put an awful lot of people off train travel, and not necessarily just the elderly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't assume that just because something works for you that it suits everyone else. Many people - particularly the elderly and those living alone - prefer the friendliness of face-to-face interaction to the cold indifference of a computer screen.

Banking is a poor way of delivering social opportunities for elderly people, though. It would be better to set up things like volunteer-led social clubs, walking groups and the likes.

You also have to consider that no online transaction is 100% secure - having been the victim of online fraud myself, I now prefer to do my banking in my local branch.

And you could get your wallet nicked on the way to the bank. Nothing is 100% secure, anywhere, ever.

I don't want to take the thread off topic but the parallels with the rail industry are obvious, which is why I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP. E-tickets are fine, so long as passengers are also offered paper tickets as an alternative. If at some point in the future e-tickets become the only option, it will put an awful lot of people off train travel, and not necessarily just the elderly.

How isn't a printed-out e-ticket on a sheet of A4 basically the same thing?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Banking is a poor way of delivering social opportunities for elderly people, though. It would be better to set up things like volunteer-led social clubs, walking groups and the likes.



And you could get your wallet nicked on the way to the bank. Nothing is 100% secure, anywhere, ever.



How isn't a printed-out e-ticket on a sheet of A4 basically the same thing?

You're basically saying the same thing again in a slightly different way - essentially "online ticketing suits me fine so I want to ban all other forms of ticket sales that might suit others". Which is a pretty selfish attitude to have, isn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're basically saying the same thing again in a slightly different way - essentially "online ticketing suits me fine so I want to ban all other forms of ticket sales that might suit others". Which is a pretty selfish attitude to have, isn't it?

Are you happy to pay an extra fee for personal advice and service on ticket sales?

 

[Halwynd]

I use a number of Apps; banking, buying fuel from BP etc. None of them threaten me with a penalty charge (fare) - or an unwelcome letter - if something goes wrong with technology, or my battery runs down. And I'm not going to start walking around with a portable charger and cable just in case, nor incur the expense of printing my own tickets onto a piece of A4 paper.

I would prefer to keep booking offices open, but I accept that fewer people are using them. I'm happy to buy from a ticket machine instead for on-the day purchases (although I believe some machines don't always offer the full range of fares) and TOD has worked very well for me for many years. If TOD goes - and the aforementioned penalty fares for smartphone transgressions remain in place - then I think my days of using the railway will come to an end.

 

[Haywain]

buying fuel from BP etc. None of them threaten me with a penalty charge (fare) - or an unwelcome letter - if something goes wrong with technology, or my battery runs down.

So, how do you buy fuel from BP if something goes wrong with your technology?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, how do you buy fuel from BP if something goes wrong with your technology?

If you drive off from a garage without paying (even accidentally), then don't expect not to be prosecuted, or at least be treated the same way as you would on the railway. There are plenty of systems in place to do that.

If you don't have a means of payment they might accept you leaving your car there and going off on foot to seek an alternative, but that's not going to be easy for you.

I would prefer to keep booking offices open, but I accept that fewer people are using them. I'm happy to buy from a ticket machine instead for on-the day purchases (although I believe some machines don't always offer the full range of fares) and TOD has worked very well for me for many years. If TOD goes - and the aforementioned penalty fares for smartphone transgressions remain in place - then I think my days of using the railway will come to an end.

Just buy a printer. They're about £50.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're basically saying the same thing again in a slightly different way - essentially "online ticketing suits me fine so I want to ban all other forms of ticket sales that might suit others". Which is a pretty selfish attitude to have, isn't it?

I think most people don’t oppose other customers choosing to have their transactions done in a vastly more expensive way as long as they pay for it.

I’d be okay with the passenger footing the cost of ticket collection for 50p or £1 a transaction while I assume the responsibility for my own ticket.

If you drive off from a garage without paying (even accidentally), then don't expect not to be prosecuted, or at least be treated the same way as you would on the railway. There are plenty of systems in place to do that.

If you don't have a means of payment they might accept you leaving your car there and going off on foot to seek an alternative, but that's not going to be easy for you.

Most filling stations have a no means to pay form. I’ve had to use it before when I forgot my wallet. I returned later with cash.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Are you happy to pay an extra fee for personal advice and service on ticket sales?

Of course not - good customer service is the very least I expect off a company I'm dealing with rather than being expected to pay a premium for it. An extra fee would be discriminatory anyway; what about disabled people such as the partially sighted who are unable to book online?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course not - good customer service is the very least I expect off a company I'm dealing with rather than being expected to pay a premium for it.

Good service to me is a frictionless journey with no need to queue.

An extra fee would be discriminatory anyway; what about disabled people such as the partially sighted who are unable to book online?

Out comes the RUK minority again! Of course the fee could be waived for anyone unable (rather than simply unwilling) to use a TVM or similar. Or we could take the London approach of allowing completely free travel to those people if that's cheaper overall.

 

[Halwynd]

So, how do you buy fuel from BP if something goes wrong with your technology?

I get out of my car, walk into the shop and pay by card. Voila! - no threats or unpleasantness from BP.

If you drive off from a garage without paying (even accidentally), then don't expect not to be prosecuted, or at least be treated the same way as you would on the railway. There are plenty of systems in place to do that.

If you don't have a means of payment they might accept you leaving your car there and going off on foot to seek an alternative, but that's not going to be easy for you.



Just buy a printer. They're about £50.

See above - BP offer a simple alternative when and if technology fails - without the threat of a penalty charge.

I have a printer - it's a HP mono laser and cost about £100. The toner cartridges cost not far short of the same and I'm not going to use it to start printing PDF railway tickets that, from what I have seen, use a considerable amount of toner/ink. I pay enough for my fare, I expect the railway to cover the cost of a printed ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a printer - it's a HP mono laser and cost about £100. The toner cartridges cost not far short of the same and I'm not going to use it to start printing PDF railway tickets that, from what I have seen, use a considerable amount of toner/ink. I pay enough for my fare, I expect the railway to cover the cost of a printed ticket.

I just Googled, and it appears the approximate cost of printing a page on a monochrome laser printer is £0.007. Yes, seven tenths of a penny.

This is the biggest non-issue I've seen in the whole world of non-issues. You have a printer, print out your e-tickets. There's just not a problem here.