Easement 030024 Journeys from Gobowen

[0B00]

Easement 030024 states Journeys from Gobowen to Wrexham General and beyond may double back via Shrewsbury. This easement applies in both directions.

So if you hold a Gobowen to Wrexham SDS for £5.30, can you travel Gobowen to Shrewsbury then Shrewsbury to Wrexham ?

And if so, can one break the journey at Shrewsbury ?

 

[headshot119]

You'll find you run into problems at Shrewsbury gate line attempting to leave the station using this easement. I don't dispute the validity of what you propose, I'm just stating the facts as I've experienced them.

Then again ATW promised me some three years ago that this easement would be removed.

 

[Paul Kelly]

No it's not valid IMHO - the doubleback easement alone isn't enough to validate it. Since origin and destination have a routeing point in common (Wrexham itself), only the shortest route, routes up to 3 miles longer, or journeys to and from the common routeing point are valid (the latter obviously not applicable here since the common routeing point is the destination). Via Shrewsbury is much longer than this so there would need to be a local easement to make this longer journey valid, in addition to the doubleback easement to allow doubling back through Gobowen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just looking into it a bit more, Wrexham wasn't always a routeing point. Gobowen used to be associated with Shrewsbury, Chester and Liverpool. This doubleback easement would have made a lot more sense back then, as Gobowen - Shrewsbury - Wrexham would have been permitted by virtue of the through trains to and from common routeing point rule (with Shrewsbury being a common routeing point of both Gobowen and Wrexham), but the doubleback easement would still have been needed to cover the doubleback through Gobowen.

So I think this easement is redundant, or at least needs to be augmented by additional easements (e.g. a local easement or routeing point easement for Gobowen to Shrewsbury), since Wrexham became a routeing point.

 

[0B00]

Just 'tweeted' ATW on this. Reply back claims the ATW 'Ticketing Manager' says the easement is no longer valid. Also states 'it is no longer applied in the Routeing Guide'.

I have 'tweeted' back asking why it has not been removed from the ATOC list if that is the case.

 

[krus_aragon]

The easement mentioned is, as I recall, quite an old one and predates the introduction of recent routeing points (such as Wrexham, Llandudno Jn).

 

[bb21]

Is the fare permitted via Shrewsbury as per Condition 13a(iii)? Yes.

Are there break of journey restrictions on this fare? No.

Would I use it to enter/leave Shrewsbury station? Only if the gateline is unstaffed.

People's appetite for arguments differ widely so you may think differently for your answer to that last question.

 

[OwlMan]

Now it has been publicised in nthis forum I bet it will disappear very quickly

 

[Paul Kelly]

Now it has been publicised in nthis forum I bet it will disappear very quickly

Which begs the question, why was it there in the first place? Did it used to be that not many trains from Shrewsbury to Wrexham stopped at Gobowen (I checked the timetable and it seems most of them do now)? If the reason for it existing is still there then as I said above, since the addition of Wrexham as a routeing point this easement on its own isn't enough to allow travel via Shrewsbury - an additional local easement (to allow travel to Wrexham and stations between Wrexham and Shotton/Chester) plus a routeing point easement (to allow travel to Shotton/Chester routeing points and beyond in cases where Shrewsbury failed the fares check) are also needed.

 

[0B00]

I doubt it will disappear given that ATW seem to think that just by saying it is no loner valid is sufficient !

I too wonder what it's original purpose was.

 

[kieron]

If the reason for it existing is still there then as I said above, since the addition of Wrexham as a routeing point this easement on its own isn't enough to allow travel via Shrewsbury

There are five passenger trains a week each way which pass through Gobowen without calling there. I don't think there's any question of this easement still fulfilling whatever purpose it served back in Central Trains' days.

I think what you have to bear in mind here is that the significance of the "Category" column in the easement table is not explained in any published document. This means that you can take the "Description" on its own merits. I feel it would be difficult to maintain that an easement which allows something for journeys from Gobowen to Wrexham General and beyond does not allow it for a ticket from Gobowen to Wrexham General.

What I suspect the ATW member of twitter staff may have been trying to communicate was that this easement is not implemented in online journey planners. I've certainly found no evidence of it in nationalrail.co.uk.

 

[455driver]

Surely all this using the easement and breaking your journey is bending the point of the easement to almost breaking point.

Either use the easement for its intended purpose or don't use it, either way you look at it, its wrong to try it on.

The only outcome is that these easements will be removed greatly inconveniencing the people these easements are intended to help!

But then people who abuse them couldn't give a stuff about anyone else could they!

 

[kieron]

The only outcome is that these easements will be removed greatly inconveniencing the people these easements are intended to help!

As I mentioned, there are at most 5 trains a week each way for which this easement could be of any use by "the people these easements are intended to help". It wasn't that long ago that there were none at all. I shouldn't lose any sleep over those hypothetical people if I were you.

 

[455driver]

As I mentioned, there are at most 5 trains a week each way for which this easement could be of any use by "the people these easements are intended to help". It wasn't that long ago that there were none at all. I shouldn't lose any sleep over those hypothetical people if I were you.

It was a general comment, not specific to this example.

 

[bb21]

Surely all this using the easement and breaking your journey is bending the point of the easement to almost breaking point.

Pun intended?

 

[455driver]

Pun intended?

Actually no!

 

[kieron]

It was a general comment, not specific to this example.

If you wish to discuss an issue which is not relevant to the example under discussion here, you may like to consider using the "new thread" link.

As the easement from this thread has now been removed, the question of what you can do with it is now only relevant to people who already have tickets.

 

[philjo]

Now it has been publicised in nthis forum I bet it will disappear very quickly

Correct! - It has been removed today
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=99396&page=32

 

[455driver]

If you wish to discuss an issue which is not relevant to the example under discussion here, you may like to consider using the "new thread" link.

As the easement from this thread has now been removed, the question of what you can do with it is now only relevant to people who already have tickets.

When did you become a Moderator! :roll:

 

[infobleep]

When did you become a Moderator! :roll:

May be Kieron should have contacted a moderator to ask them to intervene if they thought it necessary.

Out of interest, if I discuss the lack of advance fares avaliable covering multiple rail companies in the south east of England, they might actually create some, given none seem to exist! The answer is likely to be no.

So given they don't want to help passengers in this way, is it any wonder passengers resort to other methods.

I'm not say all rail fares should be cheaper. However there needs to be more flexibility. Someone gets a discount on a monthly season ticket. Someone who travels once a week for 30 weeks a year gets nothing! That's just life. Just as figuring out how to use the routing guide guide to people's own advantage is just life.

 

[miami]

Just as figuring out how to use the routing guide guide to people's own advantage is just life.

Life and fun. It's always fun to hack a system, extracting the maximum value you can without breaking the law, be it using BOJ, looking for routing guide options, splitting tickets, etc.

 

[FenMan]

Life and fun. It's always fun to hack a system, extracting the maximum value you can without breaking the law, be it using BOJ, looking for routing guide options, splitting tickets, etc.

The last time I checked, the TOCs, within limits, have the power to set ticket prices. Unless they are completely daft they will know that there will always be anomalies due to the complexity of the network and the particular financial targets they are working to. Nowadays it is not hard for savvy travellers, with a little effort, to find alternative ticketing arrangements that deliver better value than a straight A to B price.

In the 80s I frequently bought A-B Saver Returns to travel up north from SE England. In those days I had no way of knowing if I was paying the best price for my planned journey. It is so much easier now.

 

[kieron]

When did you become a Moderator! :roll:

Moderator? No, just some friendly advice.