East Anglia fleet future cascade options

[DenmarkRail]

I here that East Anglia are to use sleeper coaches???

 

[Clansman]

I here that East Anglia are to use sleeper coaches???

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Does anybody hear a cheeky 442 running on a diesel engine?

 

[Frothy]

I here that East Anglia are to use sleeper coaches???

I think the article you are referring to was a spoof.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[sd0733]

The 360 fleet would be useful for the new west midlands franchise with the possibility of using the fleet for some extra routes paths permitting. If they can be re-configurered as 3 and 5 car units, so 10 3-car and 10-5 car units with 1 4-car left over which could be incorporated into the 350 fleet. They could then be used to enhance the service on the northern routes of the franchise. There are 8 diagrams on Birmingham Liverpool.which could all go to the 5-car units, with 1 used on the Trent Valley to get them back to Northampton for heavy maintenance They can be fitted with a refurbished interior of 2+2 seating, tables and plug sockets and a driving vehicle with proper 2+1 first class for maybe 2/3 of the coach.
The 3-car units could be used on the Rugeleys and a new Walsall-Preston service going Walsall-wolves-penkridge-stafford-stone-stoke-kidsgrove-alsager-crewe-winsford-hartford-acton bridge-warrington-wigan-preston. This would then allow the Trent Valleys and Liverpools to skip some stations and improve journey times. The displaced 350s can then be put to make all Trent Valleys 8-car and skip the Stoke loop.
The 323s not going onto Rugeley would allow.most Cross City to be 6-car if all 43 323s do emd up there and if the 350/4s mean too many 350s at LM maybe a few /1s could be sent down to SWT to join their 450 cousins and allow some Portsmouths to.have 12 coaches and 2+2 seats.
Probably loads of reasons why wouldnt work but in theory i think.it would.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think you'll find Paisley Canal is not route cleared for 321s beyond Corkerwell TMD due to the electrification method used. Instead how about 321s operating between Edinburgh and North Berwick / Dunbar releasing the 380s for services in Ayrshire?

Paisley Canal is cleared for all ScotRail EMU stock, if that's any help for stock cascades plans.

 

[Harbornite]

The 360 fleet would be useful for the new west midlands franchise with the possibility of using the fleet for some extra routes paths permitting. If they can be re-configurered as 3 and 5 car units, so 10 3-car and 10-5 car units with 1 4-car left over which could be incorporated into the 350 fleet. They could then be used to enhance the service on the northern routes of the franchise. There are 8 diagrams on Birmingham Liverpool.which could all go to the 5-car units, with 1 used on the Trent Valley to get them back to Northampton for heavy maintenance They can be fitted with a refurbished interior of 2+2 seating, tables and plug sockets and a driving vehicle with proper 2+1 first class for maybe 2/3 of the coach.
The 3-car units could be used on the Rugeleys and a new Walsall-Preston service going Walsall-wolves-penkridge-stafford-stone-stoke-kidsgrove-alsager-crewe-winsford-hartford-acton bridge-warrington-wigan-preston. This would then allow the Trent Valleys and Liverpools to skip some stations and improve journey times. The displaced 350s can then be put to make all Trent Valleys 8-car and skip the Stoke loop.
The 323s not going onto Rugeley would allow.most Cross City to be 6-car if all 43 323s do emd up there and if the 350/4s mean too many 350s at LM maybe a few /1s could be sent down to SWT to join their 450 cousins and allow some Portsmouths to.have 12 coaches and 2+2 seats.
Probably loads of reasons why wouldnt work but in theory i think.it would.

The 350/1s should stay at London Midland, and anyway they'd have to be fitted with third rail gear if they were moved to swt.

 

[sd0733]

The 350/1s should stay at London Midland, and anyway they'd have to be fitted with third rail gear if they were moved to swt.

They've already got 3rd rail equipment on the 1s.

 

[SC318250]

I think you'll find Paisley Canal is not route cleared for 321s beyond Corkerwell TMD due to the electrification method used. Instead how about 321s operating between Edinburgh and North Berwick / Dunbar releasing the 380s for services in Ayrshire?.

North Berwick and Dunbar will go over to Class 385

I think Paisley Canal goes to Class 380 once Class 314 are withdrawn

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The 323s not going onto Rugeley would allow.most Cross City to be 6-car if all 43 323s do emd up there and if the 350/4s mean too many 350s at LM maybe a few /1s could be sent down to SWT to join their 450 cousins and allow some Portsmouths to.have 12 coaches and 2+2 seats.
Probably loads of reasons why wouldnt work but in theory i think.it would.

2+2 seating on 350/1s or 450s is in effect not allowed on the Waterloo-Portsmouth route because of the number of seats per unit that SWTs are required to provide

 

[swt_passenger]

They've already got 3rd rail equipment on the 1s.

Indeed, as I posted here (with photos) in a previous attempt to correct this long running railway myth that the shoegear was removed:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2554807&postcount=5

 

[NotATrainspott]

I think you'll find Paisley Canal is not route cleared for 321s beyond Corkerwell TMD due to the electrification method used. Instead how about 321s operating between Edinburgh and North Berwick / Dunbar releasing the 380s for services in Ayrshire?

No. The 321s are (literally) nothing more than a subclass of the 320 fleet now and will be used interchangeably with the 320s and 318s. The 385s are designed for 100mph stopping services on intensively-used lines and are thus ideal for the ECML suburban services. That they will be used on Cathcart Circle services is simply for efficiency's sake when ordering a new fleet, as having one larger fleet of trains which will do the job just fine is better than having two smaller, slightly more specialised fleets. When other routes suitable for 385s get their wires the Cathcart Circle units will move across, being replaced by another single large order of suburban EMUs to replace the Mk3-derived units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anybody hear a cheeky 442 running on a diesel engine?

Adrian Shooter, possibly...

 

[Clansman]

No. The 321s are (literally) nothing more than a subclass of the 320 fleet now and will be used interchangeably with the 320s and 318s. The 385s are designed for 100mph stopping services on intensively-used lines and are thus ideal for the ECML suburban services. That they will be used on Cathcart Circle services is simply for efficiency's sake when ordering a new fleet, as having one larger fleet of trains which will do the job just fine is better than having two smaller, slightly more specialised fleets. When other routes suitable for 385s get their wires the Cathcart Circle units will move across, being replaced by another single large order of suburban EMUs to replace the Mk3-derived units.

This. Probably another 10 years until Scotrail will see the biggest stock overhaul since privatisation(?)

 

[Silverlink]

To scrap the 321's would be the most stupidest thing ever. So where would the Renatus models go?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If there ended up being no takers for the 321s anywhere, could the PMSOs be swapped for a trailer in class 455s to make them dual voltage or swapped with the MSO of a class 455 is a TOC wanted a AC unit with corridor connections as a cheaper alternative to a new build?

 

[Domh245]

No. Not only would that be extremely complex and expensive, but by the time you've done that, you've not gained any capacity and you've spent almost as much to get a train with half the life span of a new build.

 

[47802]

To scrap the 321's would be the most stupidest thing ever. So where would the Renatus models go?

Why 321's are approaching bin or keep in terms of age, and if its a better business case to bin so be it, probably the Renatus ones wont be scrapped.

 

[D365]

Great. Please don't tell me that the 321s are going to become the next "forum fad".

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will units be swapped around so that eventually all the 319s are with a single TOC and all the 321s end up with a single TOC?

 

[northwichcat]

Will units be swapped around so that eventually all the 319s are with a single TOC and all the 321s end up with a single TOC?

Probably the only TOC who have taken on the entire 321 fleet without replacing new with old was Anglia and Abellio didn't take up that option. There's too many 319s to go to a single operator unless you start replacing trains like Electrostars with 319s.

 

[klewer]

Great. Please don't tell me that the 321s are going to become the next "forum fad".

Can already imagine posts suggesting they're hauled by 67's on TPE/MML/anywhere. *shudders*

Personally, the drivers who I've spoken to regard the GEML fleet as "shagged" and having provided 30 years' service by the time they're replaced it's probably time for them to be scrapped, along with the 317's.

 

[Dave1987]

Can already imagine posts suggesting they're hauled by 67's on TPE/MML/anywhere. *shudders*

Personally, the drivers who I've spoken to regard the GEML fleet as "shagged" and having provided 30 years' service by the time they're replaced it's probably time for them to be scrapped, along with the 317's.

They aren't "shagged" so much as thrashed. They are all doing a lot of mileage day in day out. If they were to be given some proper TLC I'm sure they could run for another decade. But the modern way of running a fleet of trains is similar to the airline way of thinking, as in 'if it isn't running in service it isn't making money'. I'm sure if you used only half the fleet of 90 odd 321's for service and had the rest as spares or maintenance and properly fixed all the faults they would have a very good reliability record. But the way the fleets are used intensively now you really need a brand new fleet to get the reliability people want. Problem there is new fleets are incredibly expensive so they are used even more intensively so the company gets the best value for the leasing costs.

 

[D365]

By buying an all-new fleet it means you don't have to take your existing trains out of service, and by design the Aventra/Stadler fleets (at new) should have a far superior reliability. Not to mention that TfL will have ironed out the teething troubles of the former once they put their Class 345/710 fleets into service.

 

[southern442]

Great. Please don't tell me that the 321s are going to become the next "forum fad".

It would seems that way, I actually had to pinch myself because I saw a genuine serious civilised conversation about 442 use a few pages back!

In seriousness, I don't think 321 lovers should be getting that desperate yet, as there are still plenty of places that will need more electric trains in the next few years.

 

[tbtc]

Why 321's are approaching bin or keep in terms of age, and if its a better business case to bin so be it, probably the Renatus ones wont be scrapped.

Would that be a dusty bin, by any chance?

Great. Please don't tell me that the 321s are going to become the next "forum fad".

I think we'll be safe (though I'm surprised at the Anglia news). At least 321s are relatively "go anywhere" EMUs, and there'll always be a need for 100mph EMUs with "commuter" doors.

Renatus shows that they can be upgraded relatively easily (compared to stock that has high floors/ narrow doors/ structural faults like a sagging roof or insufficient space for a disabled toilet).

As we've seen in Glasgow, 321s be converted to three carriages (a flexibility that 319s lack).

442s were built with components that were already old, have narrow doors and are restricted to the Southern Region (without spending huge sums on them).

Stock like the 60s and the 508s have been sat idle for so long that they'd cost a fortune to get back to reasonable service.

Plus, there'll be future electrification schemes that they could be touted for.

(or, you know, getting 60s to haul 321s from Plymouth to a village in Wigtonshire via the HOWL and up the S&C... getting horses to pull 321s through a tunnel under Leeds? )

 

[Dave1987]

By buying an all-new fleet it means you don't have to take your existing trains out of service, and by design the Aventra/Stadler fleets (at new) should have a far superior reliability. Not to mention that TfL will have ironed out the teething troubles of the former once they put their Class 345/710 fleets into service.

Ow indeed, just saying that with some good old TLC I believe the 321's could live on. It's just whether or not a suitable home is found for them and if the TOC could afford to give that TLC and not need them in service constantly. Having driven them for a fair few years now I can say I would not want to see them scrapped before time. That's not to say I'm not looking forward to the new fleet though!

 

[urpert]

Will units be swapped around so that eventually all the 319s are with a single TOC and all the 321s end up with a single TOC?

With a single scrapyard, perhaps.

 

[D365]

With a single scrapyard, perhaps.

If that means they depart for Rotherham, I say replace the tram extension with a line of BR EMUs.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Between 319s and 321s which which is generally in better shape mechanically, electrically and structurally?

 

[Silverlink]

Between 319s and 321s which which is generally in better shape mechanically, electrically and structurally?

321 as they're newer