East Coast apologises for "heavy-handed" treatment of passenger

[Squaddie]

From today's Guardian:

Railing against heavy handed East Coast ticket policy

My wife was travelling on an East Coast train from Grantham to Edinburgh on 13 July, and while still a bit flustered after making a quick change of train in Newark was asked to show her ticket. She was unable to immediately find the ticket and was asked by the collector to pay £68 (with senior rail card) for a replacement. She found the original ticket shortly after, showed it to the next (different) collector to appear and asked for a refund. She was told that a refund could be obtained in the ticket office in Edinburgh. On arrival she went straight to the office and was given a form to send to the Customer Relations Department. A member of staff stapled the original ticket to the form to ensure that it would not be lost, details were completed and the form was sent off.

Two weeks later we received a response which, in summary, said they sympathise with how distressing and inconvenient it must have been but that they require all customers to possess a valid ticket and have it ready to be checked by their onboard guards. To ignore the fact that a ticket had been purchased and was available for inspection on the train shows a ridiculous lack of flexibility.

Full story here.

What does the rulebook have to say about such situations? How long does a passenger have to produce a valid ticket? It seems extremely harsh for East Coast to refuse a refund when the ticket was found "shortly after" the passenger was made to buy another ticket. Was East Coast's change of heart an admission that they had not followed their own procedures, or were they simply embarrassed into a climbdown by the media attention?

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the conductor was heavy handed and over zealous if they did not allow the passenger time to look for the ticket. I have witnessed a similar situation on trains many times down the years and I have never seen a guard not allow the passenger to look through their belongings. They usually say that they will come bakc in a few minutes and continue on down the carriage.

If the incident did happen as described, and I have no reason at this time to doubt it, then no doubt the conductor will have been asked for an explanation and corrective action taken as necessary.

The other parts of the tale, with the refund being unable to be done on the spot, sounds correct to me.

Just a minor point though, it was not a Penalty Fare, the lady had to buy a new ticket.

 

[Clip]

The other parts of the tale, with the refund being unable to be done on the spot, sounds correct to me.

Oddly enough a few year back I was in the same situation getting the first train from Leeds worse for wear after coming from 'Boro first thing in the morning..

The Guard refunded me on the spot when I found me ticket..

 

[Ferret]

Oddly enough a few year back I was in the same situation getting the first train from Leeds worse for wear after coming from 'Boro first thing in the morning..

The Guard refunded me on the spot when I found me ticket..

That's happened to me several times! No problem to do an instant refund if it's me that issued the ticket of course! I tend to give people a good bit of time if they can't find their ticket straight away - like somebody said above - finish the carriage or even the rest of the train and go back to them! Seems a bit OTT to just charge them there and then!

 

[Clip]

That's happened to me several times! No problem to do an instant refund if it's me that issued the ticket of course! I tend to give people a good bit of time if they can't find their ticket straight away - like somebody said above - finish the carriage or even the rest of the train and go back to them! Seems a bit OTT to just charge them there and then!

Aye. I actually bought a new one from him at the time - 80 odd quid but he was more than happy to refund once i found it in me back pocket - the last place to check.

Railways will be in the paper for anything at the moment mind - The Bearded one is mounting some campaign

 

[Brucey]

"Heavy handed"?!?! How was this heavy handed? There must have been a reasonable amount of time between looking for the ticket and handing the money over, in which she could have located the ticket.

Heavy handed would be SOS fare of £112 or prosecution. She was even offered a railcard discount which she didn't have to be offered.

 

[island]

East Coast doesn't do penalty fares, for a start, nor does it issue fines. A bit sensationalist.

 

[GadgetMan]

There's nothing in the article suggesting the first guard was over zealous. The article makes it clear the passenger did not find the original ticket until a change of train crew had taken place. For all we know the guard may have allowed her ample time to look for the ticket before selling her the new one.

It is also correct that an immediate refund could not be issued by the second member of staff.

I don't see a problem with the way train crew handled the situation on this occasion. The issue of refunding (or not) is down to the customer service department of Eastcoast not the train crew.

 

[YorkshireRider]

So are we to assume EC didnt give a refund at the first time of asking, if so thats very wrong but the article doesnt make that very clear at all. The guards will have changed over at Newcastle so thats a fair amount of time to find the ticket. As Ferret says it would need to be the same guard to issue the refund on-board, it wasnt so he/she couldn't.
The printed appology in the article relates to why the lady was charged, but we dont see the next paragragh/sentence which may well say that a full refund will be issued, in which case what is the point of the article? If a refund was refused then fair enough, the newspaper should have got involved, but you would think that would have been made clear in the article.

 

[eastdyke]

.....
It is also correct that an immediate refund could not be issued by the second member of staff.
.....

Quite true but there was no refund at all until the Newspaper had been involved.

The question really is about a refund for a ticket that was not available for 'immediate inspection'.

The customer seems to have been told 'that a refund could be obtained at the ticket office', and then 'you need to fill in this form and send it off'.

After reading this I think that I would (in the same situation) ask the second ticket inspector for a note to the effect that the ticket had been 'seen on the train'.

But should/would an inspector give such a note?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So are we to assume EC didnt give a refund at the first time of asking, if so thats very wrong but the article doesnt make that very clear at all. The guards will have changed over at Newcastle so thats a fair amount of time to find the ticket. As Ferret says it would need to be the same guard to issue the refund on-board, it wasnt so he/she couldn't.
The printed appology in the article relates to why the lady was charged, but we dont see the next paragragh/sentence which may well say that a full refund will be issued, in which case what is the point of the article? If a refund was refused then fair enough, the newspaper should have got involved, but you would think that would have been made clear in the article.

From the Newspaper comment:

'We asked East Coast for an explanation and it has now decided it was rather heavy-handed: "We look at each case on an individual basis and can confirm that she will receive a refund.'

The intonation is that a refund was only given after the Newspaper became involved.

 

[Tibbs]

"Heavy handed"?!?! How was this heavy handed? There must have been a reasonable amount of time between looking for the ticket and handing the money over, in which she could have located the ticket.

Based on the article (which is our only account for this incident) where is your evidence that she was given plenty of time?

 

[YorkshireRider]

Quite true but there was no refund at all until the Newspaper had been involved.

Maybe this was the case, but i cant see anything in the wording which confirms this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the Newspaper comment:

"We look at each case on an individual basis and can confirm that she will receive a refund.'

The intonation is that a refund was only given after the Newspaper became involved.

There is nothing there to suggest it wasnt offered first time round to me. The heavy handed comment was the papers own words, the only quote from EC is the one above

 

[eastdyke]

Maybe this was the case, but i cant see anything in the wording which confirms this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There is nothing there to suggest it wasnt offered first time round to me. The heavy handed comment was the papers own words, the only quote from EC is the one above

Surely if the refund had been offered first time around then the quote from EC would have been 'the Customer has already been offered/received a refund'?

 

[Squaddie]

There is nothing there to suggest it wasnt offered first time round to me. The heavy handed comment was the papers own words, the only quote from EC is the one above

Please read the story again. East Coast initially refused to refund the cost of the replacement ticket, doing so only after the Guardian got involved.

 

[dmacw]

That's happened to me several times! No problem to do an instant refund if it's me that issued the ticket of course! I tend to give people a good bit of time if they can't find their ticket straight away - like somebody said above - finish the carriage or even the rest of the train and go back to them! Seems a bit OTT to just charge them there and then!

Likewise, I will stand there waiting (until I'm board) then say I'll come back later on (obviously checking there not getting off at the next stop)

And if someone does buy a new ticket, then of course I'll refund it should they find the original.

 

[The North Briton]

Initial decision seems fine. Really, she should have been refunded at Edinburgh (if possible), and certainly when they had sent the form off to customer services.

I agree. East Coast's customer service department is outsourced, so I suspect they did not understand what had happened on the train.

 

[tannedfrog]

I agree. East Coast's customer service department is outsourced, so I suspect they did not understand what had happened on the train.

You'd rather hope that a customer service dept had a good understanding of ticketing matters

 

[The North Briton]

You'd rather hope that a customer service dept had a good understanding of ticketing matters

Maybe. But what they wouldn't have is the ability to contact the guard directly.

 

[Greenback]

Oddly enough a few year back I was in the same situation getting the first train from Leeds worse for wear after coming from 'Boro first thing in the morning..

The Guard refunded me on the spot when I found me ticket..

That's happened to me several times! No problem to do an instant refund if it's me that issued the ticket of course! I tend to give people a good bit of time if they can't find their ticket straight away - like somebody said above - finish the carriage or even the rest of the train and go back to them! Seems a bit OTT to just charge them there and then!

Yes, the same member of staff could have given a refund, but it was a different one.

"Heavy handed"?!?! How was this heavy handed? There must have been a reasonable amount of time between looking for the ticket and handing the money over, in which she could have located the ticket.

Heavy handed would be SOS fare of £112 or prosecution. She was even offered a railcard discount which she didn't have to be offered.

It is heavy handed and over zealous if the conductor didn't offer time for someone to look through their belongings.

There's nothing in the article suggesting the first guard was over zealous. The article makes it clear the passenger did not find the original ticket until a change of train crew had taken place. For all we know the guard may have allowed her ample time to look for the ticket before selling her the new one.

This is true. But there is nothing to suggest that they did allow time either. The letter implies that it was 'immediate', and that the other member of staff appeared ' a short time' later. The first guard may have been keen to sort it out before they got off, rather than leave a colleague to deal with it.

I did try and qualify my post in terms of the article not providing a lot of information, but I obviosuly didn't get my message across well!

It is also correct that an immediate refund could not be issued by the second member of staff.

I don't see a problem with the way train crew handled the situation on this occasion. The issue of refunding (or not) is down to the customer service department of Eastcoast not the train crew.

I agree in part. We just don't know for sure whether the conductor stood over this person and allowed only a few seconds for her to find the ticket, or whether they did go off and allow a bit longer, without the pressure of being watched as well. That is the crux of the matter really. If someone has genuinely misplaced a ticket, they will be flustered enough without a member of the crew standing over them waiting to extract even more money.

 

[158801]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, a full ticket check will now take place. Could everyone please have you tickets ready for inspection...."

Ten minutes later you get to a person sat there looking out of the window.

"Could I see your ticket please ?"

They check their bags, their pockets, their coat, their....

"Can you give me a bit of time please? I don't seem to be able to find it."

"How much time would you like sir? I asked ten minutes ago that you should have your ticket ready"

 

[Tibbs]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, a full ticket check will now take place. Could everyone please have you tickets ready for inspection...."

Ten minutes later you get to a person sat there looking out of the window.

"Could I see your ticket please ?"

They check their bags, their pockets, their coat, their....

"Can you give me a bit of time please? I don't seem to be able to find it."

"How much time would you like sir? I asked ten minutes ago that you should have your ticket ready"

You're making the assumption they heard you. On some trains I struggle to hear the person sat opposite, let alone the guard at the opposite end of the carriage.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I've never had a problem with this on FGW at least, the couple of times it has taken me to find the ticket in my ticket holder (sometimes it gets jumbled up by accident) they usually go through the rest of the carriage and return to me later.

 

[Greenback]

I've never had a problem with this on FGW at least, the couple of times it has taken me to find the ticket in my ticket holder (sometimes it gets jumbled up by accident) they usually go through the rest of the carriage and return to me later.

Indeed, this is my experience of ATW and FGW, and I have seen it happen quite a lot.

Despite announcements, I have also been taken by surprise on a lot of trains when I've been engrossed in a book, listening to music or simply having a doze. I have never encountered any member of staff who has been impatient in these circumstances.

The letter in the Guardian from the husband does give the distinct impression that his wife was not given much, if any, time to locate her ticket, and also that the crew change took place shortly after the incident. We don't know what actually happened, but if it was anything like as described the conductor was far too keen in my opinion.

If, however, the guard allowed a few minutes for the woman to find her ticket, and she only did manage to find it say half an hour later, then the train crew are correct and EC have absolutely nothing to apologise for.

On the subject of the refund, there should have been no problem if the lady had two tickets for the same journey, though it would have had to go through the system to be processed.

 

[WelshBluebird]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, a full ticket check will now take place. Could everyone please have you tickets ready for inspection...."

Ten minutes later you get to a person sat there looking out of the window.

"Could I see your ticket please ?"

They check their bags, their pockets, their coat, their....

"Can you give me a bit of time please? I don't seem to be able to find it."

"How much time would you like sir? I asked ten minutes ago that you should have your ticket ready"

1 - In my experience at least, announcements of ticket checks are very rare indeed.

2 - Even if there is one, you are assuming the person actually heard the announcement (deafness, headphones, asleep, or just generally concentrating on something else so they just did not process the announcement).

3 - With all the announcements that we have on trains now, I don't think you can blame people for zoning out sometimes.