East Coast Eureka clockface timetable May 2011

[tbtc]

Out of interest, why does everyone have their "fast" London - Edinburgh service stopping at York?

Its an important station, and a busy interchange, sure, but it's not a massive city, and I think Peterborough/Doncaster/Darlington are just as busy/important.

Okay, I'm against the concept of one "fast" service an hour, and would rather have evenly pathed departures and a "turn up and go" frequency". But could one of the people who wants a "sub-four-hour" London - Edinburgh service explain why York is so important? The only places you'd change at York (travelling to/from London) would be Scarborough/ Harrogate - neither massive places (Teesside is catered for at Darlington). York already has good connections to Newcastle etc.

 

[Invincibles]

In my case:

• Fairly easy to loop a train there for the fast to pass
• Halfway to London
• Connections southbound for Leeds, less logical to change anywhere else
• Always seems to be pretty slow through there, would a fast train really be much faster?
• Good interchange with TPE for Middlesbrough and Scarborough
• Doncaster has fast(ish) Leeds trains calling there, and the Hull ones

Admittedly Doncaster would offer most of the same features as York, it was southbound connections which swung it for me. Connections into Lincoln and Norfolk/Nottingham would be possible from my "Slow" and with a change at York as well.

Without knowing the numbering at York I think cross platforms are possible if the Fast uses platform 4 (the island through under the roof) and the slow uses platform 8 (the through on the edge of the roof). Connections to Leeds then also same platform on the south facing bays and Harrogate on the north bay. If the timings are right the northbounds can use the same platform combination. Plenty of flexibility, but cross platform changes are definitely good.

 

[philjo]

In my case:

Without knowing the numbering at York I think cross platforms are possible if the Fast uses platform 4 (the island through under the roof) and the slow uses platform 8 (the through on the edge of the roof). Connections to Leeds then also same platform on the south facing bays and Harrogate on the north bay. If the timings are right the northbounds can use the same platform combination. Plenty of flexibility, but cross platform changes are definitely good.

Platform 4 is only accessible to/from the scarborough Line & then southwards through platform 3.
I think Platform 8 is the north facing Harrogate Bay?

I think you are meaning platforms 5 & 9 ?


One consideration is that York serves as the interchange for the whole of Yorkshire & beyond, especially if the train isn't calling at Doncaster.
Besides harrogate & Scarborough there are connections to Hull via Selby, Middlesborough, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, Manchester & Manchester airport etc
The curves on the line mean the train has to slow down anyway.

 

[tbtc]

In my case:

• Fairly easy to loop a train there for the fast to pass
• Halfway to London
• Connections southbound for Leeds, less logical to change anywhere else
• Always seems to be pretty slow through there, would a fast train really be much faster?
• Good interchange with TPE for Middlesbrough and Scarborough
• Doncaster has fast(ish) Leeds trains calling there, and the Hull ones

Admittedly Doncaster would offer most of the same features as York, it was southbound connections which swung it for me. Connections into Lincoln and Norfolk/Nottingham would be possible from my "Slow" and with a change at York as well.

Without knowing the numbering at York I think cross platforms are possible if the Fast uses platform 4 (the island through under the roof) and the slow uses platform 8 (the through on the edge of the roof). Connections to Leeds then also same platform on the south facing bays and Harrogate on the north bay. If the timings are right the northbounds can use the same platform combination. Plenty of flexibility, but cross platform changes are definitely good.

That's fair enough, cheers.

Avoiding York would mean going via the curve to the west of the station, which should be a good bit faster

If you want to serve Middlesbrough then Darlington has a half hourly service to the Boro, whilst York only has an hourly one.

There are connections at York to do Edinburgh/Newcastle - Leeds, but there are direct trains doing this already. If serving Leeds is so important then maybe some HSTs should divert via Leeds between Doncaster and York?

I was wondering whether people were saying "York should be the only stop between London and Newcastle" partly because of its railway heriatage - nice station/ NRM etc, rather than passenger numbers.

 

[Invincibles]

Platform 4 is only accessible to/from the scarborough Line & then southwards through platform 3.
I think Platform 8 is the north facing Harrogate Bay?

I think you are meaning platforms 5 & 9 ?

Yes, sorry forgot 3 and 4 are the same face

That's fair enough, cheers.

Avoiding York would mean going via the curve to the west of the station, which should be a good bit faster

If you want to serve Middlesbrough then Darlington has a half hourly service to the Boro, whilst York only has an hourly one.

There are connections at York to do Edinburgh/Newcastle - Leeds, but there are direct trains doing this already. If serving Leeds is so important then maybe some HSTs should divert via Leeds between Doncaster and York?

I was wondering whether people were saying "York should be the only stop between London and Newcastle" partly because of its railway heriatage - nice station/ NRM etc, rather than passenger numbers.

Darlington is just off the main line and does not have the option to have easy cross platform interchange on many trains. If they build more platforms as is (planned?) then of course it becomes a viable alternative. It might even attract some form of subsidy for regeneration of the tees corridor to do that... possibly something a national operator would consider?

With electric possibilities between York and Leeds then the slow could run York -> Leeds -> Wakefield -> Doncaster and then the whole Leeds timetable be recast to make it every 20 minutes to London (Like Manchester) with all having the same journey time. That is tempting, but I think there are not enough HSTs?

 

[Aictos]

Well for Peterborough, you can change for direct services to the Midlands and East Anglia with destinations such as Leicester, Stamford, Ely, March, Spalding, Huntingdon, St Neots, Birmingham etc...which is why it's just as important as York or Newcastle come to think of it.

 

[tbtc]

One consideration is that York serves as the interchange for the whole of Yorkshire & beyond, especially if the train isn't calling at Doncaster.

Besides harrogate & Scarborough there are connections to Hull via Selby, Middlesborough, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, Manchester & Manchester airport etc

Doncaster already has connections to Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, Manchester & Manchester Airport (only a couple of Bradford trains, admittedly). Nobody is going to use a London - York train to double back to these places though.

Edinburgh/Newcastle already have direct services to Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester & Manchester Airport

 

[Deerfold]

I love how all of this discussion is based on nothing more than the only draft timetable which is no longer available or accurate.

Talk about completely missing the point.

Not sure how I missed the point - I pointed you towards where the draft timetable is still available. I've not been making comments about it as I'd rather just know what is happening. All this speculation is interesting but a bit late in the day for the May changes.

 

[tbtc]

Darlington is just off the main line and does not have the option to have easy cross platform interchange on many trains

Darlington is essentially one big platform, with the half hourly service to Middlesbrough/Saltburn generally going from the bays at the southern end - there are no stairs/ ramps/ obstacles

 

[Invincibles]

Darlington is essentially one big platform, with the half hourly service to Middlesbrough/Saltburn generally going from the bays at the southern end - there are no stairs/ ramps/ obstacles

True, I can see the Darlington lobby doing well on this one.

I have made another big error. I was thinking that you have to cross the DF to get to the platforms but of course that does not matter if all trains are scheduled to call at Darlington. The thinking with York was that you could almost think of the through lines as 3/4 and 10/11 with the platforms used in my plan as being central to them and not requiring any crossing. I should really think more carefully

I still think York is better though, especially given the terminators that are planned for it making stoppers to london almost half hourly.

Peterborough is not used for the fastest train because it is too close to London, easy to pass at speed and connections into East Anglia, while needing two changes at York and Peterborough would not be too punishing. (Liverpool Street to Kings Cross is also an easy enough transfer, with FCC to Kings Cross offering more options)

Many places have valid claims, I just think that making the connections cross platform and well scheduled (Like the old MML turbostars and fasts from Leicester - a perfect station for such operations) that actually many faster options are created and connections do not inconvenience people too much

 

[dfishw]

sorry i did make some mistakes:
1. Forgot that stockton and darlington were on seperate lines
2. Doncastor: Forgot about this station. My original idea was to have it only on the leeds-london slow service but i suppose it depends on how many (or few) trains there are between doncastor and leeds...if there are too few, i guess the fast one would have to call there too to give donny and leeds regular services between them.
3. Sywndermere: OK good point. At first i though of the lincoln service just calling at these stops once per day in each direction maybe that would be better?

 

[blacknight]

.Newark terminator is a stupid idea, it should continue to York (and Lincoln alternately!) - Newark is a shack in the railway sense, and barely has any onward connections. Or at least it could go to Doncaster!

Would make more sense to run terminator through to Retford with hourly connecting service to Lincoln & Sheffield

 

[cle]

Retford's pacer is a pitiful service of little use (you couldn't market Lincoln journeys with the connecting bit on a Pacer after getting off East Coast?!

Changing there is a bit of a pain too, as the E/W platforms are a bit of a hike down along the London platform. And Retford is even less of a destination itself than Newark.

I think if on the mainline, Doncaster at the very least, but really York would be best. You could then cut stops from the smaller stations and enable places like Northallerton and Durham to have faster London journeys. A Newcastle semi could call Peterborough, Doncaster, York and then onwards...with connections from the slow York/Donny service at York/Donny.

 

[brompton rail]

Would make more sense to run terminator through to Retford with hourly connecting service to Lincoln & Sheffield

To run north of Newark requires an extra train set. The original Eureks draft and the EC statement about Newark terminators show that there is about 20 minutes turn round at Newark. To continue to Retford, Doncaster and York adds getting on for an hour to journey times. Termination at Doncaster is not possible as there is nowhere for an Intercity size train to sit around for any length of time, nor convenient sidings.

4 through platforms, only 2 and a half giving access to Sheffield, 2 north facing bays allowing access to York or Leeds line (trains to Hull would have to cross all fast tracks), 1 south facing bay plus another only used for storing units overnight. All these to accommodate twice hourly Leeds - London in each direction, nearly hourly London to/ from Hull or Bradford Int, two hourly London - York slow, hourly XC Newcastle / Sheffield and south (may become two hourly), London / Newcastle /Edinburgh, as well as hourly (in each direction) through service ... Cleethorpe / Manchester Airport; Sheffield / Adwick; Sheffield / Scunthorpe; Sheffield / Hull and Yorkshire Coast, plus Doncaster / Hull stopper, Doncaster /Leeds stopper and several times a day
Lincoln to Doncaster EMT service.

 

[tbtc]

Retford's pacer is a pitiful service of little use (you couldn't market Lincoln journeys with the connecting bit on a Pacer after getting off East Coast?!

Changing there is a bit of a pain too, as the E/W platforms are a bit of a hike down along the London platform. And Retford is even less of a destination itself than Newark.

I think if on the mainline, Doncaster at the very least, but really York would be best. You could then cut stops from the smaller stations and enable places like Northallerton and Durham to have faster London journeys. A Newcastle semi could call Peterborough, Doncaster, York and then onwards...with connections from the slow York/Donny service at York/Donny.

In an ideal world you'd replace the Newark service by beefing up the Hull service to hourly, and use that service to stop at the "less important" places like Stevenage/Retford. But that supposes that a city like Hull has an electrified line and that the ECML could be easily organised with one TOC (rather than a fragmented muddle)

 

[David Dunning]

Out of interest, why does everyone have their "fast" London - Edinburgh service stopping at York?

Its an important station, and a busy interchange, sure, but it's not a massive city, and I think Peterborough/Doncaster/Darlington are just as busy/important.

Okay, I'm against the concept of one "fast" service an hour, and would rather have evenly pathed departures and a "turn up and go" frequency". But could one of the people who wants a "sub-four-hour" London - Edinburgh service explain why York is so important? The only places you'd change at York (travelling to/from London) would be Scarborough/ Harrogate - neither massive places (Teesside is catered for at Darlington). York already has good connections to Newcastle etc.

It's not a massive city but it's a big county and York attracts a lot of long distance park and ride custom. That's been changing a bit over the last few years as Selby Thirsk and Northallerton gained extra services. However you do still find many people travelling 20/30/40 even 50 miles by car to catch a train at York. So while the city has the same population as the Isle of Wight ( c120,000 ) the number of people within the "railhead" catchment area is a more like 300,000* That could be one explanation why it's well served. It generates the business. Wasn't always the case, most expresses passed thru before the mid 80s . York owes a lot the railway , If the East Coast line had followed the path of the A1 , we'd be a stop on the Scarborough branch !

* based on York as nearest rail station with twice hourly London trains

 

[Aictos]

Well East Coast certainly weren't pulling any punches regarding the biggest changes to the East Coast in 20 years, the new May 2011 diagrams are now available in TRUST and a lot has changed.

For example the Newcastle services to and from Kings Cross now use a different running headcode, the Yorks are in and despite one popular campaign, I've been told and I've seen it myself that certain Scottish services are curtailed with the paths used by the native operator in the Scottish region although there does remain a one way direct service.

I don't know what extra services First Scotrail will be running if at all but it's intended for them to use existing East Coast paths.

 

[Invincibles]

Interesting, so that suggests the Chieftain is no more?

A one way service to Aberdeen or Inverness does not seem practical does it?

I actually see the cutting of routes in Scotland as sensible, but I know that there were popular campaigns to save those routes.

Will GNER/GNWR be eyeing up possible additions to their OA applications?

 

[Aictos]

The Aberdeen's are as follows:

07:52 Aberdeen to Kings Cross
09:52 Aberdeen to Kings Cross
14:50 Aberdeen to Kings Cross

16:00 Kings Cross to Aberdeen

Please note all are fast between York and Kings Cross except the 14:50 which also stops at Doncaster, Peterborough and Stevenage between York and Kings Cross.

The Inverness's are as follows:

07:55 Inverness to Kings Cross

Does not stop between York and Kings Cross

The Lincoln's are as follows:

07:20 Lincoln to Kings Cross
21:01 Kings Cross to Lincoln

Both Lincolns are booked as HST

The York's are as follows:

07:08 Kings Cross to York
09:08 Kings Cross to York
11:08 Kings Cross to York
13:08 Kings Cross to York
15:08 Kings Cross to York

10:01 York to Kings Cross
12:01 York to Kings Cross
16:01 York to Kings Cross
18:01 York to Kings Cross

It's interesting to note the Skipton is booked as a HST despite the recent tests
.

The Newark Northgate's are as follows:

11:54 Newark Northgate to Kings Cross
13:54 Newark Northgate to Kings Cross
15:52 Newark Northgate to Kings Cross
17:54 Newark Northgate to Kings Cross

10:08 Kings Cross to Northgate
14:08 Kings Cross to Newark Northgate
16:08 Kings Cross to Newark Northgate

Please note the Newarks are booked for HST traction.

Of course East Coast could easily apply for further changes but this is a highlight of changes to be expected.

 

[Failed Unit]

Looks like it is not the finished article yet as the trains have got to get to Aberdeen! The Lincoln is very late! It will run a year and then get withdrawn for no demand.

I suspect northbounds will remain as per draft. For example 1200 Inverness service will use it's existing path so no Problems for Scotrail. Same with 1400.

If it is going into trust east coast really need to release the timetable, it will be leaked everywhere!

As for another idea of using Retford for Lincoln and Sheffield, Sheffield and Worksop maybe but Lincoln via Spalding is quicker than Lincoln via Gainsborough. I hope the connect well at Peterborough with the joint line and make it clockface. It will never be as quick as Newark but stil very useful!

 

[Aictos]

Yes but as I said although East Coast could apply for late minute changes, it's getting rather tight to do so, I don't know how close to a launch of a timetable that services can be changed as it's a case of finding the paths etc...but in less then 5 months, this timetable will hit the East Coast and hit it, it will.

I don't think much will change between now and May but that's my view and what I've posted is pretty much what you can expected although obvious East Coast can confirm any times via journey planners and timetables etc...

 

[Invincibles]

There look to be quite a few holes in that

No train to Inverness
One short to Aberdeen (I assume that there is still a Leeds to Aberdeen) but this may be ex Edinburgh to form the 09:52.

York gets one more train from London than it sends south.

Newark gets one less train from London than it sends south, but the timing is not such that an ECS from York to Newark would work as I can tell

The diagrams must work but it is still a bit confusing to see how exactly.

 

[Fred26]

I really cannot see the point in terminating at NNG. Any chance they'll stop at St Neots or Huntingdon (just because, a NNG terminator seems quite pointless, so it might as well make the extra stops)?

 

[MCR247]

No they won't.

I'm happy about them! Us from Nottingham can't now get good seats!

 

[Fred26]

Those trains are going to be very quiet.

 

[Failed Unit]

I Don't think the have time Fred26. It takes about 1h20 to Newark so stopping more could make turnarounds risky.

Ajax - despite what is in trust I will be amazed not to see the following.
1000 kings cross - Aberdeen
1200 kings cross - Inverness
1400 kings cross - Aberdeen.
And about 0710 leeds to Aberdeen as per ORR application.

I also suspect the majority of fasts will be London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick and edinburgh. With some missing out Berwick if heading north as per ORR application and draft eureka.

Hope the York stoppers now are a valid connection in east coasts Scottish services (and not XCs inferior offering)

I guess we will find out very soon as t-12 heads closer!

 

[Fred26]

I Don't think they have time Fred26. It takes about 1h20 to Newark so stopping more could make turnarounds risky.

That's a shame.

Will there be an Edinburgh connection from the NNG terminators?

 

[silentone]

I Don't think the have time Fred26. It takes about 1h20 to Newark so stopping more could make turnarounds risky.

Ajax - despite what is in trust I will be amazed not to see the following.
1000 kings cross - Aberdeen
1200 kings cross - Inverness
1400 kings cross - Aberdeen.
And about 0710 leeds to Aberdeen as per ORR application.

I also suspect the majority of fasts will be London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick and edinburgh. With some missing out Berwick if heading north as per ORR application and draft eureka.

Hope the York stoppers now are a valid connection in east coasts Scottish services (and not XCs inferior offering)

I guess we will find out very soon as t-12 heads closer!

The same number of trains to Inverness/Aberdeen are running although I do remember they were having issues with paths north of Edinburgh and current Scotrail running. At the draft stage they had these trains waiting in Edinburgh for around 10-20mins for their current paths and there was uproar over that. Nothing else was heard on it but these trains are still running.

 

[tbtc]

Will there be an Edinburgh connection from the NNG terminators?

Doubt it, as the first stop for many Edinburgh services will be York

The p oint of the Newark terminators is to:

1. Keep the paths for East Coast, so they can use them for Newark as/when they get additional stock (Northern 180s?), and stop any Open Access operator wasting them

2. Same as above, but extend them to York instead (York already has a good London service, but it'd be operationally simpler to run to York than Lincoln as a 225 or HST could run it

3. Speed up the Edinburgh/Newcastle services by not stopping as many at Stevenage/ Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark

4. Hope that EMT revise their 153s to connect at Northgate every other hour

If you were planning the ECML with a blank sheet of paper, you could arrange for six trains an hour from London to Doncaster (not all stopping there, of course), with two to Newcastle, two to Leeds, one to Hull, one other to York/Sunderland/West Yorkshire/ Middlesbrough/ Grimsby (alternate hours?) etc. However, with Open Access and without all lines being wired, there's no chance of anything this organised.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not a massive city but it's a big county and York attracts a lot of long distance park and ride custom. That's been changing a bit over the last few years as Selby Thirsk and Northallerton gained extra services. However you do still find many people travelling 20/30/40 even 50 miles by car to catch a train at York. So while the city has the same population as the Isle of Wight ( c120,000 ) the number of people within the "railhead" catchment area is a more like 300,000* That could be one explanation why it's well served. It generates the business. Wasn't always the case, most expresses passed thru before the mid 80s . York owes a lot the railway , If the East Coast line had followed the path of the A1 , we'd be a stop on the Scarborough branch !

* based on York as nearest rail station with twice hourly London trains

That's fair enough, but I'd claim that if Darlington was the only stop between London and Newcastle (instead of York) you'd have a similar size of population in County Durham/ Cleveland who would use it (from a similar radius)

Doncaster is smaller than York, but does have a few places around it (Dearne Valley towns, North Lincolnshire etc) where it would be the "railhead" too.

 

[blacknight]

Retford's pacer is a pitiful service of little use (you couldn't market Lincoln journeys with the connecting bit on a Pacer after getting off East Coast?!

Changing there is a bit of a pain too, as the E/W platforms are a bit of a hike down along the London platform. And Retford is even less of a destination itself than Newark.

I was not intending to turn Retford into a tourist hot spot but just which station Newark or Retford offered the best timetabled connecting service, as for the hike between platorms at Retford surely thats no worse than having to walk mile at Newark between the 2 stations. Bad as they are even a hourly Pacer is better than nothing.
On another point is there a link in the fact that the poor connecting rail service to Lincoln at Newark Northgate is operated by EMT aka Stagecoach & the fact Stagecoach bus division have introduced a Newark to Grimsby via Lincoln bus service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hope that EMT revise their 153s to connect at Northgate every other hour.

Would have to close Newark flat crossing to passenger traffic before EMT improve their service into & out of Northgate