East Coast Print@Home

[AlterEgo]

If you purchased an Anytime ticket online and made numerous forged/cloned copies of your credit card what would stop you printing off as many of the tickets as you had copies of the card ?

That's part of the reason Print at Home tickets are used for Advance fares only, at least at my TOC.

 

[radamfi]

Yes - and also copy. Then you get the, your equipment is £&(@ arguement. You get 2 people with the same barcode which one is real?

Surely the barcode corresponds to the genuine ticket holder's personal information? So for a forgery to be successful, a new barcode would need to be created that corresponds to the identification produced to the conductor.
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That's part of the reason Print at Home tickets are used for Advance fares only, at least at my TOC.

In the Netherlands, home printed tickets can be used for domestic walk on single journeys and day tickets. They have regular offers where day tickets are cheaper when home printed. Also for walk on international tickets between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Fraud is clearly not seen as a barrier to use for walk on journeys.

 

[WestCoast]

In the Netherlands, home printed tickets can be used for domestic walk on single journeys and day tickets. They have regular offers where day tickets are cheaper when home printed. Also for walk on international tickets between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Fraud is clearly not seen as a barrier to use for walk on journeys.

Yes, it's the case in quite a few countries that you can purchase virtually any ticket as Print@Home, on DB they use QR barcodes and usually swipe the payment card against that, so I guess it's easier to detect any fraud.

 

[YorkshireRider]

That's part of the reason Print at Home tickets are used for Advance fares only, at least at my TOC.

Is there any TOC in the UK which uses P@H for anything other than advance tickets?

 

[Barclay]

Passenger Focus won't have an opinion on the matter. They are there simply as an intermediary and essentially play both customer and TOC off one another until one gives in.

It isn't Passenger Focus who have refunded you - it's East Coast, who are basically saying "go on then" with an eye roll thrown in for good measure.

Very interesting, thanks for that clarification.

I'm pleased to learn it was East Coast that the refund came from, given that they were the ones that took the £150 in the first place. I assume I'm not the only one to complain, so hopefully my request and similar representations from other passengers will lead to the terms of print@home being made very clear at the point of booking.

 

[Bungle73]

Very interesting, thanks for that clarification.

I'm pleased to learn it was East Coast that the refund came from, given that they were the ones that took the £150 in the first place. I assume I'm not the only one to complain, so hopefully my request and similar representations from other passengers will lead to the terms of print@home being made very clear at the point of booking.

They are clear. You just didn't (or couldn't be bothered to) read properly what you were filling in. I'm sorry if this offends you, but in this case my sympathy is zero, especially when you try to blame East Coast for something that was your own fault.

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely the barcode corresponds to the genuine ticket holder's personal information? So for a forgery to be successful, a new barcode would need to be created that corresponds to the identification produced to the conductor.

The situation is as follows, you buy a ticket and I get hold of it. (News International style by hacking your email address) I change the personal information to my own (very easy to do). The bar code is from your ticket, but has my personal details. To make it even worse you print it low quality. They scan the ticket - who's is real. That is if the ticket scans at all, but Yorkshire Rider is saying they have got better recently.

The changing of the ticket and obtaining someone is very easy to do. If you are caught of course you will end up in court for fare evasion. But it is easy enough to do.

I don't understand why anyone would use print at home to be honest, all east coast stations have TVM anyway so why spend money on paper and ink. Station without ticket printing facilaties such as Market Rasen you still have tickets posted to you for free anyway. Print at home isn't allowed there anyway because EMT can't read them on the local trains. Same with smart phone tickets, until I get a discount for them I will stick with collecting from a TVM.

 

[radamfi]

The bar code is from your ticket, but has my personal details.

Sorry, you lost me there.

If the bar code is unchanged, when the guard scans the bar code he will see the name and card number of the person who bought the ticket, so that will ring alarm bells as it will conflict with the ID being presented.

If it is possible to fake the bar code so that it matches the fake personal details, then there is no need to steal a ticket. You might as well create your own from scratch. Obviously that would require the fraudster to know the algorithm that creates the bar codes.
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I don't understand why anyone would use print at home to be honest, all east coast stations have TVM anyway so why spend money on paper and ink. Station without ticket printing facilaties such as Market Rasen you still have tickets posted to you for free anyway. Print at home isn't allowed there anyway because EMT can't read them on the local trains. Same with smart phone tickets, until I get a discount for them I will stick with collecting from a TVM.

On the other hand, you don't have to queue at a TVM before you travel. Mostly that's OK, but there's a risk that there can be a long queue when you get there.

Personally, I normally use TOD, but that's because I normally book my tickets weeks before travel so I pick up the ticket when I pass through my local station next. I then don't have to worry about losing the payment card. If I didn't have a station so convenient and had to pick up an Advance ticket immediately before travel, I would then consider home print.

 

[Failed Unit]

But you can only use print at home on services which have good collection facilities where you don't change TOCs. I am not sure if you can do Montrose - Newark on POH, if you use east coast only.

 

[radamfi]

But you can only use print at home on services which have good collection facilities where you don't change TOCs. I am not sure if you can do Montrose - Newark on POH, if you use east coast only.

At the moment, home print is only available on certain journeys in the UK, so yes, if it isn't available for your journey, then you can't use it. I do book quite a few journeys that are available on home print, but still choose TOD for the reason I mentioned earlier. But if home print was available for walk up journeys like in other countries, then I would probably use it.

 

[sheff1]

I don't understand why anyone would use print at home to be honest..

Because I then know I have the ticket and have no need to either make a separate journey into town to collect it, or arrive at the station earlier than I would like on the day in case of lengthy queues.

Just a pity I can't print all tickets out for the UK in the same way as I can when my journey is in Germany.

 

[WestCoast]

Because I then know I have the ticket and have no need to either make a separate journey into town to collect it, or arrive at the station earlier than I would like on the day in case of lengthy queues.

Just a pity I can't print all tickets out for the UK in the same way as I can when my journey is in Germany.

I agree, it's nice knowing that you have the ticket in hand and don't have to rely on the (sometimes single) TVM at the station, which takes a few minutes at least to sort out and that's providing there's no queue. Plus, my local station doesn't even have a TVM (and it's hardly Berney Arms!), so printing the ticket would be very handy.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree, it's nice knowing that you have the ticket in hand and don't have to rely on the (sometimes single) TVM at the station, which takes a few minutes at least to sort out and that's providing there's no queue. Plus, my local station doesn't even have a TVM (and it's hardly Berney Arms!), so printing the ticket would be very handy.

But if your local station has no TVM - then you can get your tickets posted to you for free. Not much use if you buy 2 days before granted.

 

[radamfi]

But if your local station has no TVM - then you can get your tickets posted to you for free. Not much use if you buy 2 days before granted.

I don't like getting my tickets posted in case they get lost in the post.

 

[Barclay]

They are clear. You just didn't (or couldn't be bothered to) read properly what you were filling in. I'm sorry if this offends you, but in this case my sympathy is zero, especially when you try to blame East Coast for something that was your own fault.

Don't worry, no offence taken! You and I just have differing opinions on degrees of reasonableness in customer service.

If anyone else has faced a similar situation and would like help claiming a refund, send me a PM and I'll see if I can help based on my experience.

 

[bb21]

There is no reason why P@H tickets, when issued in the context of Advance fares (without the unreservable "& Connections" part) cannot come in a similar format as Megatrain.

All the guard needs to do is to tick a validated ticket off against a printed list.

 

[WestCoast]

But if your local station has no TVM - then you can get your tickets posted to you for free. Not much use if you buy 2 days before granted.

Most booking sites won't allow postage if the date of travel is less than a week away and to me it just seems like more hassle against just printing out an A4 sheet. Personal opinion at the end of the day.

Not that this is in any way a model for the railways, but for the past 3 years anyone flying Ryanair (75 million people last year) has had to print out their boarding passes or pay a fine!

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't like getting my tickets posted in case they get lost in the post.

In which case the selling agent will automatically and without quibble arrange an alternate way for you to collect your ticket.

 

[radamfi]

In which case the selling agent will automatically and without quibble arrange an alternate way for you to collect your ticket.

'Without quibble'?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=435258&postcount=13

MKB (et al),

I'm sorry you are still awaiting a response from us - I'll see if I can track down your complaint.

However, we obviously looked into the implications of tickets being lost in the post before getting involved in online selling.

As a transport undertaking selling tickets that are valid on a specific date, we are legally exempt from the delivery clause quoted. However, when tickets are lost in the post, we do look at each case individually, and may make exceptions to the 'no refunds' rule. That said, fraud is a major concern for all online retailers, and taking steps to reduce our exposure - whilst still offering convenience to our customers - is essential.

That said, it's worth weighing up the reasons why we don't offer automatic refunds. We don't charge for 1st class post - unlike some - but do offer recorded delivery for extra peace of mind if you are prepared to pay the extra £2. We also offer free 'ticket on departure' at every staffed London Midland station, either from the ticket office or ticket vending machine. In the purchasing process this is all made very clear. Indeed our default option is 'Ticket on Departure' and our 'more details' section actively encourages the avoidance of 1st class post.

We are keen to offer the facility of free delivery, and are prepared to absorb this cost (as well as the credit card fee), but if the rules on guaranteed delivery were to change, we would simply levy a fee for everyone which I don't think would be universally popular.

It's an interesting subject, that's for sure!

David

 

[Failed Unit]

Most booking sites won't allow postage if the date of travel is less than a week away and to me it just seems like more hassle against just printing out an A4 sheet. Personal opinion at the end of the day.

Not that this is in any way a model for the railways, but for the past 3 years anyone flying Ryanair (75 million people last year) has had to print out their boarding passes or pay a fine!

It is, I have used print at home with many airlines as we have 2 incentives, speed and cost. You can't have the boarding pass posted anyway.

However on rail speed isn't an issue, it is rare to need to queue a long time for a TVM or you have post. My issue is with the ticket cost the same but is more restrictive so I am worse of purchasing it. If POH was the only way of getting the 10% discount I would use it. Like the idea of the mobile tickets, would be interesting arguements if power on the train was missing if you travel from Scotland - London and have you charger with you

I guess the TOC need to get around the fraud risk, which I can still see as very easy to forge. Are you going to default to UPFN for every ticket that doesn't scan?

 

[AlterEgo]

'Without quibble'?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=435258&postcount=13

I would take issue with the response given in that case. As a retailer they are responsible for ensuring the tickets end up with the customer, regardless of whether Royal Mail are at fault or not.

I would be interested to see this tested in court by Trading Standards - that's the first I've heard of a TOC refusing to replace tickets reported lost in transit. Advice I have received in a professional capacity from Trading Standards would seem to substantiate mine (and MKB's) view.

As Tony Mac said in the linked thread: From the Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 20, 4) - the goods remain at the seller’s risk until they are delivered to the consumer.

While others disabused this notion, I do not believe it rings true in this case.

 

[radamfi]

I would take issue with the response given in that case. As a retailer they are responsible for ensuring the tickets end up with the customer, regardless of whether Royal Mail are at fault or not.

I would be interested to see this tested in court by Trading Standards - that's the first I've heard of a TOC refusing to replace tickets reported lost in transit. Advice I have received in a professional capacity from Trading Standards would seem to substantiate mine (and MKB's) view.

As Tony Mac said in the linked thread: From the Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 20, 4) - the goods remain at the seller’s risk until they are delivered to the consumer.

But if there was no risk, there would be no point paying £2 extra for Recorded Delivery (or indeed £7 for Special Delivery). In that thread, LM claim that they are exempt from the delivery clause. Agencies for European rail travel have also told me that if tickets get lost in the post that is my loss, and I would be advised to pay extra for Special Delivery.

 

[jon0844]

I ordered a battery charger for eBuyer.com once and it never turned up. Sadly, as it was out of stock at the time I ordered, I never knew exactly when it came in stock and was sent out (or indeed if it ever was sent out).

eBuyer stated I'd left it too long to report it not turning up, and flatly refuses to investigate. It wasn't sent registered, so that was that. I didn't bother to complain (ISTR it was pretty cheap) and don't know what rights I would have had, but I simply stopped buying anything from them ever again!

 

[island]

I would take issue with the response given in that case. As a retailer they are responsible for ensuring the tickets end up with the customer, regardless of whether Royal Mail are at fault or not.

I would be interested to see this tested in court by Trading Standards - that's the first I've heard of a TOC refusing to replace tickets reported lost in transit. Advice I have received in a professional capacity from Trading Standards would seem to substantiate mine (and MKB's) view.

As Tony Mac said in the linked thread: From the Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 20, 4) - the goods remain at the seller’s risk until they are delivered to the consumer.

While others disabused this notion, I do not believe it rings true in this case.

And as OwlMan correctly pointed out in the said thread, travel tickets are not goods, so the quoted section doesn't apply.

 

[AlterEgo]

And as OwlMan correctly pointed out in the said thread, travel tickets are not goods, so the quoted section doesn't apply.

My understanding that a physical railway ticket is a chattel and is therefore covered - well, that's what Trading Standards have told me anyway (note that they appear to have given conflicting advice).

Strange.

Anyway I fear we are getting slightly off topic.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Is there another situation where you have paid for something, the people selling you the item know you have paid for it, you have proof that you have paid for it yet you can't have it and have to pay for it again ?

 

[Bungle73]

I can you this. There'd be hell to pay if I ordered some tickets to come through the post and they didn't turn up, and then the relevant company tried to worm their way out of sending replacements. That is completely unacceptable.