East Kent to London Season Ticket

[wimbledonpete]

Hi

Am thinking of moving down to the Kent coast and wanted some advice on season ticket routings back to London - would be looking at an annual all zones plus HS. Prices are all much the same depending on whichever area I look at so I was trying to work out which ticket would give most flexibility. For example - if I get a ticket from any of the stations between Sandwich and Martin Mill, would a season ticket allow travel via all of Dover, Ramsgate and Minster? The Routing Guide is confusing me a bit as it refers to Ramsgate Group one way and Dover Priory the other but I don't see a map that takes in that particular line.

Thanks!

 

[Quakkerillo]

Hi

Am thinking of moving down to the Kent coast and wanted some advice on season ticket routings back to London - would be looking at an annual all zones plus HS. Prices are all much the same depending on whichever area I look at so I was trying to work out which ticket would give most flexibility. For example - if I get a ticket from any of the stations between Sandwich and Martin Mill, would a season ticket allow travel via all of Dover, Ramsgate and Minster? The Routing Guide is confusing me a bit as it refers to Ramsgate Group one way and Dover Priory the other but I don't see a map that takes in that particular line.

Thanks!

As there are direct HS1 trains going from St Pancras via Gravesend, Ramsgate, Sandwich, Dover, and Ashford back to St Pancras (and vice versa), the ticket will be okay via both ways, so flexible enough for you I'd say.

 

[PaulJ]

Just beware of cows on the line!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33671351

 

[CyrusWuff]

A quick fares check shows that Dover Priory, Minster and Ramsgate are all the same price as Walmer (for example), so a ticket would be valid either way.

That being the case, I reckon you could use such a ticket across the vast majority of the Southeastern network, and probably via Ashford - Hastings and then up through Tunbridge Wells to boot.

 

[wimbledonpete]

A quick fares check shows that Dover Priory, Minster and Ramsgate are all the same price as Walmer (for example), so a ticket would be valid either way.

That being the case, I reckon you could use such a ticket across the vast majority of the Southeastern network, and probably via Ashford - Hastings and then up through Tunbridge Wells to boot.

Thank you everyone. That's what I'd thought, although I can't see a routing code for Ashford-Hastings-Tunbridge Wells against Dover Priory or Ramsgate Group. I think that if an (eg) Walmer to London season allows travel via Dover and then either Folkestone or Canterbury East, or Ramsgate and then either Canterbury West or Margate, that would be brilliant.

That would in effect give travel over just about all of SouthEastern apart from Hastings, the Medway Valley and Sheerness. Is that definitely the case?

Thank you.

 

[wimbledonpete]

Hi

I hope it's OK to reactivate this as I have another question about routing. So a Walmer to All Zones annual ticket, £6800. Routes valid via Dover or Ramsgate. Looking up the routes in the guide, it comes up with the various routings you'd expect via Sevenoaks, Maidstone, Faversham and High Speed. What it doesn't show is the route via Redhill. However, the Ashford to London routings do include that route.

So my question is - does a ticket pick up the routings from stations it encounters along its route as long as the destination remains the same? Does that make sense?

Thanks!

 

[John @ home]

does a ticket pick up the routings from stations it encounters along its route as long as the destination remains the same?

Sorry, no. The routeing guide is not recursive.

 

[paul1609]

I think in practice it's very unlikely that you would be queried on an all zones ticket. If you were travelling say Walmer to Purley the obvious way to go would be via Redhill, changing at Tonbridge.

 

[maniacmartin]

The rules available to the public about routeing on outboundary travelcards don't cover what to do in this case, however I believe that internal industry documentation states that you can take any permitted route to a station in your zones, as long as it does not involve going through any zones which your ticket does not cover..

Walmer to East Croydon via Redhill is not a mapped route and is not permitted.

Walmer to Purley is also not mapped via Redhill, however it is valid via Redhill by virtue of being the shortest route. Therefore you can break your journey up into two journeys - one to Purley, and another from Purley onwards. Its not clear whether your train has to make a scheduled stop at Purley given you have a season ticket, and debates on this forum on that matter have not reached a consensus.

Walmer - Dover Priory - Ashford Intl - Tonbridge - Redhill - Purley


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry, no. The routeing guide is not recursive.

I believe that the equivalent 'Book of Routes' under British Rail was recursive, and as such it was much smaller and easier to understand than the Routeing Guide of today

 

[wimbledonpete]

The rules available to the public about routeing on outboundary travelcards don't cover what to do in this case, however I believe that internal industry documentation states that you can take any permitted route to a station in your zones, as long as it does not involve going through any zones which your ticket does not cover..

Walmer to East Croydon via Redhill is not a mapped route and is not permitted.

Walmer to Purley is also not mapped via Redhill, however it is valid via Redhill by virtue of being the shortest route. Therefore you can break your journey up into two journeys - one to Purley, and another from Purley onwards. Its not clear whether your train has to make a scheduled stop at Purley given you have a season ticket, and debates on this forum on that matter have not reached a consensus.

Walmer - Dover Priory - Ashford Intl - Tonbridge - Redhill - Purley


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I believe that the equivalent 'Book of Routes' under British Rail was recursive, and as such it was much smaller and easier to understand than the Routeing Guide of today

Thank you for these replies. I do find this whole area fascinating. I have friends in Horley - if I wanted to do this, could I go via Tonbridge and Redhill and if so, would I need an additional ticket from Redhill to Horley or one from Purley to Horley? Without looking I suspect that going to St Pancras and down again with an extension ticket from Purley would be quicker anyway but it's good to know what validity I actually have.

And thank you john_@_home for introducing me to the word "recursive"!

Thinking about it, I'd need a ticket from Purley, wouldn't I, because even though I go through Redhill on the way to Purley it's only valid because it's the shortest route to Purley, not as a route to Redhill itself.

 

[maniacmartin]

You would only need a ticket from Redhill to Horley.

This is because you are permitted to start and end short on a season ticket, so could start/end short at Redhill, taking part of the route to Purley (see National Rail Conditions of Carriage section 30). The train would not need to call at Redhill (see NRCoC section 19C)

 

[wimbledonpete]

You would only need a ticket from Redhill to Horley.

This is because you are permitted to start and end short on a season ticket, so could start/end short at Redhill, taking part of the route to Purley (see National Rail Conditions of Carriage section 30). The train would not need to call at Redhill (see NRCoC section 19C)

That's interesting, thank you Martin. So it looks like the only lines in the area that wouldn't be valid at all are Ashford-Hastings-Tonbridge, Medway Valley and Sheerness. Appreciate the time you've taken.

 

[paul1609]

I have a Headcorn to All Zones Annual Season, I sometimes travel to Portsmouth via Redhill, Ive had no issues with obtaining a Redhill to Portsmouth return (or a boundary zone 6 ticket to Portsmouth if I want to return via Waterloo) from the guards on the Tunbridge to Redhill line.
I think you'll find on a lot of services from Walmer theres no time advantage in going via St Pancras, because of the engineering works at London Bridge Thameslink trains gently trundle through the South London suburbs behind stopping services.
If you do end up at Pancras its probably quicker to get the Victoria Line to Victoria and get a direct Southern service from there but that also has issues at peak times with the rebuilding of Victoria tube station

 

[wimbledonpete]

I have a Headcorn to All Zones Annual Season, I sometimes travel to Portsmouth via Redhill, Ive had no issues with obtaining a Redhill to Portsmouth return (or a boundary zone 6 ticket to Portsmouth if I want to return via Waterloo) from the guards on the Tunbridge to Redhill line.
I think you'll find on a lot of services from Walmer theres no time advantage in going via St Pancras, because of the engineering works at London Bridge Thameslink trains gently trundle through the South London suburbs behind stopping services.
If you do end up at Pancras its probably quicker to get the Victoria Line to Victoria and get a direct Southern service from there but that also has issues at peak times with the rebuilding of Victoria tube station

Useful to know, thank you. Although the Redhill route is a mapped route on a ticket from Headcorn, which it isn't from Walmer. I know now that I'd be OK on the shortest route rule but I would just hope that any inspectors would be aware of this. Maybe I've read too many horror stories on here!

 

[Dai Corner]

[Mods - please move to a new thread if you feel that's appopriate].

I enjoy these discussions on routing as an armchair observer, but wouldn't it make life easier for staff and passengers if SET declared that any season ticket costing more than £x would be valid throughout their area?

 

[John @ home]

does a ticket pick up the routings from stations it encounters along its route as long as the destination remains the same?

Sorry, no. The routeing guide is not recursive.

I believe that the equivalent 'Book of Routes' under British Rail was recursive, and as such it was much smaller and easier to understand than the Routeing Guide of today

Agreed.

Book of Routes

BR25452 - May, 1952

Information regarding Alternative Routes by which passengers may travel without additional charge.

(Page 2)

The information has been compiled to give, readily, the stations at either end of diverging routes over which the same fare applies. It is to be understood that alternative route travel is permitted on tickets between these stations and also on tickets between places further afield which are valid for journeys between the stations named.