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East Lancs Railway protects reputation by sacking leading woman in a male dominated sector?

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Alfonso

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Just came across this: https://mobile.twitter.com/JoanneMCrompton/status/1643878780409110533

This ones going to be a long one kids, so sit down and grab a brew and read. Unfortuntley its a sad tale, let's give it a happy ending for the future generations.

Please read the attached statement because it's really, really important.

I know there are always at least two sides to any story. From what I can gather, Joanne is exactly the sort of person the industry should be encouraging. I can't see how this action can protect the ELR? I don't know the ELR or Joanne, so have no skin in the game or axe to grind, just curious . (Edit... apologies for not following forum rules...on a small phone with fat thumbs but I'll do my best...Joanne Crompton, amongst other things a volunteer firer on the ELR, had her complaint(s) about unfair treatment and unacceptable behavior upheld and was promptly dismissed.
 
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Wyrleybart

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Just came across this: https://mobile.twitter.com/JoanneMCrompton/status/1643878780409110533
I know there are always at least two sides to any story. From what I can gather, Joanne is exactly the sort of person the industry should be encouraging. I can't see how this action can protect the ELR? I don't know the ELR or Joanne, so have no skin in the game or axe to grind, just curious .
Interesting.
I saw news of a public event a couple of weeks ago where the whole traincrew of a particular ELR train were female. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-64880079

One of the world's most famous steam trains, the Flying Scotsman, has been driven by an all female crew on the East Lancashire Railway (ELR) to mark International Women's Day.
It was crewed entirely by a female footplate team made up of ELR volunteers and a Network Rail driver.
The event celebrated the role of women in rail and aimed to encourage more women into engineering careers.
Volunteer Charlotte Instance working on board said it was "a real privilege".

The event celebrated the role of women in rail
"To be on the greatest steam engine of all, it's such an honour," Ms Instance, who was the locomotive cleaner for the all female crew, said.
"I started about a year and a half ago, and that's where everyone starts off on the railway as a cleaner.
"That means not just cleaning the actual engine itself, but getting in underneath, getting the ash out of the pan and smoke pops out and then learning how to fire.
"So to be here today, to be on the greatest steam engine of all, it's such an honour."

ELR volunteer Charlotte Instance said it was "an honour" to be involved
The crew was made up of three volunteers from the ELR, Linda Henderson, Charlotte Instance and Steph Elwood, and driver Beth Furness from Network Rail.
Tracey Parkinson, general manager at ELR said traditionally women did not work on the footplate.

"Women were very much in engineering roles during the first and second world wars, but they actually came into guards positions much later on.
"Traditionally the footwork was closed shop, but in the last 20 to 30 years there's been more and more women coming into the heritage industry and taking up jobs in engineering."
She said the all-female crew on the Flying Scotsman was a way of showing women a role model "that it's already done it".

The Flying Scotsman passed over the River Irwell at Ramsbottom, Greater Manchester
Driver Beth Furness said seeing more women coming to work on the footplate was "fantastic".
"When I was growing up, it was not really the done thing, but as I got involved people were so kind and taught me things and I gained in confidence.
"I gained in experience and it has snowballed into this. I'm on the Flying Scotsman with an all female crew and it's absolutely brilliant."
The event is part of the famous steam locomotive's centenary celebrations and part of a programme of events are planned throughout the rest of year.





When I read about this event I did wonder why Joanne wasn't among them. This incident probably explains it
 
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steamybrian

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I do not feel it appropriate to comment as we do not know the full facts. There may be some other information that is withheld or covered up.
 

Bletchleyite

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There's a much wider problem than this, which is that unlike paid employees, volunteers have no role security at all and are fully "work at will". This can be a huge mental health problem for people, even more so in some cases than the loss of a paid job when they can get another.

Having seen people treated very badly in other voluntary contexts, I do think voluntary work needs to be treated the same as paid work in terms of the rights of the volunteer. Perhaps it should have been part of the Government's "big society" thing.

(On the other hand, bringing one's employer into disrepute is normally gross misconduct for a paid employee, so this might not have prevented this case if they felt she had for whatever reason).
 

zwk500

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Just came across this: https://mobile.twitter.com/JoanneMCrompton/status/1643878780409110533
I know there are always at least two sides to any story. From what I can gather, Joanne is exactly the sort of person the industry should be encouraging. I can't see how this action can protect the ELR? I don't know the ELR or Joanne, so have no skin in the game or axe to grind, just curious .
Has the ELR put it's side of the story up yet? I saw the tweet this morning and was both saddened and angered. However Joanne did say in a reply to the thread that we should wait for the ELR's take on it.
(On the other hand, bringing one's employer into disrepute is normally gross misconduct for a paid employee, so this might not have prevented this case if they felt she had for whatever reason).
The thing is 'bringing into disrepute' is very, very often used as a cover for whistleblowing. It does appear on face value to be the case here - Joanne has brought the ELR into disrepute by highlighting a problem the management would rather stayed under the carpet. As we don't know what went on internally before the public statements, I won't say whether each side's actions are proportionate. However I am sad that somebody who was doing so much great work for bringing the heritage and rail sectors to a newer audience has been booted out in this way.
 

Iskra

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I don’t have any comment to make on the issue.

However, I find the OP’s thread title a bit contradictory, considering the ELR GM is also a ‘leading woman’. I think the OP is stirring here and it’s not necessarily wise to invoke gender politics without knowing the specifics, which we are unlikely to find out.

I do however hope that Joanne feels she can continue her heritage railway enthusiasm elsewhere.
 

Alfonso

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I don’t have any comment to make on the issue.

However, I find the OP’s thread title a bit contradictory, considering the ELR GM is also a ‘leading woman’. I think the OP is stirring here and it’s not necessarily wise to invoke gender politics without knowing the specifics, which we are unlikely to find out.

I do however hope that Joanne feels she can continue her heritage railway enthusiasm elsewhere.
Hmm, I didn't mean to stir, and sorry if I have. One of the many things I like about this forum is that it is (nearly always) measured and respectful, unlike for example Twitter. I did think whether to post or not, perhaps not enough though.
 

Iskra

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Hmm, I didn't mean to stir, and sorry if I have. One of the many things I like about this forum is that it is (nearly always) measured and respectful, unlike for example Twitter. I did think whether to post or not, perhaps not enough though.
Maybe just make the thread title purely factual rather than asking a question/suggesting an opinion? :)
 

richa2002

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My instinct on this is that Ms Crompton trades a little too much on the fact she is a female in a male-dominated role and enjoys the adulation/fawning this brings. The self-obsessiveness of the message posted on Twitter certainly makes me suspicious of her as a character and I suspect she finds her meaning in life by being a female warrior in a male-dominated area. I find it entirely possible this has made her become somewhat of a troublemaker who has become obsessed with finding harrassment/discrimination everywhere she looks.

Of course we don't know the full story but I will always be suspicious of those who think characteristics that can't be helped from birth are something to be constantly shouted about and used to attain victim status.
 

zwk500

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My instinct on this is that Ms Crompton trades a little too much on the fact she is a female in a male-dominated role and enjoys the adulation/fawning this brings. The self-obsessiveness of the message posted on Twitter certainly makes me suspicious of her as a character and I suspect she finds her meaning in life by being a female warrior in a male-dominated area. I find it entirely possible this has made her become somewhat of a troublemaker who has become obsessed with finding harrassment/discrimination everywhere she looks.
Dare I suggest that this attitude is precisely the thing Ms Crompton is attempting to highlight? In what I've seen of her work (which isn't much I admit) she seems to want nothing more than to be able to enjoy driving and firing trains. She does not appear to be an activist or radical in any way. She does campaign to get more women into rail, but that's very, very different from being an agitator as you are suggesting. The rail industry DOES need more women in it across the board. However she has come up against harassment or bullying for a characteristic she has no control over and when highlighted it is *her* who is seen as the troublemaker, not the people who are harassing her.

You don't have to look hard to find racism, sexism and pretty much any other form of discrimination in Britain. People who experience it very rarely go looking for it, because it feels absolutely horrible to be subjected to.
 

richa2002

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Dare I suggest that this attitude is precisely the thing Ms Crompton is attempting to highlight? In what I've seen of her work (which isn't much I admit) she seems to want nothing more than to be able to enjoy driving and firing trains. She does not appear to be an activist or radical in any way. She does campaign to get more women into rail, but that's very, very different from being an agitator as you are suggesting. The rail industry DOES need more women in it across the board. However she has come up against harassment or bullying for a characteristic she has no control over and when highlighted it is *her* who is seen as the troublemaker, not the people who are harassing her.

You don't have to look hard to find racism, sexism and pretty much any other form of discrimination in Britain. People who experience it very rarely go looking for it, because it feels absolutely horrible to be subjected to.
Since when did not caring what gender someone is and being suspicious of someone who constantly brings it up be seen as something worthy of highlighting? I'm tired of the increasing sexism and racism in modern society from those who think these things are relevant in judging someone's character or ability to perform a job. Especially when they weaponise it for their own gain.

I must repeat, I don't know the full story, as you don't either, and of course any harrassement or bullying is unacceptable, if indeed it is that and not just hyper-sensitivity. Could she be mistaking such behaviour towards her as sexism when in fact it's her character some on the railway perhaps don't get on with? Who knows, we both certainly don't, I'm just inferring from the way she conducts herself publicly. It would certainly rub me up the wrong way and that's nothing to do with her gender.

To repeat another part of my post too, it's the way she goes about highlighting these alledged problems which I find suspicious. There are ways of dealing with things and I simply don't think her very public/self-referential way of doing it is something I can trust. When you get rewarded so much for highlighting such things, the temptation will be there to exaggerate so as to continue to be rewarded, whether that's through fawning tweets or patronising "Women in Rail" awards.

You also say the rail industry needs more women across the board? Why? Why do you care about someone's gender when assessing suitability for a role? As long as everyone is judged equally, I couldn't care less about their gender/race/sexuality etc.

Also, you suggest Britain is a hotbed of discrimination. What is this based on and if Britain is so bad, can you please list some countries which you feel do a lot better in this respect? It's also rather strange that such a racist country continually attracts tens of thousands of newcomers every year. I suggest if you wish to see a truly sexist or racist society, look away from Western society.
 
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507020

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After reading this I can safely say I’ll have less of a guilty conscience if the ELR is compulsory purchased by Network Rail and reopened as part of the main railway. That would be one way of deposing the current misogynistic management.
 

Bertie the bus

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Hmm, I didn't mean to stir, and sorry if I have. One of the many things I like about this forum is that it is (nearly always) measured and respectful, unlike for example Twitter. I did think whether to post or not, perhaps not enough though.
It is very difficult to interpret posting a Tweet by someone with an alleged grievance and no other information at all as anything but stirring.
 

8A Rail

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Dare I suggest that this attitude is precisely the thing Ms Crompton is attempting to highlight? In what I've seen of her work (which isn't much I admit) she seems to want nothing more than to be able to enjoy driving and firing trains. She does not appear to be an activist or radical in any way. She does campaign to get more women into rail, but that's very, very different from being an agitator as you are suggesting. The rail industry DOES need more women in it across the board. However she has come up against harassment or bullying for a characteristic she has no control over and when highlighted it is *her* who is seen as the troublemaker, not the people who are harassing her.

You don't have to look hard to find racism, sexism and pretty much any other form of discrimination in Britain. People who experience it very rarely go looking for it, because it feels absolutely horrible to be subjected to.
I totally agree with your thoughts.

May be some people need to watch this 25 minute video, and may learn a thing or two about preserved railways -
and some of the references in her speech is regards to the ELR although she does not mention the railway by name. Joanne is only standing / speaking up for other women in the preserved railway movement, get equal treatment as well as attempting to improve things too. To be honest, parts of the preserved railway movement generally needs a good look at themselves regardless of sexual orientation, were attitudes and thinking need to change as one thing they need is volunteers which will become harder to recruit as time goes on.

In the meantime, Joanne has been shortlisted for the 'Inspirational Woman of the Year' in the Women in Rail awards - see: https://mobile.twitter.com/JoanneMCrompton/status/1643621639072956422.

As for the ELR, I suspect it is an own goal, rather than the issue go away, just highlights it even more sadly.
 

AlterEgo

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You don't have to scratch the surface very deeply to find the sort of attitudes she speaks against, I see.

Ms Crompton's complaint was upheld. That is, it was found she had a case and was in the right. The railway then told her not to come back as a volunteer because of the embarrassment this brought upon the organisation and because it was easier to do that than actually tackle the problem.

The ELR chairman has responded to this woman's tweet by blocking anyone who has amplified it, so I think we will have to wait a while for either "their side of the story" or any meaningful change there.
 

YorkshireBear

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You don't even have to scratch in my experience the attitude is there plain to see. No idea about the specifics here but certainly in my experience the sexism is in plain sight and difficult to overcome.
 

railfan99

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I do not feel it appropriate to comment as we do not know the full facts. There may be some other information that is withheld or covered up.

I too have no opinion on the matter as we've only heard one side of the story, and even then it's not fully explained (presumably as it might be defamatory) but Twitter worldwide has been a hotbed for radical lefties to publicise their views.

It's hardly a source one might regard as credible.
 

zwk500

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but Twitter worldwide has been a hotbed for radical lefties to publicise their views.

It's hardly a source one might regard as credible.
Twitter sees just as much conspiracy theory bull**** and misinformation from the radical right as it does from anywhere else.

It's the online equivalent of shouting in the pub.
 

Bletchleyite

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Twitter sees just as much conspiracy theory bull**** and misinformation from the radical right as it does from anywhere else.

It's the online equivalent of shouting in the pub.

The one thing that is true of Twitter is that "everyone hates a moderate". Polarised views are shouted in all directions and if you disagree you're blocked.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Twitter sees just as much conspiracy theory bull**** and misinformation from the radical right as it does from anywhere else.

It's the online equivalent of shouting in the pub.
Or muttering into your pint, but yes.

Be interesting to ascertain what the actual truth of the matter is. Not sure we've heard the whole story yet.
 

fgwrich

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The ELR chairman has responded to this woman's tweet by blocking anyone who has amplified it, so I think we will have to wait a while for either "their side of the story" or any meaningful change there.

It's odder than that - a number of people I follow on there have followed Joanne for a while, but hadn't said anything at all until this blew up. Now they've found they were already blocked by the ELR Chairman without having even saying a word! It's all a very sorry state of affairs, and one which will probably take some time to heal from. As Joanne says, it's a conversation that needs to keep happening.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's odder than that - a number of people I follow on there have followed Joanne for a while, but hadn't said anything at all until this blew up. Now they've found they were already blocked by the ELR Chairman without having even saying a word! It's all a very sorry state of affairs, and one which will probably take some time to heal from. As Joanne says, it's a conversation that needs to keep happening.

There are tools out there that will autoblock anyone who follows a given person, or who replied to or liked or retweeted a given Tweet. He'll just have used one of those.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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There are tools out there that will autoblock anyone who follows a given person, or who replied to or liked or retweeted a given Tweet. He'll just have used one of those.

To be honest, you only needed the first five words in that post. A complete tool, in the case of this individual.
 

AlterEgo

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It's odder than that - a number of people I follow on there have followed Joanne for a while, but hadn't said anything at all until this blew up. Now they've found they were already blocked by the ELR Chairman without having even saying a word! It's all a very sorry state of affairs, and one which will probably take some time to heal from. As Joanne says, it's a conversation that needs to keep happening.
Yes I've had a few people tweet me today saying the same thing. It's all very weird.
 

8A Rail

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There are tools out there that will autoblock anyone who follows a given person, or who replied to or liked or retweeted a given Tweet. He'll just have used one of those.
Clearly that has happened but not done themselves any favours by doing so which makes it 'appear' to back up the 'own goal' they (ELR) have created as well creating a wrong impression too - some of the blocks include magazine / news Editors too which just raises the issue completely rather than hoping it go away!

(However, being 'twitter' I accept they would not want to get possible abuse (which they would get) from some people which is understandable but you just block people who are being abusive anyway, not everyone who has a particular person as one of those they watch).
 
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Coolzac

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Whilst I agree that we won't know everything that's gone on, having heard her speak and reading her statement, it hardly has the feel of someone who is being unreasonable and on a rampage to destroy the ELR. It seems more like someone who is passionate about what they do and actually is very gracious.

It also shows how organisations fight change - there is a long list of organisations who say one thing to the public in terms of equality and diversity but actually behind closed doors act completely differently. And how they treat whistleblowers who highlight the darker sides of their operations.

What the ELR need to realise is that if they do change, it will help them be more successful in the future. How many female volunteers will have been treated just the same, but just quietely left rather than fight it? What a major loss to an organisation. Also, the more female volunteers they have, the more will be encouraged to join in the future. How many young girls will see a female driver and think 'Wow, I want to be just like her!'.

I hope for their sake and the sake of heritage lines up and down the country, they can take the right lessons from this affair and change for the better!
 

Halwynd

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Many years ago, as a twenty-odd year old enthusiast, I became an ELR member - it was my local preserved railway.

After reading an article in the members magazine highlighting the need for volunteers, I decided to attend a volunteers introduction day which in those days were held on various Saturday mornings throughout the year. I was the only volunteer on the day I chose.

A pleasant enough chap gave me a brief introduction but there was no enthusiasm and no persuasion or encouragement for me to join. I was shown around some of the Bury Bolton Street area and then left to my own devices. There were a couple of small groups of staff on the station; keen and enthusiastic I introduced myself to a couple of them but the conversation was awkwards and I left them with the feeling that I had some form of contagious disease. When the 'session' came to an end, everyone seemed to have disappeared. I suppose as a young lad I didn't really know what to expect, but it wasn't this and I didn't bother persuing it further.

I continued to visit the ELR but allowed my membership to lapse. Welcomes were never warm at the ELR, particularly at Ramsbottom, the station at which I usually arrived, but two incidents left a bad taste. On one occasion I was waiting to take a snap of a train arriving at Bolton Street station. I was just stood there, middle of the platform, nowhere near the edge, not using a tripod or anything else, on my own, quiet and minding my own business. I was aware of someone approaching and then hovering behind me and just as the train arrived he stepped in front of me and stood still, blocking my ability to take the photograph. He then donned a hi-vis and walked to the signalbox towards the South of the station. I was left in no doubt that it was done deliberately, presumably for some sort of peverse childish pleasure.

Another time, during an event day - when it was my habit to drive to Ramsbottom, park in the station car park, catch a train to Bury for a few hours photography at Bolton Street and then return to Ramsbottom - a Guard on my outward train to Bury suggested that by holding a full line return (rather than an event day All Day Rover), I might be attempting to fare-dodge. Photography rather than travel was my interest so I always used to 'volunteer' to pay for a full line ticket as a way of throwing a few quid back into the ELR bucket. Never again though - that incident was about ten years ago, it happened in front of other passengers and left me feeling quite embarrassed. What a way to treat a paying visitor I thought and decided to call it a day with the East Lancs - I haven't been back since.

I don't know the in's and out's of this case, and of course there are two sides to a story. Many years ago I too had the impression that there was a certain culture, and perhaps a clique, at the ELR. But I was a young lad - not a woman - wanting to become part of this very male environment. As a passenger, all I can say is that my experiences at other preserved railways such as at the Keighley & Worth Valley, the Severn Valley and the North Yorkshire Moors have been far more welcoming and enjoyable than any visit I ever made to the East Lancs.
 

Mothball

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If I am understanding this, and just like everyone else here i dont have the full picture, she was dismissed as a volunteer straight after her case was found in favour, therefore she had said something on social media before the ELR have had chance to resolve the case. Our small society has a social media policy that mentions that sort of thing so I presume the ELR have something similar. If that's the case and she has breached it then it's hardly a surprise to be dismissed, being a victim doesn't make you immune to the rules.
 

eldomtom2

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I am going to add my voice to those hesitant to express any opinion absent a statement from the ELR.
 

Merle Haggard

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Perhaps two personal anecdotes about the E.L.R. experience may be of interest.
1) I travelled from home, some distance, with an early start, for a mid-week day on the railway. The train was formed of 4 coaches; the first was reserved for a coach party and the second was an RMB. It was full, and the double-glazed windows were full of moisture so it was impossible to see through them so I tried to make my way to the 3rd coach to be told 'keep out, filming!'. So I stood to Ramsbottom, where I got out to photo the train. As soon as I stepped on the platform I was shouted at again 'keep away, filming!'. I approached a member of ELR staff and pointed out that I wasn't having a very enjoyable day and his response was "S*** happens!".
2) There was a short news item in the Railway Magazine regarding a newly-restored coach on the ELR. It had been in the '15 guinea special' and the article asked for anyone who had photo'd it to get in touch with the railway. Perhaps sadly, I had indeed photo'd it on that Aug 11, so I emailed the railway with an image. The response was a fairly curt 'why have you sent this?' I replied to say it was in response to an appeal. The answer then was 'who asked for it? When I said I didn't know, the answer was 'we've got 1500 members how can I know who it was?' I replied, apologising for wasting their time. Whoosh!
Sorry if t sounds like a whinge list, but they do try really hard to drive you away!
 
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