East Midlands franchise prospectus

[43096]

Fairly sure the AT300s can only do 110mph on diesel, might even be only 100mph. Not sure about raising pantographs on the move but I can't imagine Network Rail would be too happy with it, too much risk of it going wrong and ripping the wires down.

The diversionary routes might only be 90mph but as the mainline isn't likely to be electrified north of Kettering during the next franchise not having 125mph capability would be an issue.

It's worse than that. The knitting south of Bedford is only fit for 100mph currently and would be expensive to upgrade and would presumably divert resources from the new wiring projects.

125mph diesels are required and AT300 would need a lot of engines to meet that (probably 7 of 9 cars). Once you get above 5 engines it becomes expensive in terms of maintenance of that many engines, such that separate loco/power car is better value. So what price upgraded HSTs or 68+Mark 5 (125mph is an option on 68s according to Stadler)?

 

[RichmondCommu]

125mph diesels are required and AT300 would need a lot of engines to meet that (probably 7 of 9 cars). Once you get above 5 engines it becomes expensive in terms of maintenance of that many engines, such that separate loco/power car is better value. So what price upgraded HSTs or 68+Mark 5 (125mph is an option on 68s according to Stadler)?

Due to their weight as I understand it class 68's are restricted to 90 mph running on the MML. I think you could also argue that five coaches on many MML services would be nothing like long enough.
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It's worse than that. The knitting south of Bedford is only fit for 100mph currently and would be expensive to upgrade and would presumably divert resources from the new wiring projects.

Some time a go Rail Magazine reported that the electrification budget for the MML had been revised to take into account that the wiring needed to be upgraded south of Bedford. And given that there is a fair amount of >100 mph south of Bedford it would surely be an act of folly to not carry out the upgrade.

 

[Kneedown]

The diversionary routes might only be 90mph but as the mainline isn't likely to be electrified north of Kettering during the next franchise not having 125mph capability would be an issue.

Who says it's unlikely to be electrified during the next franchise?
IIRR the current estimate for the entire route to Sheffield is around 2024? Thats within a 7 year franchise. Consideration is even being given to a 10-15year franchise.
Plenty of bridge work still underway north of Leicester currently.

 

[43096]

Due to their weight as I understand it class 68's are restricted to 90 mph running on the MML. I think you could also argue that five coaches on many MML services would be nothing like long enough.

Eh? I said Mark 5 coaches (i.e. Similar to the new TPE stock), not 5 coaches!

 

[edwin_m]

With Stoke-on-Trent I think as the people building HS2 have decided that the 19th largest Urban Area doesn't need an HS2 station the city council will push for more funding from Westminster for better train services and they wanted to double the number of trains to Uttoxeter.

Mind you though service improvements probably won't happen as Stoke-on-Trent is often overlooked by Westminster as they prefer to focus on London and their "Northern Powerhouse" which is probably why the city voted to leave the EU in very large numbers to tell Westminster to stop ignoring them.

Thereby handing the power currently held by the EU to Westminster to ignore them even more. You couldn't make it up.

HS2 can't serve everywhere. The idea is to take the passengers between the big cities on HS2 so that there is more capacity on the classic route for other stations. So Stoke as the 19th largest urban area gets the same deal as Liverpool as the 4th largest (according to Google) - no HS infrastructure* but most likely through London trains in faster times than the current ones. There should also be better services to other WCML stations.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Eh? I said Mark 5 coaches (i.e. Similar to the new TPE stock), not 5 coaches!

Oh right, fair enough! However I think there would be a significant reduction in levels of service if you employed loco hauled stock which was restricted to 90 mph running.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Any word on the Invitation to Tender?

 

[Pumbaa]

Delayed. Competition postponed and an enhanced DA for EMT.

Southeastern is next with West Coast following after.

 

[Domh245]

How delayed? Is it jumping past the SE and West Coast awards, or is it just closer to them than before? And is it worth getting the HSTs ready for working post 2020?

 

[WatcherZero]

After election South Eastern consultation events delayed due to Purdah have been rescheduled June 12th.

Monday 19 June, 4:00pm to 7:00pm
London Charing Cross, station concourse
Tuesday 20 June, 4:00pm to 7:00pm
St Pancras, station concourse
Thursday 22 June, 4:00pm to 7:00pm
London Bridge, station concourse
Monday 26 June, 4:00pm to 7:00pm
Gravesham Civic Centre, Gravesend, DA12 1AU
Tuesday 27 June, 4:00pm to 7:00pm
Canterbury West, station concourse

No update on East Midlands yet, was supposed to be tendered in May but that was obviously during General Election campaign. The Cross Country direct award agreement signed last September was also published today.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Delayed. Competition postponed and an enhanced DA for EMT.

Southeastern is next with West Coast following after.

Is this official yet/do you have a source?

 

[Pumbaa]

Official but no source as yet.

When Southeastern is shortlisted (anticipated to be end of June) hopefully DfT will release a revised franchising schedule.

 

[Class 170101]

The Cross Country direct award agreement signed last September was also published today.

Can we view this and if so where please? A brief look has yielded nothing of interest so far.

 

[kevjs]

Nottingham City and Nottinghamshire County Councils are having there joint transport meeting tomorrow.

A few of the points they have in the agenda are http://committee.nottinghamcity.gov... on Strategic Planning and Transport.pdf?T=10

(l) initially it was intended that the new contract would go live on 22 July 2018, but
November 2018 is now the more likely implementation date;
(m) the length of the new contract is likely to be 7-9 years to enable 2 franchise periods
prior to the introduction of HS2;
(n) Transport for the North is very much involved in both the Trans-Pennine and East
Midlands franchises in a way EMC has not been able;
(o) there are a whole host of issues regarding potential new rolling stock as there is unlikely
to be electrification of the Midland Mainline line in the near future which affects the
commissioning of much needed new rolling stock. A proportion of the existing rolling
stock is reasonable, including the 222 class trains which parallel the performance of
electric trains and provide the required braking and acceleration rates to provide a
timely service, but the older HST stock is not suitable to continue using throughout the
next contract session. It is possible that technology will progress to a point where
hydrogen trains will be the preferred future option, but currently it is predicted that bimode
stock may be the interim solution. Once electrification is available on the
mainline, bi-mode stock can continue to be used whilst other rolling stock can be moved
to other lines, as long as classic compatibility is maintained. Whichever mode, high
quality, low operating cost rolling stock is required.

The last bold bit rules out the 153/156 mobile saunas then...

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose it's inevitable that clueless Councils will fixate on shiny new trains. They should sort out the doors and toilets ready for 2020 and have done with it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I suppose it's inevitable that clueless Councils will fixate on shiny new trains. They should sort out the doors and toilets ready for 2020 and have done with it.

Nothing wrong with shiny new trains though.

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing wrong with shiny new trains though.

That may be the case.

However, I just don't see the point of building, and getting lumbered with another load of bi-modes, which in terms of performance seem to suffer from being 'Jack of all trades, master at none' just so that the Council doesn't feel left out.

Great Western, Scotrail and Cross Country are showing that HST's can be updated to work beyond 2020. Get this done so that the line can be electrified fully in good time, and a rolling stock replacement suitable for the longer term can be sourced.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The MML is unsuitable for bi-modes anyway, you'd have to run at 100mph on electric or 125mph under the wires on diesel mode, raise the pantograph from Bedford as far as Kettering, then lower it again and rumble along on diesel mode again north of Kettering. The wires south of Bedford are currently unsuitable for anything more than 100mph and there's no short to mid term timescale for them to be uprated!

 

[pemma]

The last bold bit rules out the 153/156 mobile saunas then...

Don't read too much in to vague statements.

Northern Connect services will have to have 'reliable air conditioning' but it seems DfT accepted a bid to use 158s on some of those services with no mentioned changes to the existing air conditioning to make it more reliable. It also seems 'like new interior' means as good as the train's interior was when it was built not an interior that you would expect on a brand new train.

 

[pemma]

Can we view this and if so where please? A brief look has yielded nothing of interest so far.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cross-country-2016-rail-franchise-agreement

 

[Carlisle]

I suppose it's inevitable that clueless Councils will fixate on shiny new trains. They should sort out the doors and toilets ready for 2020 and have done with it.

Surely Councils are no more clueless than some other parts of the industry have been, in the previous Northern franchise for example it was hard enough to get them interested even in light refurbishments, let alone anything more ambitious

 

[RichmondCommu]

That may be the case.

However, I just don't see the point of building, and getting lumbered with another load of bi-modes, which in terms of performance seem to suffer from being 'Jack of all trades, master at none' just so that the Council doesn't feel left out.

.

How many bi-modes currently operating on our network suffer from performance issues?

 

[yorksrob]

How many bi-modes currently operating on our network suffer from performance issues?

I believe the issue with bi-modes is that they don't have the weight advantages of a fully electric train whilst at the same time they don't get to 125mph in diesel mode.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely Councils are no more clueless than some other parts of the industry have been, in the previous Northern franchise for example it was hard enough to get them interested even in light refurbishments, let alone anything more ambitious

Fair point, although I'd probably put that down to parsimony more than cluelessness!

 

[edwin_m]

How many bi-modes currently operating on our network suffer from performance issues?

How many bi-modes are currently operating on our network? If that relates to passenger service, and excluding the Queen travelling from Slough a few days back, the answer is zero.

 

[thenorthern]

Has there been anything new on the next East Midlands Franchise yet?

I am interested in rolling stock as currently the East Midlands Franchise seems to have some of the oldest rolling stock with the Class 222s being by far the newest stock but even then they are 14 years old.

I remember back in 1999 when the Crewe to Derby Line had been given brand new Class 170 trains and the service ran through to Manchester Airport in one direction and Nottingham in the other direction, completely different from the Class 153s on the shorter Crewe to Derby service.

 

[Mordac]

Has there been anything new on the next East Midlands Franchise yet?

I am interested in rolling stock as currently the East Midlands Franchise seems to have some of the oldest rolling stock with the Class 222s being by far the newest stock but even then they are 14 years old.

I remember back in 1999 when the Crewe to Derby Line had been given brand new Class 170 trains and the service ran through to Manchester Airport in one direction and Nottingham in the other direction, completely different from the Class 153s on the shorter Crewe to Derby service.

Rumour is it that the franchise is getting extended again.

 

[47802]

Rumour is it that the franchise is getting extended again.

Indeed Mr Miles on WNXX seems to think so, that it will sort out 2020 requirements etc, that EMT HST's will not be life extend, supposedly looking at a new diesel fleet rather than Bi-modes, debate as whether just to replace the HST's Dft pref, or replace the 222's as well Stagecoach pref.

 

[thenorthern]

Indeed Mr Miles on WNXX seems to think so, that it will sort out 2020 requirements etc, that EMT HST's will not be life extend, supposedly looking at a new diesel fleet rather than Bi-modes, debate as whether just to replace the HST's Dft pref, or replace the 222's as well Stagecoach pref.

The Midland Main Line should (in theory) be electrified during the next franchise although I doubt it will be. Given that from St Pancras to Bedford is already electrified I would think that if new trains did come in bi-mode trains that can switch power source well moving could be a reality.

Given the age of the East Midlands Trains fleet I would think new trains will have to happen as currently other than the Class 222s the fleet is broadly similar to that at privatisation which was 20 years ago for the local trains and 21 years ago for the main line trains.

 

[47802]

The Midland Main Line should (in theory) be electrified during the next franchise although I doubt it will be. Given that from St Pancras to Bedford is already electrified I would think that if new trains did come in bi-mode trains that can switch power source well moving could be a reality.

Given the age of the East Midlands Trains fleet I would think new trains will have to happen as currently other than the Class 222s the fleet is broadly similar to that at privatisation which was 20 years ago for the local trains and 21 years ago for the main line trains.

As I believe has already been stated the current overheads to Bedford only support 100mph max running, with no plans to upgrade them as things currently stand.

Seems to various comments floating about that the bulk of MML electrification wont be happening any time soon, even some suggestions that Transpennine Electrification wont happen either. Lets face it electrification hasn't just been shafted by Network Rails progress and costs, its been annihilated.