East-West Rail (EWR): Alternative options and speculation

[cle]

What do we envisage for Oxford? Another bay? It implies another through line, but surely that would be on the western side, which isn't likely to see EWR services.

The western side could do with being rebuilt as an island also, though. So many different plans and proposals for Oxford station. And it doesn't even mention Cowley - even though that had been raised as a Marylebone extension (but would free up bay space for EWR).

 

[The Planner]

What do we envisage for Oxford? Another bay? It implies another through line, but surely that would be on the western side, which isn't likely to see EWR services.

The western side could do with being rebuilt as an island also, though. So many different plans and proposals for Oxford station. And it doesn't even mention Cowley - even though that had been raised as a Marylebone extension (but would free up bay space for EWR).

Cowley isn't EWR so will be why they won't include it as it would assume they will be paying for it. It will be a dusting off of the old independent line option that got canned very early on in the project I reckon.

 

[mr_jrt]

I still think they missed a trick with Oxford by not getting rid of the through lines so they could get 6 through platforms and a bay or two on the eastern side in the same footprint.

 

[JamesT]

What do we envisage for Oxford? Another bay? It implies another through line, but surely that would be on the western side, which isn't likely to see EWR services.

The western side could do with being rebuilt as an island also, though. So many different plans and proposals for Oxford station. And it doesn't even mention Cowley - even though that had been raised as a Marylebone extension (but would free up bay space for EWR).

The rebuilding proposal by the city council was to have two islands, one by adding a new line to the west, the other by turning one of the existing bays into a through line on the eastern side.

 

[The Planner]

I still think they missed a trick with Oxford by not getting rid of the through lines so they could get 6 through platforms and a bay or two on the eastern side in the same footprint.

You are going to have to explain how that would work.

 

[mr_jrt]

The down platform would be the same as proposed, i.e. converted to an island. That gives you the first two. Then, you build out the up platform over the up roads, giving you three platforms. You then demolish the former up platform to give the final face and four platforms. You can then build another island in the spot adjacent to the current up platform, which would enable 6 though lines. You are then left with room to the east for a couple of north-facing bays, if desired.

As they say, a picture says a thousand words: http://random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Oxford 2

Do bear in mind I made that years ago, so no idea if anything has impinged on it since.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure how all of that would work with Botley Road, some serious digging and gradients on either side, its got a 4m restriction as it is.

 

[zwk500]

The down platform would be the same as proposed, i.e. converted to an island. That gives you the first two. Then, you build out the up platform over the up roads, giving you three platforms. You then demolish the former up platform to give the final face and four platforms. You can then build another island in the spot adjacent to the current up platform, which would enable 6 though lines. You are then left with room to the east for a couple of north-facing bays, if desired.

As they say, a picture says a thousand words: http://random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Oxford 2

Do bear in mind I made that years ago, so no idea if anything has impinged on it since.

It's hardly the same footprint though is it?

FWIW here's Oxford City council's plan, which is broadly what NR are thinking of: https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20182/regeneration_and_development/949/oxford_station_masterplan

 

[Class 170101]

I think from previous posts in this discussion the biggest problem is fitting them in between Bletchley and Milton Keynes?

Guess they could go to Bedford or terminate Bletchley instead.

 

[mr_jrt]

It's essentially exactly the same footprint - the image it's based on is taken from an official proposal. The only difference is that the pedestrian link bridge is slightly further east (so would have to be higher due to Botley Road), and a rail deck about 3-4m further east, roughly where the pedestrian bridge is proposed. Other than that, it's just the proposed building over the other side needs to be slightly shaved to give clearance for the 6th through line.

 

[Roger B]

Guess they could go to Bedford or terminate Bletchley instead.

Not terribly helpful for Aylesbury / MK commuters, having to change train (and platform) at Bletchley! Such an arrangement is hardly likely to endear itself to the local MP and those pressing for an Aylesbury / Milton Keynes service for commuters, per zwk500's post. Given the many trains between Euston and MK, why not terminate one of these short at Bletchley, and allow the train form Aylesbury to take its path? But doubtless that's been discussed several times already in this thread - even though it's pure speculation and the title of this thread states that it's not for speculation!

It does amuse me that this thread is one of the few (if not the only) that specifies 'not-speculation' in its title, but seems to consist of little else - and now I've been drawn into adding to it. Oops! Sorry mods!

 

[daodao]

It would be useful for connections if the EW trains terminating at Oxford were extended to Didcot in lieu of the Oxford-Didcot shuttle trains. This would also reduce pressure on Oxford station by reducing the number of trains terminating there.

 

[zwk500]

It would be useful for connections if the EW trains terminating at Oxford were extended to Didcot in lieu of the Oxford-Didcot shuttle trains. This would also reduce pressure on Oxford station by reducing the number of trains terminating there.

But increases pressure on the section between Oxford and Didcot and increases pressure at Didcot itself, unless EWR calls all-station between Oxford and Didcot which will extend journey times and increases performance risk to both parts of the route.

 

[daodao]

But increases pressure on the section between Oxford and Didcot and increases pressure at Didcot itself, unless EWR calls all-station between Oxford and Didcot which will extend journey times and increases performance risk to both parts of the route.

Why does it increase pressure? I stated that the 2 tph EWR service could be extended to Didcot in lieu of (i.e. replacing) the Oxford-Didcot shuttle trains, which would obviously include calls at intermediate stations. It actually reduces pressure on Oxford station itself by eliminating terminating trains. It would only be a short extension and should not significantly increase performance risk; the lines are all double track.

 

[Tobbes]

Why does it increase pressure? I stated that the 2 tph EWR service could be extended to Didcot in lieu of (i.e. replacing) the Oxford-Didcot shuttle trains, which would obviously include calls at intermediate stations. It actually reduces pressure on Oxford station itself by eliminating terminating trains. It would only be a short extension and should not significantly increase performance risk; the lines are all double track.

As well as improving connectivity from EWR to GWML....

 

[London Trains]

Couldnt the EWR services be extended to Reading in the paths of the XC services post HS2?

The south coast services will be pointless post HS2 due to journey times being faster via OOC (to Reading) or via Euston - Waterloo or OOC - Clapham Jct (to Basingstoke / Southampton / Bournemouth) so could be replaced with a 2tph Birmingham to Oxford semi fast (Bham Intl, Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa, Banbury) and then EWR services could use the same XC paths between Oxford and Reading (either calling at Didcot or nonstop)

 

[The Planner]

Couldnt the EWR services be extended to Reading in the paths of the XC services post HS2?

The south coast services will be pointless post HS2 due to journey times being faster via OOC (to Reading) or via Euston - Waterloo or OOC - Clapham Jct (to Basingstoke / Southampton / Bournemouth) so could be replaced with a 2tph Birmingham to Oxford semi fast (Bham Intl, Coventry, Kenilworth, Leamington Spa, Banbury) and then EWR services could use the same XC paths between Oxford and Reading (either calling at Didcot or nonstop)

So what about Coventry, Leamington, Banbury and Oxford to the South? That traffic presumably is forced into two or more changes to get south of Reading?

 

[London Trains]

So what about Coventry, Leamington, Banbury and Oxford to the South? That traffic presumably is forced into two or more changes to get south of Reading?

Coventry to anywhere south of Reading would be much faster via Birmingham Interchange.

Oxford would be one simple change at Reading, not much of an issue.

I dont see Leamington and Banbury having much of a market for services south of Reading to Bournemouth, Southampton or Basingstoke (probably only a few occasional holidays/day trips (post COVID)) so its basically a non issue.

 

[Glenn1969]

But force people to change and many that can will just drive instead

 

[Ianno87]

I dont see Leamington and Banbury having much of a market for services south of Reading to Bournemouth, Southampton or Basingstoke (probably only a few occasional holidays/day trips (post COVID)) so its basically a non issue.

Leamington has a pretty decent student market, given that a large number of Warwick University students live there

 

[swt_passenger]

So what about Coventry, Leamington, Banbury and Oxford to the South? That traffic presumably is forced into two or more changes to get south of Reading?

Getting a feeling a lot of people want to wreck XC in favour of pretty fantastic routings via HS2 that make no sense.

 

[zwk500]

Why does it increase pressure? I stated that the 2 tph EWR service could be extended to Didcot in lieu of (i.e. replacing) the Oxford-Didcot shuttle trains, which would obviously include calls at intermediate stations. It actually reduces pressure on Oxford station itself by eliminating terminating trains. It would only be a short extension and should not significantly increase performance risk; the lines are all double track.

Increases the pressure because the chance of presenting right time at Oxford is reduced due to the need to work through from MK or Bedford. I assumed EWR services would need to run non-stop to make journey times for MML/WCML interchanges acceptable. The elimination of terminating trains would be a bonus, but it also robs the schedules of useful time to recover delays. Joining the service together means you have a very narrow gap at Oxford, rather than the flexibility of separate operations.

 

[London Trains]

Getting a feeling a lot of people want to wreck XC in favour of pretty fantastic routings via HS2 that make no sense.

Not trying to "wreck" XC, but when there's much faster, more comfortable, probably less overcrowded routes that are all electrified, journeys should be pushed onto these instead of onto the slow, overcrowded diesel voyager thats doing 2 jobs (local and long distance journeys) going direct. These paths should instead be used to provide better services with more capacity to the shorter distance travel.

 

[Ianno87]

Increases the pressure because the chance of presenting right time at Oxford is reduced due to the need to work through from MK or Bedford. I assumed EWR services would need to run non-stop to make journey times for MML/WCML interchanges acceptable. The elimination of terminating trains would be a bonus, but it also robs the schedules of useful time to recover delays. Joining the service together means you have a very narrow gap at Oxford, rather than the flexibility of separate operations.

Looking at their infrastructure proposals, looks like East West Rail's big thing is keeping themselves separate from other routes as much as possible for resilience purposes, and probably getting the best timetable patterns for their core service. Random extensions to Didcot would completely contradict this philosophy (as useful as they may be to passengers).

But even doing 2 changes MK-Oxford-Didcot-Bristol/wherever is transformational compared to current rail options.

 

[The Planner]

Coventry to anywhere south of Reading would be much faster via Birmingham Interchange.

Oxford would be one simple change at Reading, not much of an issue.

I dont see Leamington and Banbury having much of a market for services south of Reading to Bournemouth, Southampton or Basingstoke (probably only a few occasional holidays/day trips (post COVID)) so its basically a non issue.

Are you still considering the 10 minutes it will take Cov to International, then at least another 10-15 minutes interchange to the HS2 station?

 

[zwk500]

Looking at their infrastructure proposals, looks like East West Rail's big thing is keeping themselves separate from other routes as much as possible for resilience purposes, and probably getting the best timetable patterns for their core service. Random extensions to Didcot would completely contradict this philosophy (as useful as they may be to passengers).

Thank you for putting my point across in a far more cogent manner!

 

[daodao]

Looking at their infrastructure proposals, looks like East West Rail's big thing is keeping themselves separate from other routes as much as possible for resilience purposes, and probably getting the best timetable patterns for their core service. Random extensions to Didcot would completely contradict this philosophy (as useful as they may be to passengers).

But even doing 2 changes MK-Oxford-Didcot-Bristol/wherever is transformational compared to current rail options.

One change of trains may be acceptable, but more than that will not encourage potential passengers. Extending EWR trains the short distance from Oxford to Didcot in place of the existing diesel shuttle trains has more operational benefits than disadvantages, would be user-friendly to passengers and improves connectivity to what will be a new service (MK/Bedford to Oxford).

 

[Ianno87]

One change of trains may be acceptable, but more than that will not encourage potential passengers. Extending EWR trains the short distance from Oxford to Didcot in place of the existing diesel shuttle trains has more operational benefits than disadvantages, would be user-friendly to passengers and improves connectivity to what will be a new service (MK/Bedford to Oxford).

For "operational benefits" substitute "making the performance of the whole of East West Rail dependent on late running Voyagers through Oxford".

 

[daodao]

For "operational benefits" substitute "making the performance of the whole of East West Rail dependent on late running Voyagers through Oxford".

This does not appear to be a significant problem at present. On weekdays, there is currently an hourly XC service via Oxford (34 trains, including 1 empty stock working). Ignoring a few cancelled trains, of the trains that actually ran, RTT shows that:

On 12/4/21, only 2 XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 3 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 13/4/21, no XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 2 were at least 5 minutes late.
On 14/4/21, only 2 XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 3 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 15/4/21, only 1 XC train was more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 4 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 16/4/21, no XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 2 were more than 5 minutes late.

A late running service on another route will not necessarily impede a train on another service.

 

[Ianno87]

This does not appear to be a significant problem at present. On weekdays, there is a currently hourly XC service via Oxford (34 trains, including 1 empty stock working). Ignoring a few cancelled trains, of the trains that actually ran, RTT shows that:

On 12/4/21, only 2 XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 3 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 13/4/21, no XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 2 were at least 5 minutes late.
On 14/4/21, only 2 XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 3 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 15/4/21, only 1 XC train was more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 4 were more than 5 minutes late.
On 16/4/21, no XC trains were more than 10 minutes late leaving Oxford, most were on time and only 2 were more than 5 minutes late.

A late running service on another route will not necessarily impede a train on another service.

Current performance is really, really not representative of normal, and what can be expected once passengers (and full service) return. In fact, it surprises me the number of poorly performing trains you highlight in the current relatively "easy" operating conditions. Hardly a "right time railway"