East-West Rail (EWR): Oxford-Bletchley construction progress

[edwin_m]

I noticed that the new overbridges between Oxford and Bicester seem to have pretty long spans.
It Surely can’t be passive for four tracking (!), is that just the new standard to leave plenty of space for trackside workers to go under whilst staying decently clear of the track?

There are standards about clearances and also things like making the structure less likely to collapse if hit by a derailed train.

 

[SteveT]

Station Road, Launton
View attachment 96515

Isn't modern civil engineering beautiful? Such style...

How long did it take in the drawing office to produce that excrescence? Two minutes?

 

[zwk500]

Isn't modern civil engineering beautiful? Such style...

How long did it take in the drawing office to produce that excrescence? Two minutes?

Are you willing to stump up the cost of facing materials and the labour required to fit them?

Does it permit modern road and rail traffic to pass safely? Yes
Does it maximise value for the project (i.e. Taxpayer)? Yes.

They did the job asked of them. Doing it quickly would seem to be a good thing, given how long EWR's taken so far.

 

[gingerheid]

Isn't modern civil engineering beautiful? Such style...

How long did it take in the drawing office to produce that excrescence? Two minutes?

It's... a bridge?

Anything else would be seen as wasting money, gold plating, ...

 

[SteveT]

It's... a bridge?

Anything else would be seen as wasting money, gold plating, ...

And a grotesquely ugly one to boot, using similar techniques to the Hardengreen bridge on the Waverley route.

In this day and age of novel and inventive technology, it ought to be possible to produce cheaply without being so brutal. I live near the Midland mainline in Beds and Northants. The recent work to replace overbridges for electrification gave us more examples, with simple and elegant brick arches replaced by lumpen piles of concrete and pale grey brick.

And then there's that palisade fencing that blights the entire railway network...

 

[zwk500]

In this day and age of novel and inventive technology, it ought to be possible to produce cheaply without being so brutal.

Pre-cast concrete is amongst the most cost-efficient building systems in terms of manufacture, construction, installation and maintenace.

I live near the Midland mainline in Beds and Northants. The recent work to replace overbridges for electrification gave us more examples, with simple and elegant brick arches replaced by lumpen piles of concrete and pale grey brick.

An arch bridge could not give the required clearances at the edges that a flat-deck bridge does for little to no increase at the crown. And the fact that the bridges had to be replaced in possessions of the line, making speed of installation critical.
In order to have built an arch bridge at Launton, you would need the abutments to be set much further back, and the crown much higher than the current deck, to allow the full width of the road to be available to lorries. which would require much longer approaches for the railway above as it can't be hump-backed.

And then there's that palisade fencing that blights the entire railway network...

Palisade fencing is only installed where trespass is a concern. The majority of the network has post-and-wire fencing.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm confused by the mod edit to this thread.

The cost issue that has been edited out seems to me to be the ultimate key this this type of issue, without which the conversation becomes pointlessly theoretical - I will bow out the thread.

 

[59CosG95]

Pre-cast concrete is amongst the most cost-efficient building systems in terms of manufacture, construction, installation and maintenace.

An arch bridge could not give the required clearances at the edges that a flat-deck bridge does for little to no increase at the crown. And the fact that the bridges had to be replaced in possessions of the line, making speed of installation critical.
In order to have built an arch bridge at Launton, you would need the abutments to be set much further back, and the crown much higher than the current deck, to allow the full width of the road to be available to lorries. which would require much longer approaches for the railway above as it can't be hump-backed.

Palisade fencing is only installed where trespass is a concern. The majority of the network has post-and-wire fencing.

Additionally, the work along the MML north of Bedford improved the loading gauge clearance from containers/swap bodies, from the paltry W6 (W7 on the Wymington Deviation) to W12. Doubtless these bridges on EWR will be to the same spec, especially as Oxford - Bicester itself is W12 now.

 

[SteveT]

Pre-cast concrete is amongst the most cost-efficient building systems in terms of manufacture, construction, installation and maintenace.

etc. etc.

Thanks for the condescending lecture. Try considering that I understand the need for the raising of overbridges and the practical problems involved. And I wasn't suggesting that the Launton underbridge be arched.

However limited its use might be, unpainted palisade fencing is still an eyesore.

I had no idea the subject of aesthetics was so offensive.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks for the condescending lecture. Try considering that I understand the need for the raising of overbridges and the practical problems involved. And I wasn't suggesting that the Launton underbridge be arched.

However limited its use might be, unpainted palisade fencing is still an eyesore.

I had no idea the subject of aesthetics was so offensive.

And the improved loading gauge point in relation to what was there before? Surely you build something that is completely future proof?

 

[SteveT]

And the improved loading gauge point in relation to what was there before? Surely you build something that is completely future proof?

Yes. And?

 

[Brissle Girl]

...and you complain about “simple and elegant brick arches being replaced by lumpen piles of concrete”, when clearly the former are not appropriate for the larger loading gauges needed.

I would imagine there’s a limit as to how elegant a bridge compliant with the required loading gauge can be, except with possibly a completely disproportionate increase in design and build costs.

 

[SteveT]

...and you complain about “simple and elegant brick arches being replaced by lumpen piles of concrete”, when clearly the former are not appropriate for the larger loading gauges needed.

The piles of concrete didn't have to be so lumpen.

 

[The Planner]

The piles of concrete didn't have to be so lumpen.

Any examples/pictures of what you would have preferred in a design?

 

[SteveT]

Any examples/pictures of what you would have preferred in a design?

No. Just not what they are.

 

[Martin23230]

We're talking about a bridge here on Station Road NE of Launton, correct? So a minor road in the middle of the countryside, no one on the train or driving over is going to see any concrete for more than a second. Exactly how much is worth spending on the aesthetic merits of such a bridge?

 

[The Planner]

No. Just not what they are.

Ok, to surmise then, you don't like them but cannot come up with a better suggestion? Not a convincing argument or debate then.

 

[hwl]

Outside significant locations (world heritage / listed / AONB etc. ) there is zero value in TAG for aesthetics hence quicker cheaper (lower full life cost) easier.

 

[SteveT]

Ok, to surmise then, you don't like them but cannot come up with a better suggestion? Not a convincing argument or debate then.

The pettiness of this is depressing. I would never have imagined that a simple observation on the ugliness of some modern civil engineering could invoke such dismissiveness, even contempt.

Plain, cheap and simple doesn't have to be ugly. Try considering it.

 

[edwin_m]

The blue brick ones on the MML are presumably an attempt to make them look better, as I doubt the bricks serve any structural purpose and they may just be a thin facing layer on concrete instead of actual bricks. As well as the railway safety standards, new bridges have to be built to contain road vehicles and prevent another event like Oxshott or Great Heck (several other near-accidents in recent years too from this source).

 

[SteveT]

Outside significant locations (world heritage / listed / AONB etc. ) there is zero value in TAG for aesthetics hence quicker cheaper (lower full life cost) easier.

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest that if it were in a national park, AONB or even perhaps a conservation area that planners might have their say on appearance.

 

[zwk500]

Plain, cheap and simple doesn't have to be ugly. Try considering it.

Please enlighten us!

 

[swt_passenger]

We're talking about a bridge here on Station Road NE of Launton, correct? So a minor road in the middle of the countryside, no one on the train or driving over is going to see any concrete for more than a second. Exactly how much is worth spending on the aesthetic merits of such a bridge?

I think we’re also seeing views of the Bridge at Station Road Launton well before the road embankments are completed, and because it’s a significantly skewed bridge the abutments are going to be far more visible at the angles photographed, taken together it probably exaggerates how the finished bridge will look in the landscape. Currently available views may not even be possible once the project completes and the redundant roads are removed.

I also expect standards for the side to side slope, the gradients, width, curve visibility etc. of new highway embankments have all been gradually increasing over many years.

As far as I can see the completely new bridges are very similar to those installed on Oxford - Bicester?

 

[SteveT]

The blue brick ones on the MML are presumably an attempt to make them look better...

Only just! They are rather washed-out looking grey rather than the older blue brick.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The pettiness of this is depressing. I would never have imagined that a simple observation on the ugliness of some modern civil engineering could invoke such dismissiveness, even contempt.

Plain, cheap and simple doesn't have to be ugly. Try considering it.

The "pettiness" seems to be that everyone else contributing to the discussion disagrees with you. But you still haven't come up with a concrete (pardon the pun) reason why a minor bridge, seen by virtually no-one, has to be aesthetically appealing, whilst meeting modern crashworthy, loading gauge, and whole life maintenance costs.

 

[SteveT]

Please enlighten us!

Just search 'concrete arch' on Google. Plenty of curved, pre-cast arches there.

It's the plates on the wingwalls (rectangular at Launton, hexagonal on some other examples) that are so jarring to the eye (well, my eye at least!).

The "pettiness" seems to be that everyone else contributing to the discussion disagrees with you. But you still haven't come up with a concrete (pardon the pun) reason why a minor bridge, seen by virtually no-one, has to be aesthetically appealing, whilst meeting modern crashworthy, loading gauge, and whole life maintenance costs.

And given an answer like that, I never could. You've made my point for me.

 

[zwk500]

Just search 'concrete arch' on Google. Plenty of curved, pre-cast arches there.

Thanks for giving us an idea of what you're after. But that arch still runs into the problems of maintaining clearance above the full width of the carriageway/railway.

It's the plates on the wingwalls (rectangular at Launton, hexagonal on some other examples) that are so jarring to the eye (well, my eye at least!).

Perhaps something like Cow Lane Bridge, Reading, would be better to you? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...4!1sJ8MrTuCexPI3sQ5e1rnjug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The brick wingwalls are purely aesthetic, the structure is preformed concrete (although it wasn't panels but a continuous pour in Cow Lane's Case) Video showing bridge as installed. However, they still cost money to procure the bricks, and employ bricklayers to lay them. Who should pay for these costs in this location?

 

[swt_passenger]

Here’s a link (copied from the earlier massive EWR thread) that explains the rationale for the current method of building the abutments. The hollow blocks, (not “plates”), are effectively permanent form-work, with the rebar inside and poured concrete fill. As mentioned in the article, the system allows for factory quality standard components, and started out as a Highways England project.

Digitally enabled modular bridges - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article Build, build, build! – heartening words for construction. Better, greener, faster – the imperatives for the industry. But what remains unspoken is the poor past-performance of the sector. Since the mid-1990s, the productivity of manufacturing has improved by 50 per cent...

www.railengineer.co.uk

 

[SteveT]

Thanks for giving us an idea of what you're after. But that arch still runs into the problems of maintaining clearance above the full width of the carriageway/railway.

Perhaps not the flatter ones (some of the MML bridges were elliptical).

Perhaps something like Cow Lane Bridge, Reading, would be better to you? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...4!1sJ8MrTuCexPI3sQ5e1rnjug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The brick wingwalls are purely aesthetic, the structure is preformed concrete (although it wasn't panels but a continuous pour in Cow Lane's Case) Video showing bridge as installed. However, they still cost money to procure the bricks, and employ bricklayers to lay them. Who should pay for these costs in this location?

A bit better certainly but still a bit stark.
Would a bit of brick dressing really add that much to the cost?

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps not the flatter ones (some of the MML bridges were elliptical).

Maybe the ones used on the Channel tunnel profile (which were more trapezoidal than arched)

A bit better certainly but still a bit stark.
Would a bit of brick dressing really add that much to the cost?

Depends how much disruption to the road/footway or railway you needed to cause, but materials, labour and scaffolding are rocketing up in price these days.