East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[KingDaveRa]

Is that a rail-connected depot for Greatmoor? I'd assume that'd have to mean rubbish arriving from London again?

 

[edwin_m]

The HS2 depot is likely to be used as a construction railhead with material coming in by train.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that a rail-connected depot for Greatmoor? I'd assume that'd have to mean rubbish arriving from London again?

AIUI HS2 are required to move the waste transfer sidings and handling equipment to the other side of what will be their new tracks. That suggests it has planned future use?

 

[hooverboy]

East West Rail 'Site Visit'
Opportunity to travel from Aylesbury to Bicester, via Claydon.

Buckinghamshire Railway Centre - 10th June 2018

• work-traveller
• 24 Apr 2018
• 1

would be lovely if they'd let the old bubble-car loose on this!

top+tail 20's and a set of mk1's would suffice though.nothing quite like the wind in your hair and smell of fresh country air mixed with diesel.

must say I'm tempted.

 

[KingDaveRa]

AIUI HS2 are required to move the waste transfer sidings and handling equipment to the other side of what will be their new tracks. That suggests it has planned future use?

Just looking at the plans, and that is indeed on the cards. Drawings are all on the government website here (no copy/paste, crown copyright and all that):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/twao-planning-direction-drawings

It seems like a bit of a mess, as it'll be an assortment of sidings for rail to be unloaded onto road, so it can be trundled over a bridge to the EfW plant. That seems needlessly energy intensive, unless they plan to use electric vehicles. Then again, the old waste transfer had a similar arrangement I suppose. It's quite a big development, whatever happens, especially considering the main depot just up the line.

If the locals thought having the EfW plant built was bad, they're going to HATE all these sidings.

 

[DarloRich]

top+tail 20's and a set of mk1's would suffice though.nothing quite like the wind in your hair and smell of fresh country air mixed with diesel.

Missed your chance sadly: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/whats-on/events-calendar/heritage-vehicles-outings#diesel

Vehicles & coaches used; South end Class 20 diesel locomotive 20227, Class 20 diesel locomotive 20142, 4TC coaches (for customers, with LTM Shop set up in Coach C), Class 33 locomotive 33012

 

[CyrusWuff]

would be lovely if they'd let the old bubble-car loose on this!

Sadly not going to happen, as the "Aylesbury Heritage Fleet" is no longer with Chiltern.

In terms of passenger stock: 121020 is now based at the Bodmin & Wenford Railway, and 121034 is in use by Southall-based Locomotive Services Ltd as a route learner.

And for the Departmentals: 960010 (previously L124/55024/121024) aka "The Maroon Saloon" is at the Chinnor & Princes Risborough Railway alongside the trailer vehicle (51375) from 960301 (water jetter, previously 117308). The other two vehicles from the jetter are at Long Marston.

 

[The Planner]

It seems like a bit of a mess, as it'll be an assortment of sidings for rail to be unloaded onto road, so it can be trundled over a bridge to the EfW plant. That seems needlessly energy intensive, unless they plan to use electric vehicles. Then again, the old waste transfer had a similar arrangement I suppose. It's quite a big development, whatever happens, especially considering the main depot just up the line.

They have to unload it to road, HS2 is between the new sidings and the power plant. HS2 ploughs through the current ones.

If the locals thought having the EfW plant built was bad, they're going to HATE all these sidings.

Not sure why, it moves them well away from all the housing at Calvert.

 

[KingDaveRa]

Not sure why, it moves them well away from all the housing at Calvert.

I was thinking in a broader sense. Look at the plans, and there's the new depot one site, and the new sidings on the other. Greatmoor EfW is a mere shed by comparison! There was a lot of noise from the people in Calvert and surrounding villages when the EfW was planned, so I can't see this being much different.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

There seems to be little enthusiasm for HS2 in that part of Buckinghamshire anyway. There are several posters on windows declaring opposition to the project.

 

[KingDaveRa]

There seems to be little enthusiasm for HS2 in that part of Buckinghamshire anyway. There are several posters on windows declaring opposition to the project.

An understatement if ever there was one! There's numerous roadside signs decrying it, including a few on massive scaffolds along main roads, the route was marked out where it crossed main roads, there's posters in windows, car stickers, it's everywhere. The local MP, David Liddington, being a party man and recent high-flyer won't denounce it as it has direct government support. He just gives mealy-mouthed responses in the local press any time it comes up and he's asked to comment, which has upset the locals somewhat too. It's a massive local issue, there's no two ways about it.

I still think they should build a station in Aylesbury.

 

[edwin_m]

They can't build a station in Aylesbury as it will tunnel underneath.

It is perhaps understandable that people affected by the scheme but not benefitting from a station will be unhappy about it, though some are no doubt influenced by the prospect of getting more compensation if they make a fuss and others are probably needlessly worried by some of the stuff put out by the "antis".

But for operational reasons a station is impossible unless a large proportion of trains stop there (otherwise each stopping train reduces by one the number of trains that can use the route, which would reduce services for places further north). HS2 is intentionally run through the least populated areas so any station would have little direct catchment and would be mainly for drive-up access, probably just abstracting passengers off other trains and generating more car traffic in the vicinity.

 

[KingDaveRa]

They can't build a station in Aylesbury as it will tunnel underneath.

The tunnels end at Great Missenden. It's embankments and cuttings through the Vale of Aylesbury. From what I recall of the plans there's no tunnels for quite a ways after Missenden.

But yeah, I know all the reasons why they aren't building a station in Aylesbury. They could make it work, but Aylesbury is too well served by Chiltern to need it, so it's not worth doing. However, it seems like a missed opportunity given Aylesbury is a market town, will be on the East-West Rail corridor, AND could be served by the new main road from Oxford to Cambridge (if the council get their way). Throw in HS2, possibly connected with EWR and the possibilities for transport would be amazing. But then because all the aforementioned is happening (the road is pretty certain as it has government funding, just depends on the route), I suppose HS2 is a bit surplus to requirement.

 

[cle]

If there was ever a station, it'd surely be at where HS2 and EWR intersect - a major interchange and railhead/park & ride - with potential for housing and a new town development.

 

[work-traveller]

If there was ever a station, it'd surely be at where HS2 and EWR intersect - a major interchange and railhead/park & ride - with potential for housing and a new town development.

Such a proposal was made by the residents of Steeple Claydon. It's not gained traction with either project, but who knows what will happen in the future!

 

[swt_passenger]

A major HS2 station could only be justified by development on such a massive scale that Bucks CC would never agree to it.

Hasn’t this all been done to death in the “high speed” sub forum before though?

 

[JamesT]

Such a proposal was made by the residents of Steeple Claydon. It's not gained traction with either project, but who knows what will happen in the future!

The great unknowable is would you get sufficient volumes of people changing between the two to make it worth the penalty of slowing down the high speed trains for a stop and adding additional infrastructure to allow the non-stoppers to go past. Personally I think it's unlikely. There are already two lines nearby which will cater for the local traffic going North-South roughly (WCML and Chiltern Line) with potential on WCML at least for increased frequency when HS2 opens.

 

[muddythefish]

The tunnels end at Great Missenden. It's embankments and cuttings through the Vale of Aylesbury. From what I recall of the plans there's no tunnels for quite a ways after Missenden.

But yeah, I know all the reasons why they aren't building a station in Aylesbury. They could make it work, but Aylesbury is too well served by Chiltern to need it, so it's not worth doing. However, it seems like a missed opportunity given Aylesbury is a market town, will be on the East-West Rail corridor, AND could be served by the new main road from Oxford to Cambridge (if the council get their way). Throw in HS2, possibly connected with EWR and the possibilities for transport would be amazing. But then because all the aforementioned is happening (the road is pretty certain as it has government funding, just depends on the route), I suppose HS2 is a bit surplus to requirement.

No surprise there then

 

[edwin_m]

The tunnels end at Great Missenden. It's embankments and cuttings through the Vale of Aylesbury. From what I recall of the plans there's no tunnels for quite a ways after Missenden.

But yeah, I know all the reasons why they aren't building a station in Aylesbury. They could make it work, but Aylesbury is too well served by Chiltern to need it, so it's not worth doing. However, it seems like a missed opportunity given Aylesbury is a market town, will be on the East-West Rail corridor, AND could be served by the new main road from Oxford to Cambridge (if the council get their way). Throw in HS2, possibly connected with EWR and the possibilities for transport would be amazing. But then because all the aforementioned is happening (the road is pretty certain as it has government funding, just depends on the route), I suppose HS2 is a bit surplus to requirement.

Thanks for pointing out on the lack of tunnel issue - brain fade on my side...

However HS2 goes round the west side of rather than through Aylesbury so any station in the area would interchange only with the Princes Risborough line or with no railway at all. The road access doesn't look great either.

 

[edwin_m]

The great unknowable is would you get sufficient volumes of people changing between the two to make it worth the penalty of slowing down the high speed trains for a stop and adding additional infrastructure to allow the non-stoppers to go past. Personally I think it's unlikely. There are already two lines nearby which will cater for the local traffic going North-South roughly (WCML and Chiltern Line) with potential on WCML at least for increased frequency when HS2 opens.

Agreed. The major settlements on that part of the Oxford-Cambridge corridor are Oxford, Bicester and MK, all of which have frequent trains to both London and Birmingham. Even though the classic lines are slower, they are probably still quicker than travelling off at right angles and changing trains at Calvert.

 

[aylesbury]

Aylesbury is in an awkward situation at the moment ,we are experiencing uncontrolled house building and our road network cannot cope with the traffic.Link roads are proposed but will not be the answer the rail links are adequate at the moment and when the link to MK arrives we will be okay.If we need to travel north via Birmingham we go to Haddenham Parkway and arrive there in under an hour. MK is half an drive away so an HS2 station is not required .I was looking at the plans for the line today the line will be close to the south of Aylesbury and cross the Thame Rd under a bridge ,then it will go across a public golf course and pass over the A41 towards Waddesdon .Works are ongoing at the moment and the line is marked by fences near Waddesdon .In Wendover the line will be in a tunnel alongside the bypass pity we could not have one all the way round Aylesbury .Once its all built I do not think that it will be intrusive bt dring the work its not going to be fun.

 

[D365]

Was it the April 1st issue?

It just doesn't seem practical or cost effective

I’ve attended several EWR talks recently, a new route between MKC and Bedford Midland was never a serious proposal. From what I remember the idea was to scope it out briefly but discount it as uneconomical, in case a minister-type person intends to challenge their preferred plans.

 

[hooverboy]

Agreed. The major settlements on that part of the Oxford-Cambridge corridor are Oxford, Bicester and MK, all of which have frequent trains to both London and Birmingham. Even though the classic lines are slower, they are probably still quicker than travelling off at right angles and changing trains at Calvert.

that's the whole point!. they are well served in north-south directions only!
what about people who live in bedford and work in cambridge/MK?...1 hour by bus,1hr+ by car...by train in theory should be 30 minutes tops.
bedford-bletchley-mk is (1hr -`1hr 10m presently)..should be 35-40 minutes direct

you have to connect the main hubs for commerce+transport...bletchley is not,MK is.

cambridge to oxford about 2 hrs though london,will be about 50% improved by E/W rail.that is a significant saving for those going even further east to norwich/east anglia, or further west to wales/bristol.

 

[JamesT]

that's the whole point!. they are well served in north-south directions only!
what about people who live in bedford and work in cambridge/MK?...1 hour by bus,1hr+ by car...by train in theory should be 30 minutes tops.
bedford-bletchley-mk is (1hr -`1hr 10m presently)..should be 35-40 minutes direct

you have to connect the main hubs for commerce+transport...bletchley is not,MK is.

cambridge to oxford about 2 hrs though london,will be about 50% improved by E/W rail.that is a significant saving for those going even further east to norwich/east anglia, or further west to wales/bristol.

The post you're replying to is concerned with the diversion as to whether E/W rail and HS2 should have an interchange. We're agreeing that these locations are suitably served N/S so a HS2 station wouldn't be necessary. We're not really commenting on whether E/W rail as it stands is necessary or not.

 

[edwin_m]

I’ve attended several EWR talks recently, a new route between MKC and Bedford Midland was never a serious proposal. From what I remember the idea was to scope it out briefly but discount it as uneconomical, in case a minister-type person intends to challenge their preferred plans.

The May Modern Railways has an interview with Rob Brighouse where he raises the question of a new MK-Bedford route again, suggesting it might diverge from the WCML north of MK and join the MML north of Bedford so through trains can call at both existing stations. He said it would depend on WCML capacity issues and also the direction of development of MK (if it started spreading southwards Bletchley might be a better bet).

That has its merits and is certainly preferable to trying to smash through the MK built-up area, but I still can't see it being viable when there's an alternative route that does almost the same thing.

that's the whole point!. they are well served in north-south directions only!
what about people who live in bedford and work in cambridge/MK?...1 hour by bus,1hr+ by car...by train in theory should be 30 minutes tops.
bedford-bletchley-mk is (1hr -`1hr 10m presently)..should be 35-40 minutes direct

you have to connect the main hubs for commerce+transport...bletchley is not,MK is.

cambridge to oxford about 2 hrs though london,will be about 50% improved by E/W rail.that is a significant saving for those going even further east to norwich/east anglia, or further west to wales/bristol.

The post you're replying to is concerned with the diversion as to whether E/W rail and HS2 should have an interchange. We're agreeing that these locations are suitably served N/S so a HS2 station wouldn't be necessary. We're not really commenting on whether E/W rail as it stands is necessary or not.

Indeed, I was commenting on the (lack of) need for a station on HS2. I agree that EWR has a lot of merits for east-west travel.

 

[DarloRich]

I’ve attended several EWR talks recently, a new route between MKC and Bedford Midland was never a serious proposal. From what I remember the idea was to scope it out briefly but discount it as uneconomical, in case a minister-type person intends to challenge their preferred plans.

I suspect you and I might understand how these things work better than many posters!

 

[A0wen]

The May Modern Railways has an interview with Rob Brighouse where he raises the question of a new MK-Bedford route again, suggesting it might diverge from the WCML north of MK and join the MML north of Bedford so through trains can call at both existing stations. He said it would depend on WCML capacity issues and also the direction of development of MK (if it started spreading southwards Bletchley might be a better bet).

That has its merits and is certainly preferable to trying to smash through the MK built-up area, but I still can't see it being viable when there's an alternative route that does almost the same thing.

There is precisely no sensible route out and across to the MML between MK and Northampton as even the most cursory look at a map shows.

The options (without demolishing a chunk of MK) are -

- The old Newport Pagnell line. Not a chance, ends at a fully developed area in Newport. Add in it was only ever a single line so the formation which has been preserved isn't big enough to make it twin track.

- Diverge between Wolverton and Hanslope - That is flood plain and floods quite regularly. The logical line from there would also miss Olney - which is the only significant place in the area, so it would be a line serving nowhere in between.

- Between Castlethorpe and Roade you'd be heading a fair way north to cut across which impacts on WCML capacity, again, there's nowhere of significance en-route.

MK future development is unlikely to be north for two reasons, 1 - the flood plain mentioned above and 2 - the fact that once you reach Stony Stratford you're over the county border into Northants.

The more likely development is on the south side from Bletchley towards the M1 - coincidentally the route of the existing Marston Vale line.

 

[DarloRich]

The more likely development is on the south side from Bletchley towards the M1 - coincidentally the route of the existing Marston Vale line.

that is exactly where all the housing is planned to go. Stweartby will grow massively if the plans ever come off.

The next phase of development in MK is in the area between the canal/river Ouzel, A4146 and Watling street at Fenny Stratford. The prelims are starting now

 

[HowardGWR]

Isn't Bletchley essentially 'MK South Parkway, for East / West purposes? Given a decent frequent shuttle bus to central and other parts of MK, would that not do for MK?
Where would this new southern E/W non stop line to Bedford go, exactly, crayons invited? Do either of you have a feeling for that?

 

[itfcfan]

Isn't Bletchley essentially 'MK South Parkway, for East / West purposes? Given a decent frequent shuttle bus to central and other parts of MK, would that not do for MK?
Where would this new southern E/W non stop line to Bedford go, exactly, crayons invited? Do either of you have a feeling for that?

Clearly a new line would involve a substantial cost. In terms of benefits, apart from direct access to central MK (for inbound journeys for shopping / centrally located jobs), the main benefit would be direct interchange to "intercity" services along the west coast to Manchester / Birmingham / Liverpool / Glasgow / etc. For anyone coming across from Oxford / Bicester / Aylesbury / Bedford, being able to change directly onto these services would make these journeys much more likely to be completed by rail (a double change at Bletchley + Milton Keynes central is far less likely to be used). Having said that, the likelihood of a new line being built closely parallel to the existing Bedford - Bletchley line seems to be very low (and closing the existing Bedford - Bletchley line in favour of a new line would be very difficult). It's puzzling that someone connected to EW Rail appears to be discussing this option?!