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ECML Closure - How can we prevent other routes becoming overwhelmed.

Failed Unit

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We probably have had a number of threads, but is there anything we can do to stop some of the minor routes becoming overwhelmed when the ECML is closed.

Looking at some big flows - this was the best route offer.

Edinburgh - London, via West Coast various ways
Newcastle - London, Train to Peterborough, Train to Cambridge (3 car), Train to London Liverpool Street
Leeds - London, Train to Derby (XC) and Train to London (MML)
Grantham & Newark are routing via Nottingham

Clearly other options are avialable, but I put in the booking engine "avoid Liecester" then I still couldn't get the bus links up, but when we have train options then people will avoid the bus because the A1 isn't predictable.

Just wondering if there is anything the industry could make this better (which is still going to cause issues with other operators).

I don't think the MML is phyiscally connected to the Eurostar platfroms, but even if it was pathing LNER trains into St Pancras with Thameslink and MLL probably wouldn't work. Likewise, I suspect terminating LNER at Bedford would probably not be practical in terms of training up knowledge.

However would running into Cambridge help (as I understand LNER already have knowledge and stock clearance.) - I know greater anglia may not have capacity on the Cambridge - Liverpool Street route, but interested if people view this is a posibility to help out.

Not sure if the splitting engines would suggest Newcastle - Carlisle - London.

I know we don't want this, but I suspect the other solution is remove the open fare route validity from MML.
 
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I suspect the other solution is remove the open fare
...as LNER are trialling :( If the only fare valid via Leicester were Anytime, that would "encourage" people to use the bus to Bedford which is what LNER are intending (according to their summary, I've not checked booking engines).
 

Magdalia

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However would running into Cambridge help (as I understand LNER already have knowledge and stock clearance.) - I know greater anglia may not have capacity on the Cambridge - Liverpool Street route, but interested if people view this is a posibility to help out.
More capacity can be provided on West Anglia if all Cambridge North-Liverpool Street trains are 2*720.

In the past the Stratford-Stortford trains have also been extended to Cambridge, and vice versa, to provide more capacity. I think this has not been done since class 317/379 finished.

The main problem at Cambridge would be platform capacity for reversing ECML trains: when diverting, if all the through platforms are occupied, then ECML trains can use the through road.
 

yorkie

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I know we don't want this, but I suspect the other solution is remove the open fare route validity from MML.
For many origin/destination pairs it will be valid under the shortest route rule. In any case, people can - by your own admission - use a combination of tickets anyway.

LNER are very keen for people to book "direct" and they provide their website with plenty of free adverting space on their trains and at stations, this is what it suggests for 1800 tonight, for King's Cross (KGX) to York:

1708437428210.png

Itinerary 1:
1832 St Pancras - Sheffield
2056 Sheffield - Doncaster
2128 Doncaster - York
NO FARES

Itinerary 2:
1902 St Pancras - Derby
2045 Derby - Leeds
2241 Leeds - York
£265.50

Is their intention to put people off travelling? Surely no-one is going to pay £265.50 for that journey, apart from a few people on business.

Savvy passengers won't be booking direct through LNER; they'll be booking with us!

We come up with various itineraries at much lower prices via Peterborough, as well as via Sheffield for anyone who is prepared to pay more to avoid the bus:

1708438554708.png
As you can see, the results between LNER's site and ours couldn't be more stark.


A quick win would be for LNER to switch their website to the same journey planner provider that is used by Trainsplit, which powers the forum's site, i.e. FastJP.

However I don't think train companies want to offer cheaper, but slower routes; their websites are all designed to push people onto the fastest route.

The bus via Peterborough is particularly slow because the connections aren't always great, e.g.


1915 London St Pancras - Bedford (arrive 1955)
20 min wait
2015 Bedford - Peterborough (arrive 2135, i.e. plenty of slack in the schedule)
18 min wait
2153 Peterborough - York (arrive 2309)

It is a much shorter journey time to take the 2002 from St Pancras.

I got cheap tickets on EMR+Northern (much cheaper than LNER wanted) in the rail sale for my journey couple of days ago; I was unable to take the booked service due to the chaos, but LNER refused to allow me to take the Corby train, followed by what would have been an empty bus from Bedford, and an empty train from Peterborough.

I had previously caught a train from Doncaster to York a week before that, and the train was absolutely dead; I was one of only 3 people in my coach!

I doubt LNER will take any of this on board, but I'd like to be proven wrong!
 
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bib

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For Leeds - London, is Leeds-Tamworth-London an option? I think the LNW 350s normally run as 8-cars
 

Iskra

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Didn’t WCRC run out of Liverpool Street relatively recently? I know it would take longer and there’s possible carriage issues at this exact moment, but 2/3 railtour-length trains shuttling between Liverpool Street and Peterborough or Doncaster depending on where the block is, could be just enough to make the MML cope.

Alternatively, LNER to train on a diversionary route to Liverpool Street.

Clearly, customers who have paid for a train, want to travel on a train as we see time and time again that buses get avoided, so it’s about time replacement rail services were provided where disruption is long-known about in advance.
 

Failed Unit

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That is interesting - didn't get any options where the bus was quicker when I was having a play around earlier. But a lot where it was only about 10 minutes difference. which as we know heading South could be quicker as you don't need to wait for your booked train from Bedford.

For Leeds - London, is Leeds-Tamworth-London an option? I think the LNW 350s normally run as 8-cars
I think the problem is still the lack of capacity on XC.
 

mike57

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As I noted in another response we travelled to Peterborough on Saturday. South of Doncaster the LNER service was deserted, 6 people in our carriage, and looking at the flows from home (Bempton, just North of Bridlington for those who dont know it) towards Doncaster I would suggest most people were heading for Sheffield. On our return late afternoon on an even more deserted service there were a lot boarding the LNER service at Doncaster. The Bedford buses at Peterborough were not very busy. On a normal Saturday Doncaster-Peterborough-London trains will be full to capacity.

It is also interesting that Saturdays trip was booked at quite short notice, and I was surprised to find reasonably priced advance ticket still available (Full trip was Bempton - Peterborough). That was born out by the empty trains south of Doncaster.

Passengers do not like replacement buses/coaches, and if they have to travel will probably fathom out alternative routes. Ultimately people willl change plans or not travel if its a discretionary journey, there is no way you can make passengers 'like' bus replacements, its about time that ToCs were encouraged to maintain route knowledge for diversions instead of being encouraged to do the opposite, and try and avoid bus replacements where diversions exist, particularly for planned work but thats a whole different issue.

Hull Trains ran a couple of services into St Pancras, and when they run these services they dont stop at Doncaster, obviously from a fear of being overwhelmed.

I also thought there were plans for LNER to run into Liverpool Street via Cambridge.
 

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One thing I think would have helped at St Pancras was actually doing some planning in terms of how to handle the high passenger numbers, e.g. separate queues for those with reservations and those without. It's not like the railway doesn't know how to do this kind of thing, it is done at football matches and similar.

What would also have helped would be LNER running their RRBs from somewhere on the Tube (e.g. Stanmore) rather than Bedford. The Tube has plenty of capacity. That wouldn't have stopped people going via Sheffield but would have avoided EMR services getting clogged up between St P and Bedford.
 

jfollows

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For Leeds - London, is Leeds-Tamworth-London an option? I think the LNW 350s normally run as 8-cars
Not a valid route unless there’s an “easement”, no.
Derby-London is valid via Tamworth, so a split at Derby would allow it.
Of course, if you were lucky enough to have a return ticket for a day when the ECML was not closed, you’d still have to travel via Derby so not necessarily ideal.
 
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mike57

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What would also have helped would be LNER running their RRBs from somewhere on the Tube (e.g. Stanmore) rather than Bedford.
I think the issue would be people with luggage. A lot of people travelling by train dont travel 'light', thats one of the attractions over flying for longer journeys. A deep level tube train would struggle. The MML platforms at St Pancras just cannot handle the flow from the ECML as well as the normal MML service.

Could Liverpool street handle a 10 coach 80x? Could the route to/via Cambridge handle an extra 2 trains per hour? Would the answer be to hire in stock to provide a Peterborough - Liverpool St shuttle, diesel hauled. Hull trains had two units sat idle in Hull over the weekend, I saw them Saturday.

I suspect a lot of the problems are due to the disjointed nature of our railways, its not that it cant be done, its just that no one want to pay for it, and the DfT are happy to go cheap, end result issues we saw this weekend, but the cynic in me says politicians while prepared to pay lip service will not provide the funds to allow a more sensible approach to major works, and providing buses is the cheap option.
 

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I suspect a lot of the problems are due to the disjointed nature of our railways, its not that it cant be done, its just that no one want to pay for it, and the DfT are happy to go cheap, end result issues we saw this weekend, but the cynic in me says politicians while prepared to pay lip service will not provide the funds to allow a more sensible approach to major works, and providing buses is the cheap option.

This is very true. For instance in BR days they'd probably divert MML IC services over the Marston Vale and into Euston if the southern MML needed closure, for instance. Though it was easier when frequencies were lower.

I note that today EMR have set the compulsory reservation flag on the Sheffields - as most LNER passengers don't use walk-ups I wonder if this may have solved the problem of overcrowding by just turning people away? The flag was not set on Sunday when the most visible debacle was going on, nor was it yesterday.

Really there could do with being a way to push this demand onto Thameslink to Bedford which could at most times of day handle a near doubling of loads. Maybe the way to do it would be to run the RRBs from Flitwick instead of Bedford?
 
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Fermiboson

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Hull Trains are running via MML to Doncaster (with a very weird stopping pattern, calling at Kettering but neither Leicester nor Sheffield). Any reason why this cannot be done for more ECML services?
 

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This is very true. For instance in BR days they'd probably divert MML IC services over the Marston Vale and into Euston if the southern MML needed closure, for instance. Though it was easier when frequencies were lower.

I note that today EMR have set the compulsory reservation flag on the Sheffields - as most LNER passengers don't use walk-ups I wonder if this may have solved the problem of overcrowding by just turning people away? The flag was not set on Sunday when the most visible debacle was going on, nor was it yesterday.
It was easier in the old days, if you take the London - Leeds flow as both the MML and EMCL were HST operated the solution was extend the Sheffield service into Leeds (using some of the EMCL stock). I have also seen photo's of WCML services in St Pancras after getting dragged from Nuneaton.

I don't think the RRB going from a tube station makes much difference, the Bedford Thameslink services can absorb the load. I suspect the Kettering class 360 operated services can as well (are EMR allowed to operated them as 12 car?).

The closer ECML stations would rather drive to Thameslink then use the RRB, but I noticed the buses to St Albans from Welwyn Garden City were busier then the ones that were going to Potters Bar.
 

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I don't think the RRB going from a tube station makes much difference, the Bedford Thameslink services can absorb the load.

They can, but the planners aren't finding Thameslink journeys as they are slower. Though you may be right that the 360s could sort of cope.

If you just use a planner for Edinburgh it gives you a WCML route, for Leeds I guess it gives you via Sheffield.
 

swt_passenger

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Hull Trains are running via MML to Doncaster (with a very weird stopping pattern, calling at Kettering but neither Leicester nor Sheffield). Any reason why this cannot be done for more ECML services?
I think it’s because it’s only Hull Trains that ever applied for diversionary track access rights, I’m sure that was the previous explanation.
 

mike57

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Hull Trains are running via MML to Doncaster (with a very weird stopping pattern, calling at Kettering but neither Leicester nor Sheffield). Any reason why this cannot be done for more ECML services?
I dont think they go through Sheffield, taking the 'Old road' to Chesterfield, and then the Erewash Valley I think. They are also clear that they are not calling at Doncaster for passengers, although they may need to stop for staff purposes. I assume they have route conductors, and these must have to be picked up and set down. Its also interesting that as an OA operator they think its worth their while to run the diversionary service. Passengers from York could change at Selby however, but its only two trains a day.
 

Clarence Yard

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I think it’s because it’s only Hull Trains that ever applied for diversionary track access rights, I’m sure that was the previous explanation.

There is no such thing in the TAA. Schedule 2 allows all TOCs to use any reasonable diversionary route, subject to route clearance for the stock involved.

When Hull Trains first started you had then to specify an alternative terminus, which was then Liverpool Street. But the use of the West Anglia route, even then, was such that you couldn’t usually get a path.

St. Pancras is limited in how many trains it can accommodate so it really isn’t a viable option for LNER. The days when there was plenty of space at London termini on a Sunday have long gone. Platform length for some terminal platforms is also an issue if you are considering diversions.

Hull Trains doesn’t get Schedule 4 for type 1 and 2 possessions (the vast majority of them) so it is usually worth while for them to run some kind of service.
 

6Gman

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Given the limits of route capacity, route knowledge and supplies of rolling stock isn't the only realistic option a big poster* which says:

On Sunday xxx xxx extensive engineering work on the East Coast Main Line means trains on other routes are likely to be very busy.

Trains on the following routes will therefore be strictly Reservations Only. If you do not have an appropriate reservation you will be refused travel.



* Posters, press adverts, online, booking sites etc. etc.
 

yorkie

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...as LNER are trialling :( If the only fare valid via Leicester were Anytime, that would "encourage" people to use the bus to Bedford which is what LNER are intending (according to their summary, I've not checked booking engines).
LNER's website isn't offering much in the way of itineraries via Peterborough, as it's a slower journey.

We are, and at much cheaper prices. However LNER get free advertising and are able to cross subsidise their retail side. We can't compete with that, so most people don't know they can get a cheap fare and be on quiet trains if theu go against what LNER are telling them to do, i.e. book with LNER.
Given the limits of route capacity, route knowledge and supplies of rolling stock isn't the only realistic option a big poster* which says:

On Sunday xxx xxx extensive engineering work on the East Coast Main Line means trains on other routes are likely to be very busy.

Trains on the following routes will therefore be strictly Reservations Only. If you do not have an appropriate reservation you will be refused travel.



* Posters, press adverts, online, booking sites etc. etc.
How would you possibly enforce that? A member of staff at every door?

Would you expect people who you would be turning away to be happy to book hotels at London prices?

There is no such thing in the TAA. Schedule 2 allows all TOCs to use any reasonable diversionary route, subject to route clearance for the stock involved.

When Hull Trains first started you had then to specify an alternative terminus, which was then Liverpool Street. But the use of the West Anglia route, even then, was such that you couldn’t usually get a path.

St. Pancras is limited in how many trains it can accommodate so it really isn’t a viable option for LNER. The days when there was plenty of space at London termini on a Sunday have long gone. Platform length for some terminal platforms is also an issue if you are considering diversions.

Hull Trains doesn’t get Schedule 4 for type 1 and 2 possessions (the vast majority of them) so it is usually worth while for them to run some kind of service.
It would be theoretically possible to implement an emergency timetable with 10/9 car trains instead of the current fiasco of tiny 5 car trains and saying there is no more capacity. But it would have been a lot more work, and in today's fragmented siloed railway, it's firmly in the 'too difficult' category.
 

6Gman

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How would you possibly enforce that? A member of staff at every door?

Would you expect people who you would be turning away to be happy to book hotels at London prices?
In the same way compulsory reservations are normally enforced.

And if people choose to ignore the compulsory reservations and find themselves unable to travel I expect they would be unhappy.

It would be theoretically possible to implement an emergency timetable with 10/9 car trains instead of the current fiasco of tiny 5 car trains and saying there is no more capacity. But it would have been a lot more work, and in today's fragmented siloed railway, it's firmly in the 'too difficult' category.
If it was for long-planned engineering work it would not need to be an emergency timetable.
 

yorkie

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In the same way compulsory reservations are normally enforced.
Which means they wouldn't be enforced at all.
And if people choose to ignore the compulsory reservations and find themselves unable to travel I expect they would be unhappy.
I'm glad you agree your proposal would be very unpopular
If it was for long-planned engineering work it would not need to be an emergency timetable.
OK; "special" then, or whatever word of your choosing.

...as LNER are trialling :( If the only fare valid via Leicester were Anytime, that would "encourage" people to use the bus to Bedford which is what LNER are intending (according to their summary, I've not checked booking engines).
The LNER booking engine offers the fastest itineraries, which is generally via Leicester.

They could use the same supplier (FastJP) that Trainsplit, who provide the forum's booking site uses, if they ever want to offer slower itineraries. But, in general, my understanding is that TOCs only want to offer the fastest itineraries, even if it reduces their revenue and causes overcrowding, as I assume they would switch supplier if they didn't, given they all work this way and have done for as long as they've existed.

Maybe I am wrong, and they will fundamentally change how their website works in future, but there is no sign of any TOCs ever wanting to do this, even though it could benefit them.

Didn’t WCRC run out of Liverpool Street relatively recently? I know it would take longer and there’s possible carriage issues at this exact moment, but 2/3 railtour-length trains shuttling between Liverpool Street and Peterborough or Doncaster depending on where the block is, could be just enough to make the MML cope.

Alternatively, LNER to train on a diversionary route to Liverpool Street.

Clearly, customers who have paid for a train, want to travel on a train as we see time and time again that buses get avoided, so it’s about time replacement rail services were provided where disruption is long-known about in advance.
Yes they could have run shuttles from Peterborough to Liverpool Street, but it only ran last time because they had to, due to some NR commitment. It's firmly in the 'too difficult' pile to be a regular thing, as TOCs are incentivised to be siloed from each other and not act in the best interest of customers.

As I noted in another response we travelled to Peterborough on Saturday. South of Doncaster the LNER service was deserted, 6 people in our carriage, and looking at the flows from home (Bempton, just North of Bridlington for those who dont know it) towards Doncaster I would suggest most people were heading for Sheffield. On our return late afternoon on an even more deserted service there were a lot boarding the LNER service at Doncaster. The Bedford buses at Peterborough were not very busy. On a normal Saturday Doncaster-Peterborough-London trains will be full to capacity.

It is also interesting that Saturdays trip was booked at quite short notice, and I was surprised to find reasonably priced advance ticket still available (Full trip was Bempton - Peterborough). That was born out by the empty trains south of Doncaster.
Yes the LNER trains are absolutely dead as you say. I observed this myself. Hardly anyone was on the train between Doncaster and York, which I've never witnessed before.

LNER's booking site won't offer the slower itineraries (even if the slower itinerary is one fifth of the price and departs 1 min earlier and arrives 2 min later, such as the itinerary we offer) and therefore are pushing customers onto EMR.

I suspect the handful of passengers who actually travel from London to Doncaster & beyond via the bus are booking through sites such as Trainsplit; those who follow LNER's advertising and book "direct" ended up in an extremely long queue to travel on EMR. You couldn't make this up if you tried!

LNER are so busy trying to deter people booking through us, but they should be grateful that sites such as ours actually put a few passengers on their near-empty services!
Passengers do not like replacement buses/coaches, and if they have to travel will probably fathom out alternative routes. Ultimately people willl change plans or not travel if its a discretionary journey, there is no way you can make passengers 'like' bus replacements, its about time that ToCs were encouraged to maintain route knowledge for diversions instead of being encouraged to do the opposite, and try and avoid bus replacements where diversions exist, particularly for planned work but thats a whole different issue.
True, but I do believe people would have booked the bus itinerary if they were offered cheap fares, such as what our website offers.

I also thought there were plans for LNER to run into Liverpool Street via Cambridge.
I think this is in the 'too difficult' pile; the problem then becomes someone else's, so is not considered a concern. If people are put off by rail then they won't be too bothered as they cannot provide anywhere near enough capacity to cater for everyone who wants to travel, so putting people off is simply part of what they do.
 
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Bald Rick

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Didn’t WCRC run out of Liverpool Street relatively recently? I know it would take longer and there’s possible carriage issues at this exact moment, but 2/3 railtour-length trains shuttling between Liverpool Street and Peterborough or Doncaster depending on where the block is, could be just enough to make the MML cope.

That was paid for by NR (at great expense), because due to a planing error both the WCML and ECML had engineering work concurrently, and there were no direct London - Scotland services. The Liv St to Peterboro services were two each way, and my colleagues on board reported that a high proportion of the clientele had a prediction for anoraks.


One thing I think would have helped at St Pancras was actually doing some planning in terms of how to handle the high passenger numbers, e.g. separate queues for those with reservations and those without.

There are seperate queues for the different service destinations, 1 each for Sheffield, Notts and Corby. was working very well in the evening peak today when I saw it, even with some minor disruption and late boarding. The trains were busy but not overcrowded.
 

YorksLad12

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For many origin/destination pairs it will be valid under the shortest route rule. In any case, people can - by your own admission - use a combination of tickets anyway.

LNER are very keen for people to book "direct" and they provide their website with plenty of free adverting space on their trains and at stations, this is what it suggests for 1800 tonight, for King's Cross (KGX) to York:

View attachment 152793

Itinerary 1:
1832 St Pancras - Sheffield
2056 Sheffield - Doncaster
2128 Doncaster - York
NO FARES

Itinerary 2:
1902 St Pancras - Derby
2045 Derby - Leeds
2241 Leeds - York
£265.50

Is their intention to put people off travelling? Surely no-one is going to pay £265.50 for that journey, apart from a few people on business.

Savvy passengers won't be booking direct through LNER; they'll be booking with us!

We come up with various itineraries at much lower prices via Peterborough, as well as via Sheffield for anyone who is prepared to pay more to avoid the bus:

View attachment 152801
As you can see, the results between LNER's site and ours couldn't be more stark.
Perhaps I'm mis-reading, but your first example is for First Class travel (it says [1st] next to the price), while your second example is Standard.

As I noted in another response we travelled to Peterborough on Saturday. South of Doncaster the LNER service was deserted, 6 people in our carriage, and looking at the flows from home (Bempton, just North of Bridlington for those who dont know it) towards Doncaster I would suggest most people were heading for Sheffield. On our return late afternoon on an even more deserted service there were a lot boarding the LNER service at Doncaster. The Bedford buses at Peterborough were not very busy. On a normal Saturday Doncaster-Peterborough-London trains will be full to capacity.
Because they all preferred to cram into the loos on a 4-car XC service from Leeds to Sheffield. I'd have taken the replacement coach, and I hate taking replacement coaches. Then Thameslink to London (which start at Bedford, so no fighting for space with the people travelling from Sheffield, probably still in the loos). The railway isn't perfect; people, even less so.
 

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Perhaps I'm mis-reading, but your first example is for First Class travel (it says [1st] next to the price), while your second example is Standard.
The search was not for first class, but that's all LNER's site was offering for that itinerary. The previous itinerary was offering no fares whatsoever.

If any of the journey was not available for a standard ticket, the LNER site will simply offer first. However, our website will mix and match to get around that.


Because they all preferred to cram into the loos on a 4-car XC service from Leeds to Sheffield. I'd have taken the replacement coach, and I hate taking replacement coaches.
Then you'd be either booking through us (or one of the other Train split-powered sites), or planning an itinerary manually; good work! However, I suspect most LNER customers do what LNER's prominent adverts tell them to do, and book through LNER.

One thing I think would have helped at St Pancras was actually doing some planning in terms of how to handle the high passenger numbers, e.g. separate queues for those with reservations and those without.
EMR suspended reservations on many trains, but not all; their view was that reservations counted for nothing when it came to the queue.

Consequently, on my train (not my booked service), most of the passengers appeared to be for earlier trains.

Sadly, I don't expect LNER or EMR to learn from anything that is being posted in this thread, though I would absolutely like to be proven wrong. However, based on previous experiences of them not listening, I just can't see it...
 

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There are seperate queues for the different service destinations, 1 each for Sheffield, Notts and Corby. was working very well in the evening peak today when I saw it, even with some minor disruption and late boarding. The trains were busy but not overcrowded.

It appears they've set the compulsory reservations flag for today on all the Meridian operated services, which has probably resulted in a lot of people being told "sold out, go away". That has probably reined it in a bit.
 

yorksrob

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A friend ended up travelling back from Wakefield to London on Sunday and was routed via Sheffield.

The 2 carriage 158's between Leeds and Sheffield were struggling to squeeze everyone on.

If only they had a couple of HST's to extend to Leeds !
 

yorkie

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No, by checking reservations along with tickets at the barriers.
What barriers? Most stations are ungated!

As for St Pancras, you have one gateline for all EMR platforms! Not only that, but at the moments when they released the queues, they had no choice but to allow everyone through unchecked, when I was last there.

Are there any stations served by EMR where a specific gateline only gives you access to just one platform? Without that, your idea could easily be circumvented.

Are you a regular user of this route and have you travelled on the line during the ECML block?
 

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I think anecdotally setting the compulsory reservation flag which they did yesterday on all EMR IC services (i.e. not selling walk up tickets with the false expectation that it was going to be nice and quiet) has made a difference. Like the use of pick up/set down only you don't necessarily have to bother enforcing it, you just need most people to behave, and generally most people will do what they're told (by the journey planner in this case).

When you saw a train from London arrive at MKC which had that stop unadvertised you'd always see maybe 5-10 hardy commuters getting off, but the majority just went along with it. (A normal peak arrival from Euston typically disgorges 500+ into MKC by comparison).

In short most people don't know what we know on here. Most people see "reservations mandatory" and either think they won't be allowed on without one or they'll get a big "fine" for doing so. After all the railway likes asking for big money for other minor stuff, so it's rational to think they would for this too, even though in fact they don't.
 

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