Edinburgh Park to Falkirk Stations Permitted Route

[Butts]

Can anyone advise me is Edinburgh Park to Falkirk Grahamston or High via Haymarket a permitted route - and the reverse as well please.

During the current disruption I am being directed this way and just wondered if it is "legal"

 

[me123]

It seems unlikely. Edinburgh Park isn't a member of the "Edinburgh Group", so you'd be doubling back which is not permitted. I can't find an easement that says otherwise, so it isn't permitted as far as I can see.

Of course, if Scotrail are instructing you to do so you'll be fine. But in normal service it's technically not permitted.

 

[Failed Unit]

No. but you are always instructed to go that way in times of disruption. I always found pros and cons. Rarely quicker as you normally ended up on the next stopping train anyway. But at least you can physically get on.

 

[najaB]

But in normal service it's technically not permitted.

NRE offers it on a single ticket for a random day next week, so it looks like it would be okay.

 

[me123]

^Interesting, but I certainly couldn't find any particular rules or easements that would allow this move.

 

[Butts]

Interesting, I'm sure even prior to the disruption it has been given as an option when banging in Edinburgh Park to FKG.

How are you supposed to get from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High without going into Haymarket - change at Linlithgow?

Remember it is a Falkirk Stations to Edinburgh Park ticket.

 

[PaulLothian]

How are you supposed to get from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High without going into Haymarket - change at Linlithgow?

A lot of people do that each day, I notice...

 

[me123]

Interesting, I'm sure even prior to the disruption it has been given as an option when banging in Edinburgh Park to FKG.

How are you supposed to get from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High without going into Haymarket - change at Linlithgow?

Remember it is a Falkirk Stations to Edinburgh Park ticket.

Why not? That's the obvious way to do the journey. Either that or go to Grahamston and walk which may be quicker for some people.

 

[Butts]

A lot of people do that each day, I notice...

Well according to Scotrails Website it gives you the option to go via Haymarket.

Look at Monday 7th November for example for travelling from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High :

0614 EDP to HYM

0634 HYM to FKK

If they run the service how can it not be a permitted route if that is the way they are advising you to travel ?
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Why not? That's the obvious way to do the journey. Either that or go to Grahamston and walk which may be quicker for some people.

Have you ever walked from FKG to FKK it's all uphill

 

[me123]

Well according to Scotrails Website it gives you the option to go via Haymarket.

Look at Monday 7th November for example for travelling from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High :

0614 EDP to HYM

0634 HYM to FKK

If they run the service how can it not be a permitted route if that is the way they are advising you to travel ?
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Have you ever walked from FKG to FKK it's all uphill

If they're advising you to travel that way, then I think you'll be absolutely fine. It's just I can't see anything official in the routeing guide that says you can do this, but with the journey planner suggesting you go that way then it's hard for anyone to argue with.

As for the walk - yes I have, and it's good exercise Of course, there will be people for whom both stations are equally convenient - those are the people I'm suggesting might want to walk.

 

[A Challenge]

Well according to Scotrails Website it gives you the option to go via Haymarket.

Look at Monday 7th November for example for travelling from Edinburgh Park to Falkirk High :

0614 EDP to HYM

0634 HYM to FKK

If they run the service how can it not be a permitted route if that is the way they are advising you to travel ?
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Have you ever walked from FKG to FKK it's all uphill

Falkirk Grahamston to Falkirk HIGH, and you expect otherwise? It is obvious.

 

[Butts]

If they're advising you to travel that way, then I think you'll be absolutely fine. It's just I can't see anything official in the routeing guide that says you can do this, but with the journey planner suggesting you go that way then it's hard for anyone to argue with.

As for the walk - yes I have, and it's good exercise Of course, there will be people for whom both stations are equally convenient - those are the people I'm suggesting might want to walk.

So does the routeing guide need to be updated ?

As for the walk it's ok the other way around FKK to FKG - there should be more trains to FKG as it is in the middle of town but unfortunately not on the Glasgow to Edinburgh line :cry:
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Falkirk Grahamston to Falkirk HIGH, and you expect otherwise? It is obvious.

What the hell are you on about ? - oh High !! missed the punchline

 

[me123]

So does the routeing guide need to be updated ?

I'll leave that question for more experienced people - it may well be that I've just missed something.

 

[najaB]

^Interesting, but I certainly couldn't find any particular rules or easements that would allow this move.

I know what you mean. That's why I always go to NRE before the routeing guide.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit most of the time it is quicker to change at Linlithgow or Polmont (but not necessarily early mornings / evenings)

Heading towards Glasgow they trains typically leave at x13 and x43 minutes past the hour, and the expresses leave Haymarket at x19 and x49 minutes has the hour so you are never going to it quicker doubling back.

Going the other way the connection isn't as good, taking Polmont as an example.
leave at x00 or x30 and arrive at x18 or x48. The express leaves at x09 or x39 arriving at Haymarket at x45 or x15. You could if you get a slick connection at Haymarket beat the following stopping service by doubling back.

Of course Glasgow and Falkirk High have fast services to Haymarket and Croy you have little choice outside the peak but to double back. (in the morning the 0800 ex Glasgow has a very good connection at Polmont). I guess as Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Croy have little choice by to double back that is why it is allowed.

Off on a tangent is Dunbar still allowed to loop around Edinburgh or has that gone now it has more services into England?

 

[najaB]

Off on a tangent is Dunbar still allowed to loop around Edinburgh or has that gone now it has more services into England?

What do you mean?

 

[Failed Unit]

What do you mean?

In the past Dunbar had very few services to going to Newcastle, (maybe 3 per day under GNER) so it was permitted to do Dunbar - Edinburgh - Newcastle as an example. Now XC have increased the number of calls has that easment gone?

 

[najaB]

In the past Dunbar had very few services to going to Newcastle, (maybe 3 per day under GNER) so it was permitted to do Dunbar - Edinburgh - Newcastle as an example. Now XC have increased the number of calls has that easment gone?

Ah, okay. Understood - it was 'loop around' that confused me, I was imagining something involving the Edinburgh South Sub!

Using NRE it seems that doubling back like that is allowed on the 'Any Permitted' ticket, though there are cheaper tickets valid on direct trains only.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It seems unlikely. Edinburgh Park isn't a member of the "Edinburgh Group", so you'd be doubling back which is not permitted.

I think that's the wrong way round: Edinburgh Park is a member of Edinburgh Group, and doubling back within a routeing group is not allowed at the origin or destination of a journey, only for interchange during a journey.

I can't find an easement that says otherwise, so it isn't permitted as far as I can see.

I agree. Despite not being permitted, it looks like booking engines are allowing it because they don't detect the doubleback through Edinburgh Park on trains that don't stop there, since it isn't a mandatory timing point in the timetable data.

 

[me123]

In the past Dunbar had very few services to going to Newcastle, (maybe 3 per day under GNER) so it was permitted to do Dunbar - Edinburgh - Newcastle as an example. Now XC have increased the number of calls has that easment gone?

It's still there. However, there is also an restriction stating that passengers with tickets marked "DIRECT" can not go via Edinburgh.

Here are the relevant easements as far as I can see.

700161 - Customers travelling from Dunbar to Newcastle and beyond in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions.
700166 - Customers travelling from Dunbar to Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood,Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may travel via Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions.
700167 - Customers travelling from Dunbar to Morpeth in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may travel via Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions.
700478 - Customers travelling via Berwick Upon Tweed to stations Musselburgh, Wallyford, Prestonpans, Longniddry, Drem, North Berwick and Dunbar in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" or "EC & Connections" may double back via Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions.

However, a quick search does show that you can get tickets between Dunbar and Newcastle via Edinburgh for the price of £51.70 (Off Peak Return) - i.e. the same price as an Edinburgh to Newcastle OPR. But the DIRECT ticket comes in at £34.40 for the Off Peak Return. So there is in effect a significant increase in the price if you go via Edinburgh.
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I think that's the wrong way round: Edinburgh Park is a member of Edinburgh Group, and doubling back within a routeing group is not allowed at the origin or destination of a journey, only for interchange during a journey.

ATOC disagrees. Edinburgh Park is not listed as a member of Edinburgh Group.
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Of course Glasgow and Falkirk High have fast services to Haymarket and Croy you have little choice outside the peak but to double back. (in the morning the 0800 ex Glasgow has a very good connection at Polmont). I guess as Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Croy have little choice by to double back that is why it is allowed.

If you're talking about Glasgow passengers, the North Clyde route is probably the easiest way to get to Park station. There's rarely any significant journey time advantage to be had by changing.

 

[Paul Kelly]

edinburgh group stations"]ATOC disagrees[/URL]. Edinburgh Park is not listed as a member of Edinburgh Group.

That's a really old version of the group stations list that ATOC are still hosting on their site. The latest version is on the new dedicated routeing guide microsite:
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/group_stations.pdf

EDINBURGH GROUP
                 Dalmeny
                 Edinburgh
                 Edinburgh Gateway
                 Edinburgh Park
                 Haymarket
                 South Gyle

 

[me123]

Sounds good

It did seem odd that it wasn't, but I couldn't find a source to say it was.

 

[Butts]

Sounds good

It did seem odd that it wasn't, but I couldn't find a source to say it was.

Edinburgh Gateway has not even opened yet - white elephant a la tram !!

 

[ScotTrains]

Off on a tangent is Dunbar still allowed to loop around Edinburgh or has that gone now it has more services into England?

Also Drem to North Berwick is still valid via Edinburgh. Easement number 30095: Journeys to North Berwick are allowed via Edinburgh even when doubling back through Drem.

 

[Butts]

Well for the record tonight I got a Train from EDP to HYM and then HYM to FKK. Hopped onto the Rail Replacement Bus from FKK to FKG.

No ticket check or barrier encountered on any leg

 

[kieron]

Edinburgh Gateway has not even opened yet - white elephant a la tram !!

If they can sell tickets to there, they need to be able to work out where the tickets are valid. I suppose they'd provide buses to and from South Gyle or something if it isn't open on time.