Edinburgh Tour Operators: Bright Bus, Lothian (Majestic, Three Bridges) etc.

[SpeedbirdA350]

The vehicles leave from Livingston and return , there is an office / Canteen facility for the drivers and street sellers within the City so no shuttles or change overs to rack up any additional dead mileage

I thought so, however I was not 100%, thanks. It's good that they have a refuge area for staff however.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It's very early doors, but I'd be betting on LB at this point, everything fits for LB around Edinburgh, including its tours and the trams from EDI ArPrt

 

[Bus Lightyear]

It's very early doors, but I'd be betting on LB at this point, everything fits for LB around Edinburgh, including its tours and the trams from EDI ArPrt

But this is a completely different kettle of fish. Tourists wont really know the difference between Lothian Buses and First Edinburgh as bus operators but what they will notice is one operator charging £16 for a day ticket and £40 for a family ticket and the other charging £10 and £29. I think price could be the winner.

 

[DunsBus]

It's very early doors, but I'd be betting on LB at this point, everything fits for LB around Edinburgh, including its tours and the trams from EDI ArPrt

And meanwhile the LCB services in West Lothian continue to carry fresh air, as the punters out there are sticking with First!

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's very early doors, but I'd be betting on LB at this point, everything fits for LB around Edinburgh, including its tours and the trams from EDI ArPrt

You're still missing the point.

First are not looking to oust Lothian in the tour market. There's room for them both. What First are looking to do is impact on Lothian's revenue. "If" First got 10 passengers on each bus that's Lothian already lost £960 in potential revenue per hour. Don't take offence to this as it's not directly aimed at you, but people seem to be failing to understand the logic here. It's not about ousting Lothian or beating, it's about hurting their revenue.

 

[In Focus]

It's very early doors, but I'd be betting on LB at this point, everything fits for LB around Edinburgh, including its tours and the trams from EDI ArPrt

But the 2 markets they cant really control are Tours and Airport ...tourists and Airport passengers have no loyalty and no real connections to Lothian ,they will take what is there and probably cheaper the better.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You're still missing the point.

Is he ever.....!!!

You're absolutely right. If they're making £400 a day per vehicle, they are depriving Lothian of £640. Tourists will be drawn in by the bright colours, and won't worry about the age of the vehicles. I doubt the attractions of the tram will have much impact on that.

 

[JamboCommuter]

Tourism in Edinburgh is absolutely booming at the moment. New hotels popping up all over the place and more and more cruise ships arriving. It's a rapidly expanding market. Lothian may lose a small market share to First, but I would find it impossible to believe that they will not sell a much much bigger number of tours than they did last year.
Clearly if First were not around they might sell even more but First are really only taking a share of the expanding market. They are not really stealing Lothian's business. It's new business which doesn't belong to anyone!
So if Lothian's bottom line is still showing growth despite First entering the market is this likely to make them cut and run in West Lothian?
This seems to be the point of the exercise for First but market conditions are against them.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Tourism in Edinburgh is absolutely booming at the moment. New hotels popping up all over the place and more and more cruise ships arriving. It's a rapidly expanding market. Lothian may lose a small market share to First, but I would find it impossible to believe that they will not sell a much much bigger number of tours than they did last year.
Clearly if First were not around they might sell even more but First are really only taking a share of the expanding market. They are not really stealing Lothian's business. It's new business which doesn't belong to anyone!
So if Lothian's bottom line is still showing growth despite First entering the market is this likely to make them cut and run in West Lothian?
This seems to be the point of the exercise for First but market conditions are against them.

Even if that was the case it's still a loss to Lothian as First are taking potential customers.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

EDIT:

How do people/tourists travel from the airport to the city centre? Tram or 100, perhaps a taxi, with whom is likely an edinburgh driver...

When they leave the airport terminal who is the resident provider of transport? Ie The Airlink and its booth or tram.

Who are the employees within the airport, many will be from edinburgh!? Naturally answering with LB in mind from transport questions from visitor/tourists.

Type “Edinburgh Tours” into google search! chances are you’ll find City SightSeeing not BBT, surely tourists are not that old fashioned, google knows best.

Are we saying these channels aren't those that tourists will take?

from the get go, as I said before LBT have the eco-system, the residents(taxi drivers, bus drivers, tram drivers, airport staff and those generally who may be from Edinburgh being asked questions by tourists, the internet which point to Lothians services of Any kind when edinburgh transport is regarded.

If Edinburgh's tourism is booming like everyone says it is whilst lothian “DO” have the saturation of tour buses BBT will very much be taking a small % of total ridership.

I am looking forward to seeing accounts for the LCB venture, will there be softer negatives than currently thought there will be, I am looking forward to finding out.

Lothian have recently announced that ridership was down yet revenue was up, ticket prices haven't fluctuated that much in the recent 2 years besides a small increase in single fares, could this be the result of LMC adding to the revenue?

 

[Jordan Adam]

How do people/tourists travel from the airport to the city centre?

The Airlink or Tram obviously. But that won't have a big impact on tour services.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The Airlink or Tram obviously. But that won't have a big impact on tour services.

Not if lothian end up with a retaliation plan in the way of going to intercept tourists at the airport...on the road isn't the only way to sell a service.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Not if lothian end up with a retaliation plan in the way of going to intercept tourists at the airport...on the road isn't the only way to sell a service.

That's a fair point, but i suspect many of the tourists are from within the UK so may come by train rather than Plane.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

That's a fair point, but i suspect many of the tourists are from within the UK so may come by train rather than Plane.

Whats been seen in the rest of the uk likely wont surprise you in edinburgh, albeit most cities dont usually have a castle looking over it at the top of a cliff..

 

[JamboCommuter]

Even if that was the case it's still a loss to Lothian as First are taking potential customers.

But for the reasons I outlined it's not going to make a blind bit difference to the outcome in West Lothian.

All that will matter to Lothian is that the number of tours actually sold will have increased significantly. If some visitors choose to spend their £10 on a Bright Tour, a trip to the Castle or a pint in the Cafe Royal it's not really an issue. Indeed it would be nonsense to suggest it would be a £10 loss to the Cafe Royal if the visitor chooses the bus tour. The loss of potential business is different to a real financial deficit (like spending £100 and only recouping £80).

 

[In Focus]

Not if lothian end up with a retaliation plan in the way of going to intercept tourists at the airport...on the road isn't the only way to sell a service.

Ahh the Airport now there is a plan ,another cash pot waiting , I wonder .

 

[smtglasgow]

Saw a few of the First tour buses yesterday with decent loads. To be fair, Lothian’s buses were also very well filled, so perhaps enough business to make everyone happy? Edinburgh is rammed with tourists at the moment, and we’re still a month away from the festival – suspect that over the next few months at least this will be a positive move for First. Is it an all-year round venture, or will it stop for the winter?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But for the reasons I outlined it's not going to make a blind bit difference to the outcome in West Lothian.

All that will matter to Lothian is that the number of tours actually sold will have increased significantly. If some visitors choose to spend their £10 on a Bright Tour, a trip to the Castle or a pint in the Cafe Royal it's not really an issue. Indeed it would be nonsense to suggest it would be a £10 loss to the Cafe Royal if the visitor chooses the bus tour. The loss of potential business is different to a real financial deficit (like spending £100 and only recouping £80).

I'm not certain that's really the point either.

First of all, tourism figures have increased by nearly a third since 2010. That's about 3-4% a year (compounded) - if First take more than 4% of the market, they will be eating into Lothian's profits.

I don't think anyone is realistically expecting First to suddenly dislodge Lothian, or indeed have some major effect. However, it becomes more difficult to make the argument to continue running in West Lothian and doubtless losing no small amount of money (though not as much as some people were suggesting), whilst also losing some of your very healthy and lucrative open top market.

As for the Airport/Tram question, that does provide a bit of a USP but it's not a silver bullet. Many tourists will arrive by train or car and as initial reports suggest, that isn't proving to be a barrier to First. This is perhaps why First have targeted the tours market - there is no loyalty to an operator as you would have with a traditional bus service with longer duration passes etc. The power of the incumbent is diminished as it's a one off purchase. Mention was made by one poster about LB reducing their prices to "price match" First - that would probably cheer First immensely if they did that.

 

[JamboCommuter]

I'm not certain that's really the point either.

First of all, tourism figures have increased by nearly a third since 2010. That's about 3-4% a year (compounded) - if First take more than 4% of the market, they will be eating into Lothian's profits.

I don't think anyone is realistically expecting First to suddenly dislodge Lothian, or indeed have some major effect. However, it becomes more difficult to make the argument to continue running in West Lothian and doubtless losing no small amount of money (though not as much as some people were suggesting), whilst also losing some of your very healthy and lucrative open top market.

As for the Airport/Tram question, that does provide a bit of a USP but it's not a silver bullet. Many tourists will arrive by train or car and as initial reports suggest, that isn't proving to be a barrier to First. This is perhaps why First have targeted the tours market - there is no loyalty to an operator as you would have with a traditional bus service with longer duration passes etc. The power of the incumbent is diminished as it's a one off purchase. Mention was made by one poster about LB reducing their prices to "price match" First - that would probably cheer First immensely if they did that.

You may be interested in this article from The Scotsman.

<<https://www.scotsman.com/heritage/e...s-most-serious-overtourism-hotspots-1-4958194>>

The number of overnight stays now sits at 4.26 million per annum an increase of a third over the last 7 years. Day trips have increased year on year by approximately 500k.
So potentially the tourist market could increase by almost 700k in the next year.

Are First really going to take all the additional tour business generated by this increased market?

I wouldn't think so but only time will tell how this pans out.

 

[In Focus]

You may be interested in this article from The Scotsman.

<<https://www.scotsman.com/heritage/e...s-most-serious-overtourism-hotspots-1-4958194>>

The number of overnight stays now sits at 4.26 million per annum an increase of a third over the last 7 years. Day trips have increased year on year by approximately 500k.
So potentially the tourist market could increase by almost 700k in the next year.

Are First really going to take all the additional tour business generated by this increased market?

I wouldn't think so but only time will tell how this pans out.

Do you really think First expect to "take all that extra tour business"?
Let me put it In plain English so it's clear, First only expect to take a small percentage anything around 10 % will suffice at present ,that more than covers the shortfall and inconvenience of LCB setting up in West Lothian and the financial impact on West Lothian .
Put simply there are many millions of pounds available in Edinburgh as the report highlights, there are not Millions of extra pounds floating around public transport in West lothian and not a tourist market in sight .

 

[smtglasgow]

Now that First have entered the market, you wonder why it’s taken so long for *anyone* to compete with Lothian. If visitor numbers are growing as much the Scotsman says (and it certainly feels busier than ever around the Royal Mile/Bridges) there should be enough business to sustain both Lothian and First. But if First can do just well enough to cover their losses in West Lothian, then it’s game on for them – Lothian will still be racking up the losses with LCB.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Now that First have entered the market, you wonder why it’s taken so long for *anyone* to compete with Lothian. If visitor numbers are growing as much the Scotsman says (and it certainly feels busier than ever around the Royal Mile/Bridges) there should be enough business to sustain both Lothian and First. But if First can do just well enough to cover their losses in West Lothian, then it’s game on for them – Lothian will still be racking up the losses with LCB.

At present revenue for the WL branch of FSE hasn't fallen, it's just expenditure has increase due to the increase in PVR and the setting up of BBT.

 

[Fryschocream]

Really Jordan? How do you work that out when Jarvis is claiming he's lost up to 50% of the market? Oh...and he said that in a stakeholder group meeting and in the press.

 

[lastbus]

Really Jordan? How do you work that out when Jarvis is claiming he's lost up to 50% of the market? Oh...and he said that in a stakeholder group meeting and in the press.

Highly doubt they have lost 50% of the market. Where in the press is this as I also doubt that if true he would tell the press about it.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Really Jordan? How do you work that out when Jarvis is claiming he's lost up to 50% of the market? Oh...and he said that in a stakeholder group meeting and in the press.

It's insider information, i can't validate it. However given the source it's pretty reliable. Jarvis hasn't said as far as i'm aware that they've lost 50% of the market, just like how none of the BBT vehicles broke down prior to the service starting...

Highly doubt they have lost 50% of the market. Where in the press is this as I also doubt that if true he would tell the press about it.

In all honesty "50% of the market" is rather vague even if it were said.

 

[JamboCommuter]

Do you really think First expect to "take all that extra tour business"?
Let me put it In plain English so it's clear, First only expect to take a small percentage anything around 10 % will suffice at present ,that more than covers the shortfall and inconvenience of LCB setting up in West Lothian and the financial impact on West Lothian .
Put simply there are many millions of pounds available in Edinburgh as the report highlights, there are not Millions of extra pounds floating around public transport in West lothian and not a tourist market in sight .

I think you should read through the thread properly. My last post replied specifically to the scenario suggested by TheGrandWazoo about the level of business First would require to do to take some of Lothian's existing business. The link I provided highlights the sheer volume of business in Edinburgh. I don't think anyone disputes that! It was meant to justify the points I raised in post 368 et al. I stand by my previous comments. If you disagree...fine. I won't lose any sleep over it.

As I said in my previous post only time will tell how this pans out.

 

[Fryschocream]

Jarvis freely admitted it. That insider info.....damn....if only some of us were actually privvy to it oh....and suspension not lifting and departing 20L seems like a breakdown....however short....to me.

 

[CraigLockhart]

Apologies for the poor picture but this one is definitely broken down.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Apologies for the poor picture but this one is definitely broken down.

Yes, however that's totally unrelated to the previous instances mentioned where they weren't broken down and simply pulled over for a photo shoot!

 

[AlexanderPS]

Apologies for the poor picture but this one is definitely broken down.

It's not broken down it's pushing the tow truck