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Edinburgh tram to be truncated to Haymarket in absence of £231M

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WatcherZero

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Besides sloppy and sometimes incompetent work by the contractor the main ovverun boils down to discovering twice as many utilities requiring diverted as expected (along side graveyards and sites of historical importance which require archeological excavation before work can resume again). Mostly it is the councils fault, they did the ground surveys to discern the extent of utilities work required (and should have a good idea whats below their own streets), the contract was tendered on the basis of the surveys provided with the companies bidding to carry out the works identified. When the overruns were discovered and the extra work carried out TIE refused to reimburse for the extra costs above contracted work, the contractors kept downing tools for months on end in protest, several disputes were put before the independent auditor and it ruled in the contractors favour about 95% of the time, but still TIE kept disputing every ovverun. In the meantime while tools were downed work continued on the non-disputed (cross country and Depot) sections so they are way in advance of the city centre works which are at least three years behind schedule on a project originally expected to take 3 years!
 
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tbtc

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There have many instances of councils being completely out of their depth. I recall some problems with an IT project at Swansea COuncil a few years back...

You are correct. The main problem as I see it is that councils and other public sector organisations don't generally have the required expertise or experience to manage such projects properly. This is just as true for the government, as witnessed by the MoD finacial mismanagement.

Unfortunately, I don't have any solution tot he problem!

Priva Eye is usually full of stories of naive Government staff (Councillors/ Civil Servants/ Politicians etc) badly specifying/ managing big projects which ends up in them being stuck with a complicated and costly contract with Serco/ Capita/ BAM/ EDS (etc) that ends up costing far too much money (for a poorer product). Look at how certain places get suckered into paying millions in "infrastructure improvements" so First can run a posh bendi-bus in their city... <(

Whilst I'm a great believer in the state being able to be part of the solution (and not just part of the problem), it is often useless/ weak/ naive when it comes to organising/ running major projects - Edinburgh trams being only the latest on a long list...

These sorts of problems should have been foreseen. The trouble is that contract disputes take an age to resolve and are very costly for both parties.

Yes. There's obviously going to be a lot more under Edinburgh's ancient streets, they should have expected to find some "unknowns" down there - they seemed to have planned it on the cheap with no contingency. In hindsight it was very naive.

I never understood the approach tot he construction works. Building and opening the tram route in sections would have allowed the revenue flow to begin, and for teething problems witht he equipment to be ironed out.

Snap!

If they did Airport - Edinburgh Park then that gets trams linking the Airport (and Gyle shopping/business centre) to the national rail network, it allows them to gradually bring trams/ staff "on stream" - whilst earning money.

Sheffield made a few mistakes in the early years (e.g. the "validation" of tickets at separate machines) - much better to launch things gradually to iron out such problems.

And surely a lot cheaper to do a bit at a time, learn from that and open sections at a time to bring some money on board.

I hope that other cities get the chance to learn from Edinburgh's mistakes (and that these mistakes don't mean no more/new Light Rail schemes in the UK)
 

tbtc

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That's the Edinburgh Council way.

Sadly, I agree.

It could have been brilliant - they could have learnt from the mistakes that "first generation" schemes of modern trams made (Sheffield, Manchester etc), they could have had all of the benefits of bus integration (which have worked so well in Nottingham) with the benefits of National Rail connections and the obvious existing market along the number 22 bus (compared to Sheffield etc which had to start from scratch).

It could have been brilliant. It clearly won't.
 

Greenback

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Priva Eye is usually full of stories of naive Government staff (Councillors/ Civil Servants/ Politicians etc) badly specifying/ managing big projects which ends up in them being stuck with a complicated and costly contract with Serco/ Capita/ BAM/ EDS (etc) that ends up costing far too much money (for a poorer product). Look at how certain places get suckered into paying millions in "infrastructure improvements" so First can run a posh bendi-bus in their city... <(

Whilst I'm a great believer in the state being able to be part of the solution (and not just part of the problem), it is often useless/ weak/ naive when it comes to organising/ running major projects - Edinburgh trams being only the latest on a long list...

I think that part of it, at least ina local government perspective, is that the elected members often feel a sense of power when they are involved in these big projects, organisations like First, Serco etc then find it easier to massage their ego's and plant ideas in the minds of the members. The council member can then instruct the council officials on what the project must include, overruling any advice that is given where the official actually knows better!

This can be compounded a couple of years later when there is an election, a new party or alliance gains control and a new council member takes over responsibility!

I hope that other cities get the chance to learn from Edinburgh's mistakes (and that these mistakes don't mean no more/new Light Rail schemes in the UK)

I hope so too, although my rather negative gut instinct is that no other city will dare follow Edinburgh now...
 

dalmahoyhill

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You are right the government and councils don’t have a great track record in large scale projects. But that was why TIE was set up to supposedly provide the private sector expertise that the council didn't have. From what I can see although it had people from the private sector it didn't have anyone who had been involved in the big trams projects in England . Until we have a private enquiry we will not really know what happened as all parties still have contracts in force so cannot prejudice them in public.

The big thing to take away is that all the budget is spent and the job is only half complete. If the contractor had made a ham fist of the project TIE would be in arbitration or court forcing him to complete the work at his loss and at no cost to the public sector. As TIE lost most of the claims in arbitration and it has paid the contractor although he was massively behind in programme suggests the problem has been mainly at TIE's end.
From the snippets of info gleaned from the audit Scotland and the press here I put my thoughts in a previous post my thoughts on why it went wrong.

Basically it sounds as if I broadly concur with Watcher Zero and tbtc on the problems. Watcher Zero mentions the number of claims and how TIE kept on loosing. Indeed TIE will have to pay the contractors costs for delaying and paying his standing workforce every time they lost a claim. Think of how many guys they had working on the trams and how much they would have to pay them each day after they downed tools? Greenback is right, no one wins when both parties get into claims and disputes, everyone loses money.

tbtc mentions the service relocations, they heavily delayed the project but they didn’t go that much over budget compared to the total cost. It was the contractual wrangling that ended up ramping up the costs and possibly the lack of complete design and ground investigation.

I work in the construction industry for the private sector and there are various problems with the way we do things including our end and the public sector bodies acquiring the work. These are what I thinks wrong and it is pretty extensive. On our part the bad things we do are:

Consultants (ie designers) tend to over specify and overdesign work to avoid the perceived risk of making a mistake and getting sued or to follow standards slavishly. Designers tend to be trained as specialists in their respective area so they don’t work very well at being intergrated across a complex project. There tends not be much common sense used to proportion the amount of design required.

The industry contrary to popular belief is very low margin, it was 5% profit tops before the recession now most companies are lucky to be doing work at cost. Obviously construction is not like manufacturing where you design a product, test it thoroughly and repeat it. Most of our work involves a lot of bespoke work as no two sites or design is the same. So it always carries a lot of inherent risk.
Some contractors try and get around the low margins by looking at holes in the contract to exploit. They go in very low in a bid and possibly at a loss and try and make it back in claims. I have heard that Bilfiger Berger did this on the trams. Even if it was true if the design and contract were water tight BB wouldn’t have been able to win the claims. Consultants and the public bodies are rightly wary of this happening which makes them more conservative.

Public bodies don’t do contingency and risk. They think the contract can be written so everything is offloaded onto the contractor and it leaves them with no risk, this is a fallacy. For a start they have to use and adopt the infrastructure when it is completed so it is in their interests to get the best job done. This is where the public sector falls down, this works if the contractor makes a hash but if you leave gaps, give them bad information or change your mind on work items then no contract will cover that and you have to pay the contractor accordingly..

Clients don’t like paying for the upfront work like ground investigations and design as they see is wasted expense. So quite often you go into a project blind with a lack of information and therefore more likely to be either overdesigned or plain wrong.

Indecision by the public sector. This is a real problem, no one making a decision or starting projects and changing things half way through (the Scottish parliament, IEP and the Sydney opera house are all salient examples of this.

Bean counters always wanting the lowest cost. This looks good on paper but is the contractor up to scratch? Did he get his price right?. Did he deliberately go too low hoping to claim? Are corners going to be cut? What about the whole life cost of the project would it be better to go for something more expensive, better built that costs less in operational and maintenance costs? All this goes out of the window and the lowest cost is always picked. In addition it is hard for public servants not to pick the lowest cost as it would get jumped on by Politicians the press.

Yep the public sector is hopeless with contracts. Some of the modern contracts understand the fact we deal with risk and uncertainty and have contract options to share the risk between the public bodies and the contractors. So it has terms like if the contractor takes on all the uncertainty and it comes in under budget the savings are shared between the contractor and the employer. All seems fair, but try getting that past a politician and the press. That comes out as "we are giving the contractors a bonus' that could be paying for more schools". So most public sector bodies go lump sum with no contingency.

If you tell a bean counter that you should hold back an extra 20% in case of say something like finding archaeological sites under the works the 20% gets knocked off. The public sector doesn’t do ‘risk pots’.

Other things that add costs on to large UK jobs are:
Planning. Our systems terrible, it burns up years of time and cost, more time than it will take to construct it. In France , if it is deemed in the national interest it gets fast tracked without 10 years of monkeying around.

Land costs. Britain ’s densely populated and land acquisition is based on market value. I.e. in the SE and home counties for HS2 very pricey!

Environmental and safety standards for our infrastructure is higher than some other European countries.

Optimisation Bias by the Treasury. It’s another word for contingency used by treasury wonks. They worry too many capital projects go over so they add a large extra lump of cash on top of the actual cost estimate ‘just in case’. The problem with this approach is it get locked in as an ‘actual cost’ and everyone aims towards it and it ends up costing that amount. Every large government project is affected by this. My solution would be for the treasury to hold a central risk pot for all projects.

There is a report called ‘never waste a good crisis’ by Constructing Excellence that analyses what’s wrong with the industry, it makes great bedtime reading!

In defence i would say you hear about all the bad jobs and never hear when jobs go well. Manchester have a good handle on their trams network and it is clearly a success. Look at the Newcastle metro. HS1 was built to time and budget.
 
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boing_uk

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Mostly it is the councils fault, they did the ground surveys to discern the extent of utilities work required (and should have a good idea whats below their own streets), the contract was tendered on the basis of the surveys provided with the companies bidding to carry out the works identified.

I do hope you are joking? There is no way that any highway authority knows what is under their streets - even when all the statutory undertakers drawings are collated. This is particularly true in old towns, where underground voids, cellars, uncharted services, supposedly abandoned but actually live services, old mine workings, wells, culverts, old industrial plant foundations can all be found which are fairly often on no records

The only true way of getting an even rough idea of anything under the ground would be to fully survey it using ground penetrating radar and even then you are unlikely to catch everything or worse make wildly incorrect and over cautious assumptions.

While the disputes between TIE and the contractor may seem silly, in any civil engineering contract - particularly highways contracts - they can and do drag on, especially when the costs of the extras are significant. This is not anyones fault except that of the civil engineering profession in general, where pennies are practically argued over.

What I cannot understand is why the LR55 concept hasn't at least been trialled on this project. From a purely engineering perspective, it seems to be the ideal solution to the problem. Yes its different, but who is to say that different is substantially worse - and given the disruption Edinburgh has suffered, it might have proven to be a whole different story.
 

90019

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I do hope you are joking? There is no way that any highway authority knows what is under their streets - even when all the statutory undertakers drawings are collated. This is particularly true in old towns, where underground voids, cellars, uncharted services, supposedly abandoned but actually live services, old mine workings, wells, culverts, old industrial plant foundations can all be found which are fairly often on no records

Problem is, Edinburgh Council seem to have no idea at all of anything under the streets. It's well known that the area I live in has patches of sand all over the place, along with a few underground streams as well, but the council seem blissfully unaware of this, hence when they tried to replace a sewer just by my house, the road collapsed and ended up being closed for a year. Another road round the corner used to collapse in on itself every couple of years when the sand underneath was washed away by the Wardie Burn, which runs under it. Thankfully they finally seem to have repaired it properly a few years back.
There was also a road about 1/2 a mile away that a hole gradually appeared in as a patch of sand underneath it subsided, the hole was only a few inches wide, but it was wide enough to cause problems.

There are various bits of road nearby that have subsided over a relatively small area, dipping by 3 or 4 inches over a few feet, getting slowly worse, I believe they are also caused by sand patches.
 

WatcherZero

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Perhaps its just as I live in a former mining town but the council do keep track of where everything is, with over 1600 known mineshafts in the Borough they have to be really careful with development and laise heavily with the Geological Survey and Mining Records Office to keep records uptodate. Theres also a former nuclear bunker running under most of the town centre as well. Mind you half the High streets also dug up at the moment replacing all the lead Water and Gas mains with plastic ones.
 

Greenback

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Dalmayhoyhill is right about public bodies notunderstanding risk. It is like a disease in this country. We are obsessed with 'value for money' which normally means getting things done as cheaply as possible. Add to this the reluctance to build in a contingency pot and things normally end up costing far, far more.
 

tbtc

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Does anyone reckon this is just a big political bluff?

A few weeks ago, we'd have complained if the trams weren't going to run to Leith (etc).

Now, by temporarily suggesting that trams would be terminated artificially short at Haymarket. we are meant to be grateful that the trams will run all the way to St Andrew Square...

Is it just me being cynical?
 

Greenback

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Does anyone reckon this is just a big political bluff?

A few weeks ago, we'd have complained if the trams weren't going to run to Leith (etc).

Now, by temporarily suggesting that trams would be terminated artificially short at Haymarket. we are meant to be grateful that the trams will run all the way to St Andrew Square...

Is it just me being cynical?

I'm normally pretty cynical, but on this occasion I can't see that there is the intelligence to run a political bluff!
 

driver9000

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The council have overturned the decision to truncate the line at Haymarket. The line will once again terminate at St Andrew Square.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14751711

I was all for this scheme when it was first announced with the original plans showing 3 routes, but as time has gone on and the totally shambolic way the project has been handled with bits lopped off I can no longer see the need for a tram through Western Edinburgh unless you are travelling to the Airport (which is already served by the 100 express bus). The money would have been better spent on improving the infrastructure for the generally good bus services.
 
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robertclark125

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The council have overturned the decision to truncate the line at Haymarket. The line will once again terminate at St Andrew Square.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14751711

I was all for this scheme when it was first announced with the original plans showing 3 routes, but as time has gone on and the totally shambolic way the project has been handled with bits lopped off I can no longer see the need for a tram through Western Edinburgh unless you are travelling to the Airport. The money would have been better spent on improving the infrastructure for the generally good bus services.

Which is where it should have finished in the first place. Honestly, what a mess.
 

driver9000

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Which is where it should have finished in the first place. Honestly, what a mess.

It should have gone to Leith as per the original plan with the extension to Clermiston* and the Infirmary folllowing on after! My current thoughts on the trams are they just shouldn't have bothered full stop.

*I'm sure line 1B or whatever it was called was going to terminate at Clermiston - I've misplaced the original leaflet detailing the plans.
 

tom1649

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The money should have been spent on reopening the Edinburgh suburban line.
 
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