Edinburgh tram to be truncated to Haymarket in absence of £231M

[ivanhoe]

What this sorry mess shows is how incompetent as a nation( UK) when it comes to large infrastructure projects. We are looking for political scapegoats but what about the inability of some of our Civil Engineering Companies to complete projects on time and within budgets. This does not bode well for future projects whilst we have the current status quo with appalling project management and political ineptitude.

 

[pemma]

I have the solution.

To save Scotland's transport system money they don't invest in any more new trains. Electrification projects continue though.

The Thameslink EMUs go to Scotrail. They release their 380s to Northern and FGW who order new 380s to compliment that fleet.

Scotrail give up their 158s and receive the cheaper to run 143s and 144s as replacement. Obviously Northern, FGW and ATW receive the 158s. This would mean 156s would be used alongside the 170s on the longer services and the Pacers on shorter services. There would be no need to use 170s and 158s on local services in Scotland anymore.

Then some of the 170s and 156s would be released by electrification.

That'd be plenty of money saved by Transport Scotland to compensate for all the money still required for the over budget Edinburgh tram.

 

[Yew]

I have the solution.

To save Scotland's transport system money they don't invest in any more new trains. Electrification projects continue though.

The Thameslink EMUs go to Scotrail. They release their 380s to Northern and FGW who order new 380s to compliment that fleet.

Scotrail give up their 158s and receive the cheaper to run 143s and 144s as replacement. Obviously Northern, FGW and ATW receive the 158s. This would mean 156s would be used alongside the 170s on the longer services and the Pacers on shorter services. There would be no need to use 170s and 158s on local services in Scotland anymore.

Then some of the 170s and 156s would be released by electrification.

That'd be plenty of money saved by Transport Scotland to compensate for all the money still required for the over budget Edinburgh tram.

Im sure the scottish assmebly would moan about how scotland gets treated as a second class country if they had pacers

 

[tom1649]

Im sure the scottish assmebly would moan about how scotland gets treated as a second class country if they had pacers

Tough, 158s and 170s should not be working these local services in Scotland, when certain long distance services in England are being run with Pacers. And I speak as someone who likes pacers (gets ready to dive out of the firing line).

 

[90019]

We are looking for political scapegoats but what about the inability of some of our Civil Engineering Companies to complete projects on time and within budgets.

The main problems lie with the incompetent organisation that is TIE, not the contractors, though TIE have tried to blame them and everyone else possible at every opportunity.

 

[junglejames]

What I don't understand is if they have laid track along Princess street and they are running as far as Haymarket what is still required to get to Waverley? Also is there no way they could cover the rails on Princess street so if the money was found later it could be extended?

Apparently the track along Princes Street was done so badly, that it would need to be relaid again to run trams on it.

 

[90019]

Apparently the track along Princes Street was done so badly, that it would need to be relaid again to run trams on it.

It's already had to be repaired multiple times and it's not had a single tram run on it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The main problems lie with the incompetent organisation that is TIE, not the contractors, . . . . .

That has been my assessment too. Though I'm tempted to go further as it beggars belief that the City's Legal advisors were quite so "incompetant" to accept Contracted Terms which passed liability for most 'unknown factors' back to the City.
The level of legal expertise practiced in Edinburgh doesn't leave much room for naivety in signing-off major contracts!

It's already had to be repaired multiple times and it's not had a single tram run on it.

Though did have one tram craned onto it then craned back off it again (due to lack of planning permission for a static installation on the carriageway of Princes Street - or so the story went at the time).

 

[WatcherZero]

The feeling that it was beyond Edinburgh Councils experience was why the SNP government forced them to set up TIE arms length from the Council and set up an independent auditor with monthly reviews in the first place. Only the auditor has done bugger all and left TIE to its own implosion.

The problem with Princes street forcing it to be relaid was twofold, firstly the contractor cocked up the mixture for the resin that insulates the rails from the road surface, then they did a crap job on the surfacing. Secondly theyve closed it twice because not all the work was done in one go (to re-open for Festival season tourists), the second time it was closed was with the contract negotations breakdown so all the while it was closed no work was being done.

 

[tbtc]

What this sorry mess shows is how incompetent as a nation( UK) when it comes to large infrastructure projects. We are looking for political scapegoats but what about the inability of some of our Civil Engineering Companies to complete projects on time and within budgets. This does not bode well for future projects whilst we have the current status quo with appalling project management and political ineptitude.

Sadly I agree with you.

See also Wembly Stadium, Scottish Parliament, Cambridge Busway...

It doesn't bode well for HS2, does it?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Sadly I agree with you.

See also Wembly Stadium, Scottish Parliament, Cambridge Busway...

It doesn't bode well for HS2, does it?

I don't know, HS1 was a rare exception of something that actually worked on time and in budget, so perhaps HS2 can follow that.
Add the West Coast Route Modernisation to that list though. I expect IEP will be another one.

 

[tbtc]

I don't know, HS1 was a rare exception of something that actually worked on time and in budget, so perhaps HS2 can follow that.
Add the West Coast Route Modernisation to that list though. I expect IEP will be another one.

I don't want to be pessimistic about things - I don't think its just a transport problem - we just have problems getting value for money in public building schemes - I don't know what the answer is.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Edinburgh is "the jewel in the crown" for Scotland and a tremendous tourist attraction for overseas visitors, who contribute much financial input into the economy of Edinburgh.

This fiasco, with the very heart of Edinburgh being involved, has done absolutely nothing for the tourist potential of the city.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Edinburgh is "the jewel in the crown" for Scotland and a tremendous tourist attraction...

Except for up 'round Leith

I can't help but feel smug, and say that if a heavy rail link would have been built, there wouldn't have been so many problems: no mass street closures, no mass disruption, just 4tph from the heart of the airport to the heart of the city centre and Scotland's second busiest railway station...

 

[matchmaker]

Tough, 158s and 170s should not be working these local services in Scotland, when certain long distance services in England are being run with Pacers. And I speak as someone who likes pacers (gets ready to dive out of the firing line).

As Pacers are banned from passenger service in Scotland (apart from Carlisle-Dumfries) that's not going to happen.

And what is your definition of "local services"?

 

[ainsworth74]

As Pacers are banned from passenger service in Scotland (apart from Carlisle-Dumfries) that's not going to happen.

For what reason are Pacers banned from Scotland?

 

[317 forever]

I read that had the line continued to St Andrew's Square it would have been operationally profitable, but will make a loss as just a Haymarket shuttle. So, particularly having already laid down tram tracks along Princes Street, they could be wasting money in the long run by not completing the line as far as St Andrew's Square.

I understand that Labour and the Tories voted down the St Andrew's Square section, the SNP abstained but only the LibDems favoured its retention. Given their poor showing in the Scottish Parliament and English Council elections this year, I doubt a new Council next year will have enough Councillors in favour of a vote to reinstate the St Andrew's Square link.

 

[90019]

So, particularly having already laid down tram tracks along Princes Street, they could be wasting money in the long run by not completing the line as far as St Andrew's Square.

The lines on Princes Street are not currently good enough to be used.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given their poor showing in the Scottish Parliament and English Council elections this year, I doubt a new Council next year will have enough Councillors in favour of a vote to reinstate the St Andrew's Square link.

That is extremely likely to be the case, after all the recent events, politics being what it is.

 

[WatcherZero]

THE DECISION to terminate Edinburgh's tramline at Haymarket, which was taken by councillors a few days ago, is looking doubtful following a warning by the Scottish Government that it is preparing to withhold £60 million from the scheme. Now the future of the floundering project is to be discussed once again at a special meeting at the end of this week.

Conservative and Labour councillors had overruled the pro-tram Liberal Democrats by voting to restrict the new service to the section between the airport and Haymarket.

The latest estimate of the total cost had reached £1 billion, and councillors were told that abandoning the section between Haymarket and St Andrew Square would reduce the cost of the scheme by removing £231 million in borrowing costs.

This decision sparked new outrage in the city, particularly because Princes Street was closed to traffic for almost a year to allow tramlines to be laid. If trams terminate at Haymarket this section won't be needed, and Edinburgh's showcase shopping street might have to close again to allow the lines to be lifted.

But the whole debate has been thrown into fresh uncertainty after the first minister Alex Salmond said the government was preparing to withhold £60 million if trams terminate at Haymarket. The money is what remains of a £500 million grant from Holyrood, the rest of which has been paid.

Now the Lord Provost is to convene a special meeting on Friday, to consider the implications of the Scottish Government's stance.

If the last tranche of government money was to be withheld, the economics of restricting trams to the airport-Haymarket section would be thrown into turmoil, and the case for continuing to St Andrew Square, via Princes Street, might become preferable again.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/metro/2011/08/30-now-edinburgh-tram-decision-looks.html

Drugs....thats its... The SNP must be on drugs mustnt they? Its the only explanation for their erratic behaviour. (That or the SNP local party knew the National SNP were going to withhold the funding)

 

[starrymarkb]

For what reason are Pacers banned from Scotland?

Because the Scotrail sector of BR declared that they didn't want them, and it hasn't been repeled. nothing physical stopping them operating (some have been to up there for refurbs IIRC). Same with the former Network South East area (I believe it was the same manager), the ban was political*. Remember that the sectors also had control over their infrastructure so could ban stock...

*NSE had their own plans with the Networker concept of a standardised fleet family with high commonality between diesel and electric variants (rather like the Turbostars and Electrostars, which are based on the Networker concept) and

 

[BestWestern]

Because the Scotrail sector of BR declared that they didn't want them, and it hasn't been repeled. nothing physical stopping them operating (some have been to up there for refurbs IIRC). Same with the former Network South East area (I believe it was the same manager), the ban was political*. Remember that the sectors also had control over their infrastructure so could ban stock...

*NSE had their own plans with the Networker concept of a standardised fleet family with high commonality between diesel and electric variants (rather like the Turbostars and Electrostars, which are based on the Networker concept) and

Thank the lord for that manager then!

Going back to the tramway, can anyone summarise briefly what the actual cause of the huge overspend is, and indeed why it seems to be continually rising?!

 

[pemma]

As Pacers are banned from passenger service in Scotland (apart from Carlisle-Dumfries) that's not going to happen.

Do you have any evidence that Pacers are banned? AFAIK Pacers aren't banned it's merely that none were ever ordered for the Scotland so they just haven't been used there.

I imagine Pacers would be banned for certain Scottish lines if clearance was applied for, just like in the North West and Cornwall but until clearance is applied for and rejected they are not banned, just not cleared.

And what is your definition of "local services"?

What is a local service partly depends on the other services.

If it's like Manchester-Liverpool where there are three semi-fast services an hour then the other all/most stop services are local as there is no need to use them end to end.

If it's like Chester-Manchester where there's one fast and one slow but both are hourly then you could claim that neither are really local.

If there is only one route between two places and all the trains take around the same amount of time then I'd use around an hour as the longest service that should be defined as local.

 

[Julia]

The national government has now confirmed its £60m is withdrawn.

Of course this may just be more politicking - the city council like any other authority cannot reopen an issue within 6 months of a vote unless there's a substantial change of circumstances. Pulling funds is about the only way the national government has of causing such a substantial change. Then again, the whole project has become little more than a very expensive football for the various parties to kick at each other...

 

[Greenback]

Then again, the whole project has become little more than a very expensive football for the various parties to kick at each other...

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why we are unable to manage these big projects effectively!

 

[matchmaker]

For what reason are Pacers banned from Scotland?

I am not sure - but the restriction is in the Sectional Appendix, rather than Scotrail saying "we don't want them".

They are allowed as far as Kilmarnock empty - presumably to go to Hunslet-Barclay.

 

[tbtc]

*NSE had their own plans with the Networker concept of a standardised fleet family with high commonality between diesel and electric variants (rather like the Turbostars and Electrostars, which are based on the Networker concept)

Imagine how much better the world would be if that ethos had continued post-privatisation?

NSE were ahead of their time - in so many ways we have gone backwards since then

Going back to the tramway, can anyone summarise briefly what the actual cause of the huge overspend is, and indeed why it seems to be continually rising?!

To me, the problem appears to be the Council not knowing what they were doing and trying to get a cheap tender.

Then when unforseen problems occured (such as problems moving gas/electricity/water supplies under ground - not much of a surprise given the rich history beneath Edinburgh's streets...) they try to get the contractors to pick up the tab for things, which causes stand-offs and delays things (before the council have to pay more for the work, pushing the costs up).

There's also the problem of them trying to do everything at once - if they'd just done the first part from the Airport to Edinburgh Park it'd be up and running already and they'd be able to have extended it to Haymarket by now (with further extensions to come). But, by digging up Princes Street, St Andrew Square, Leith Walk and the route to Ocean Terminal at the same time as the work in western Edinburgh, they've left themselves too thinly spread.

Sadly because the people who specify big public schemes like this generally have little experience of such tenders, they don't know what to specify, don't know what contingencies to have and don't know how to manage contractors. Look at how much smarter GMPTE/TfGM are about tram extensions now (compared to the initial lines) - sadly I don't think anyone in Edinburgh will get the experience of a tender for a tram extension :roll:

Compare this to how efficiently Tesco will design/ build/ open a shop - because they know what they are doing.

 

[pemma]

I am not sure - but the restriction is in the Sectional Appendix, rather than Scotrail saying "we don't want them".

They are allowed as far as Kilmarnock empty - presumably to go to Hunslet-Barclay.

That's just because they haven't been cleared. It would be similar for 175s and 180s in Scotland but that doesn't mean they can't be used - it just means they need to be checked that they are OK to use there first.

319s aren't in the Sectional Appendix for any North West lines but they are still set to be used there in the next few years.

 

[Greenback]

To me, the problem appears to be the Council not knowing what they were doing and trying to get a cheap tender.

There have many instances of councils being completely out of their depth. I recall some problems with an IT project at Swansea COuncil a few years back...

Then when unforseen problems occured (such as problems moving gas/electricity/water supplies under ground - not much of a surprise given the rich history beneath Edinburgh's streets...) they try to get the contractors to pick up the tab for things, which causes stand-offs and delays things (before the council have to pay more for the work, pushing the costs up).

These sorts of problems should have been foreseen. The trouble is that contract disputes take an age to resolve and are very costly for both parties.

There's also the problem of them trying to do everything at once - if they'd just done the first part from the Airport to Edinburgh Park it'd be up and running already and they'd be able to have extended it to Haymarket by now (with further extensions to come). But, by digging up Princes Street, St Andrew Square, Leith Walk and the route to Ocean Terminal at the same time as the work in western Edinburgh, they've left themselves too thinly spread.

I never understood the approach tot he construction works. Building and opening the tram route in sections would have allowed the revenue flow to begin, and for teething problems witht he equipment to be ironed out.

Sadly because the people who specify big public schemes like this generally have little experience of such tenders, they don't know what to specify, don't know what contingencies to have and don't know how to manage contractors. Look at how much smarter GMPTE/TfGM are about tram extensions now (compared to the initial lines) - sadly I don't think anyone in Edinburgh will get the experience of a tender for a tram extension :roll:

Compare this to how efficiently Tesco will design/ build/ open a shop - because they know what they are doing.

You are correct. The main problem as I see it is that councils and other public sector organisations don't generally have the required expertise or experience to manage such projects properly. This is just as true for the government, as witnessed by the MoD finacial mismanagement.

Unfortunately, I don't have any solution tot he problem!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This BBC Story is slightly different, referring to £72mil which will be withheld by the Government if the line is terminated at Haymarket.