Edinburgh tram to be truncated to Haymarket in absence of £231M

[90019]

Apart from the possible exception of rail!

And the buses.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

The tram system originally envisaged would have been the jewel in Edinburgh's crown. Now we just have another two railway lines between the Airport and Haymarket.

Wonder how much it would have cost to open a station on one of the existing lines with a monorail to the terminal.

 

[T163R]

And the buses.

Not frequent enough, though.

 

[matchmaker]

Apparently it would be cheaper to cover the route in gold.........

http://www.iaindale.com/posts/paint-the-streets-gold?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[tbtc]

Out of the new systems, Sheffield is the one most on new alignments, it's only the Meadowhall line that is mostly on former heavy rail alighnment (most still in place but singled). Nottingham is mostly sharing the alighnment of the Robin Hood line, other than the final part into the city. Croyden, West Midlands and Manchester use large amounts of old railway, with Manchester re-using old track, stations and on the Altrincham line, OHLE. Edinburgh does have large amounts of new off street track, wheras the other systems are mostly using heavy rail alighnments for off street running. That should be cheaper and easier than street running though.

Sheffield and Nottingham both have short sections on the track bed of former railway lines, but neither directly replaced any train services, they just use some railway land to get to their destination (which the Edinburgh project also involves).

Manchester and Croydon were direct replacements of existing train routes with new "central" bits of route too (etc).

This is why any comparison between the early years of Sheffield and Manchester tends to be skewed, as the Manchester scheme had an existing rail market to build upon whilst the Sheffield market had to be grown from a base of zero.

The frustrating thing about the Edinburgh scheme is that it was a good idea on paper - I still believe that - horrendously managed of course, but (much like HS2) it did link a lot of the main places:

Airport
Gyle shopping centre
Edinburgh Park
Haymarket
St Andrew Square (*)
Leith
Ocean Terminal

If they'd built it one stage at a time it'd have worked okay, but the project management was shambolic

* - St Andrew, as in the Patron Saint of Scotland. St Andrews is the town in Fife (with an "s" on the end). If I had a pound for every time I saw the square referred to as St Andrews Square...
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The tram system originally envisaged would have been the jewel in Edinburgh's crown. Now we just have another two railway lines between the Airport and Haymarket

Thats an interesting point.

If they are giving up on the idea of ever running to St Andrew Square/ Leith/ Ocean Terminal then does that mean that there will be *no* street running?

In which case, could the line be converted to heavy rail?

(I'm sure the answer will be "no", but it'd have a lot of operational benefits if you could run EMUs to the Airport...)

 

[matchmaker]

And the buses.

And the guided buses?

 

[90019]

Not frequent enough, though.

What routes were you using :?
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And the guided buses?

If the busway had actually been surfaced properly, rather than done on the cheap like everything else, it would've been fine.

 

[142094]

Funnily enough there is the money for this shambles but none for some reopenings in England...

 

[snail]

Is there any tram system in the UK that has been built in the last 20 years where all the lines have been newly constructed opposed to converting some existing or disused railway lines and adding on extensions?

Parts of the current Manchester extensions are pretty extensive new build out to Ashton-under-Lyne and the Airport, as was the line through Salford Quays out to Eccles. They did, though, have the basic rail infrastructure to get things started to Bury and Altrincham (and now Chorlton/Didsbury)

 

[T163R]

What routes were you using :?

Well I mainly used route 48, among several others including 35, and I was impressed by the network (very good coverage, good quality everywhere, well managed...) but I sometimes had to wait more than 20 minutes for a bus, and they were often late. If only they had 2 sets of doors of their buses...

 

[pemma]

Parts of the current Manchester extensions are pretty extensive new build out to Ashton-under-Lyne and the Airport, as was the line through Salford Quays out to Eccles. They did, though, have the basic rail infrastructure to get things started to Bury and Altrincham (and now Chorlton/Didsbury)

Exactly. They just built a new section between around Cornbrook, Victoria and Piccadilly initially. It's taken them 20 years to add on the Eccles and Chorlton bits.

 

[90019]

Well I mainly used route 48, among several others including 35, and I was impressed by the network (very good coverage, good quality everywhere, well managed...) but I sometimes had to wait more than 20 minutes for a bus, and they were often late. If only they had 2 sets of doors of their buses...

They removed the centre doors because of fare evasion and a rise in false claims of drivers shutting doors on people. There are still a few buses left with centre doors, but not many.

The problems over the past few years with the timetabling has been because of the council f*cking about with the roads, closing off some roads, turning one way streets around, and especially the tramworks, which have made congestion in the city worse and made the buses less reliable.

It's a shame really, it seems almost like the council are deliberately making the roads in the city worse and in the process attempting to ruin the reputation of Lothian. Apparently it appears to be working, though personally I rarely have any problems when using the buses.

 

[snail]

Exactly. They just built a new section between around Cornbrook, Victoria and Piccadilly initially. It's taken them 20 years to add on the Eccles and Chorlton bits.

Not quite. Salford Quays opened in 1999, 7 years after the first lines, the 2 miles of on street track to Eccles took a further 2 years to finish. Chorlton so is a reopened ex-rail line, the new build Airport extension is going to take 5 years to complete.

 

[pemma]

Not quite. Salford Quays opened in 1999, 7 years after the first lines, the 2 miles of on street track to Eccles took a further 2 years to finish. Chorlton so is a reopened ex-rail line, the new build Airport extension is going to take 5 years to complete.

I was meaning it's taken them around 20 years to get to where they are now with 2 additional services over the original 2.

1999 was 10 years after the BR services were suspended for Metrolink conversion.

 

[ajdunlop]

What I don't understand is if they have laid track along Princess street and they are running as far as Haymarket what is still required to get to Waverley? Also is there no way they could cover the rails on Princess street so if the money was found later it could be extended?

 

[T163R]

What I don't understand is if they have laid track along Princess street and they are running as far as Haymarket what is still required to get to Waverley? Also is there no way they could cover the rails on Princess street so if the money was found later it could be extended?

You just need the stations and OHL (if they don't use GP). It will be as good to do the tram line to Waverley, of course !

 

[pemma]

What I don't understand is if they have laid track along Princess street and they are running as far as Haymarket what is still required to get to Waverley? Also is there no way they could cover the rails on Princess street so if the money was found later it could be extended?

What about tram-trains?

 

[T163R]

What about tram-trains?

What for ?

 

[90019]

What I don't understand is if they have laid track along Princess street and they are running as far as Haymarket what is still required to get to Waverley?

Because the track along Princes Street was laid a couple of years back, long before the decision was made to cut it back to Haymarket.

 

[WatcherZero]

What about a heavy rail station or link?

Was a plan to build a heavy rail terminus at the Airport on a short spur under the runway to the nearby lines but the incoming SNP Government cancelled it in 2007, would have cost £500m. They had spent £30m already when it was cancelled (So Scotlands got a habit of wasting money on lines).

Wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Airport_Rail_Link

And comprehensive website for project still up:
http://www.earlproject.com/project_overview.php

 

[pemma]

What for ?

To do Haymarket-Waverley on the heavy rail line if they aren't going to build the tram line in to the centre.

 

[exile]

Liverpool South Parkway cost £30m. Build a smaller copy of that on Turnhouse Road and a road tunnel under the runway to the airport terminal. Job done.

 

[T163R]

To do Haymarket-Waverley on the heavy rail line if they aren't going to build the tram line in to the centre.

That's hard work to do the link between Princes Street and the lines. And an additional cost for tram-trains JUST for Haymarket-Waverley ? oO

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have say how dissapointed I am following this announcement of what appears to be a compromise.
All that very disruptive work down Leith Walk. Redundant.
All that very disruptive work between Haymarket and Princes Street. Redundant.
All that very disruptive work along Princes Street. Redundant and now a liability.

I was content with the City's proposal a couple of months ago to cut back the scheme to a proposal for a reduced system - it was far from ideal, but would at least achieve some reasonable level of additional transport in parallel with Corstorphine Road (linking the Airport with the City) as well as some residential and business areas.
But to stop half a mile short of the City's main centre (in terms of retailling, transport interchanges, hotels, cultural facilities, commercial assets, visitor attractions) is a devastating loss of functionality.
The Haymarket is hardly the City Centre (and even the short walk to the cluster of law firms and accountancy firms will not be attractive in the cold dark and damp winter months).

There are few decisions that are worse than a compromise. One that is worse is simply stopping wherever you are when the money runs out!
There are interesting historical parallels with the onset of decline in great civilisations (eg the expansion of the Roman water & aqueduct system which simply ran out of money and could not be sustained.)

 

[Masboroughlad]

The Transport Secretary (for Scotland) should step in to ensure completion. The Edinburgh Council should be sacked. Idiotic decision.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that no-one on this thread has named the political parties involved in the proposal for the reduction in line length.

Has there been political points-scoring in this sorry affair?

 

[dalmahoyhill]

Utter stupidity!!!! Groan. This just compounds the disaster and frankly just seems like cheap politicking by labour and the tories to get one over the ruling parties. Thanks for nothing!

You save what £100mill in upfront costs but then are left with a complete white elephant that haemorrhages money. What were the revenues figures.?
+£4 mill per annum to princes street
-£3 mill to Haymarket.

The council still have to raise a loan to pay it to Haymarket and then still have to subsidise it. At least with Princess st option the revenue could have offset the loans.

So whole life cost over the full life of the tram will no doubt be more.

Oh and the health and safety costs for princess street are for ripping out the track that was already laid (badly I might add) and reinstating the road.

I was supportive of the tram but this is just a disaster. Plus as far as I can see it they have built the least useful section of the tram. Princess st down to Newhaven absolutely but to the airport I never understood. It follows the rail line out most of the way which already covers the area with Edinburgh park and South Gyle stations which both has frequent service. Plus the existing bus service to the airport is good and Glasgow road has extensive bus lanes so the congestion is never that bad.

I always thought Newhaven, Leith, Princess st, tollcross, morningside would have relieved the congestion pressure more.

Anyway I work in the construction industry and if you want my insight into why I think it went so badly wrong read this post. Hopefully it will all come out in a public enquiry.

 

[Greenback]

Your reasoning in the linked post makes a lot of sense.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a nasty 4 way battle between the parties in Scotland.

Labour Edinburgh Council proposed it with SNP local support
Labour-Lib Dem national government approved it
Incoming SNP government in 2007 tried unsucessfully to kill it like they killed many transport projects started by other parties, they did succeed in strangling its funding
Lib Dem-Labour council defended it from SNP/Conservative attempts to kill
Then Labour-Conservative manage to shorten it with SNP abstention over Labour-Green defence

 

[tom1649]

What a mess. Imagine what could have been achieved if the whole cost of the tramway so far had been put into the Scottish rail network and local bus services instead.