Eiretunnel

[jcevans]

Hi there,

Wondering what the practical implications of a high speed rail link connecting Dublin-Belfast-Glasgow-Edinburgh are? Obviously with some kind of tunnel between Portapatrick and Belfast Harbour...Ive noticed that the distance between these two points are less then that of the Channel tunnel.

You could potentially take a train connecting to the WCML / HS2 between Belfast and London in 4 hours.

Regards,

Jack

 

[gordonthemoron]

not enough population, not going to happen

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Plus you'd need to re-gauge one side of it, or have totally separate lines owing to the different guages in Britain (4ft 8.5in) and N / Rep of Ireland (5ft3in).

 

[Greenback]

It's a complete non starter I'm afraid. There would be absolutely no business case for such a scheme.

 

[102 fan]

And yet we have Stena ferries from Belfast and Larne port, Easyjet, Flybe and Aer Lingus flying from Belfast City and Belfast International - So there is a market.

 

[Greenback]

There is undoubtedly a market. There is a market for lots of flows, but that doesn't mean there would be sufficient businessto construct an undersea tunnel at huge expense, plus all the associated engineering works required for the gauge issues and the upgrades to the current lines to increase their speed.

There was a market for Concorde, but it still wasn't viable.

 

[jcevans]

I am surprised how isolated Belfast is from the mainland. The flights arent particuarly cheap considering and the ferries have all but stopped foot passengers.

 

[Yew]

Unfortunately I fear any money would be better spent on improving sailrail, and local infrastructure, than on a tunnel. Its possible that systematic process improvement could provide most of the benifits at a fraction of the cost.

There is a market, but I dont think there is such a market to spend billions of pounds on a tunnel.

 

[Liam]

considering and the ferries have all but stopped foot passengers.

Eh?

The last time I went across to Belfast earlier this year there were many foot passengers, I was one of them!

There are many buses connecting with almost every ferry into Cairnryan, both Stena and P&O to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Newcastle, London... Have a look on Ulsterbus website, they have a time table for all Cross Channel services. There is also the Stena RailSail bus to Ayr Railway Station and large car parks at both terminals which aren't particularly expensive for longer stays (£5/day or £25/week I seem to remember).

 

[Greenback]

and the ferries have all but stopped foot passengers.

I don't think that is right at all.

 

[bkhtele]

Unfortunately I fear any money would be better spent on improving sailrail, and local infrastructure, than on a tunnel. Its possible that systematic process improvement could provide most of the benifits at a fraction of the cost.

There is a market, but I dont think there is such a market to spend billions of pounds on a tunnel.

I agree, there is demand it is just the sail rail option is only about 50% as attractive as it could be. Delays at terminals, poor train connections, foot passengers barred from late ferries. Can't travel via P&O with Sail rail.

With clear accountability/ ownership and at a fraction of the investment required for a tunnel the journey could be an aternative for the plane.

Making purchasing the tickets easier would be a start, try purchasing a ticket on the Internet for a departure point outside London - this should be easy and available also at self service ticket machines.

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC it's also deeper then the Channel and the geology isn't very favourable for tunneling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And yet we have Stena ferries from Belfast and Larne port, Easyjet, Flybe and Aer Lingus flying from Belfast City and Belfast International - So there is a market.

An A319 holds about the same as a 156. A Q400 is about the same as a 153. I don't think there is as much volume as you think

 

[MattRobinson]

It's a nice idea, but you'd be better off improving services to the airports, TBH.

 

[PFX]

A fanciful, though not new, idea. It has been mooted in various forms as far back as 1895. More recently here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4121001.stm. Cost has been estimated anywhere between €11 - 20 BILLION so I wouldn't expect to see it any time soon.

The rail/sail option is a good idea but the connectivity is terrible. One example is the option of sailing Stena from Belfast to Cairnryan. Neither port is connected by rail and the bus connection from Cairnryan entails a ride up to Ayr station.

On the subject of airports (and I know this has been discussed before) all three airports in the north have rail lines passing them. The one at Derry Airport actually passes within 5m of the end of the runway so that trains are stopped by the airport tower when there is a plane due. The Bangor line runs parallel to, and within 200m of Belfast City terminal building and at one time was adjacent to the station before redevelopment.

The arguments given against, are that the demand isn't there and also the airport operators have a vested interest in the form of parking charges but I digress.

 

[gordonthemoron]

car parking at airports is not much use for inbound traffic, which I take into account when choosing which airport I will fly to, e.g. Memmingen is much better than Hahn as it has a nearby train station. So, if Northern Ireland airports are not catering for incoming tourist/business people, they will go elsewhere

 

[citybus]

The Derry train line may be beside the runway but it is not convenient to the terminal. Quite why the Belfast City Airport wasn't forced to fund a new rail halt as part of a Planning Gain agreement is anyone's guess.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

The Derry train line may be beside the runway but it is not convenient to the terminal. Quite why the Belfast City Airport wasn't forced to fund a new rail halt as part of a Planning Gain agreement is anyone's guess.

Parking.

The City Airport makes a mint out of its carpark and so was actively hostile to developing a rail halt.

However at a meeting given by a senior Translink official he believes that the carpark capacity is now so saturated that it's impinging the development of the airport and they may not be much more favourable to a new rail halt and walkway directly into the terminal.

We are also treated by the usual nonsense thrown at us by the DRD civil servants that says that the airport needs around 15million passengers through it to make any service viable. In the case of Belfast City this is a nonsense, as the figures quoted are most likely for a dedicated service and not simply tieing in with an existing service. Likewise and service at Aldergrove would or should have commuter services to Crumlin, Glenavy and Ballinderry.

It is interesting to note that the Belfast International airport WANTS a rail link built between 2016 and 2030: • A passenger rail connection to the Airport.

 

[gordonthemoron]

having used Belfast International in the past, I wouldn't use it again out of choice because it doesn't have a rail link, same for Dublin. Whereas, I usually will choose Manchester and Stansted because they do have train services

 

[WestCoast]

having used Belfast International in the past, I wouldn't use it again out of choice because it doesn't have a rail link, same for Dublin. Whereas, I usually will choose Manchester and Stansted because they do have train services

You don't have much choice though in Ireland though?

Some rail links are more useful than others. Dublin Airport is very well connected by bus and coach services, heading in most directions. You have a choice of a luxury coach, an express bus and a local bus (with appropriate pricing) to get to multiple points in the City Centre and other areas as well.

Heathrow, has a rail link, but it's not especially useful for heading west. Hence the coaches and buses that link to Slough / Reading / Staines.

 

[Greenback]

You don't have much choice though in Ireland though?

Some rail links are more useful than others. Dublin Airport is very well connected by bus and coach services, heading in most directions. You have a choice of a luxury coach, an express bus and a local bus (with appropriate pricing) to get to multiple points in the City Centre and other areas as well.

Heathrow, has a rail link, but it's not especially useful for heading west. Hence the coaches and buses that link to Slough / Reading / Staines.

Rail is only a viable solution for large airports. Smaller airports, such as Belfast and Dublin, can be quite happily served by coach and bus.

I've travelled on quite a few dedicated airport coach links outside the UK and I found them all very reliable and comfortable.

 

[WestCoast]

Rail is only a viable solution for large airports. Smaller airports, such as Belfast and Dublin, can be quite happily served by coach and bus..

I wouldn't say Dublin Airport was particularly small, 18 million passengers used it last year. That is roughly the same amount as London Stansted and Manchester, which are the 4th and 3rd busiest airports respectively in the UK.

While the bus/coach services are sufficient, it's a shame that the plans for Dublin's Metro North are stalled at the moment. Whatever happened to the proposed DART spur as well?

 

[Greenback]

Small was the wrong word to use! I should have said hub and regional type airports.

 

[citybus]

Parking.

The City Airport makes a mint out of its carpark and so was actively hostile to developing a rail halt.

However at a meeting given by a senior Translink official he believes that the carpark capacity is now so saturated that it's impinging the development of the airport and they may not be much more favourable to a new rail halt and walkway directly into the terminal.

We are also treated by the usual nonsense thrown at us by the DRD civil servants that says that the airport needs around 15million passengers through it to make any service viable. In the case of Belfast City this is a nonsense, as the figures quoted are most likely for a dedicated service and not simply tieing in with an existing service. Likewise and service at Aldergrove would or should have commuter services to Crumlin, Glenavy and Ballinderry.

It is interesting to note that the Belfast International airport WANTS a rail link built between 2016 and 2030: • A passenger rail connection to the Airport.

Whether City Airport wants a halt to be built or not, the Planning Service should have made it a condition of their planning application (for the new terminal) that they wouldn't get permission if they didn't partly fund a new halt. This is called Planning Gain. I'm sure the Tesco nearby was forced to pay for the new road junction when they built their store, so there is a precedence for it in NI.

As for City Airport not wanting a train connection, they don't have any issue with the buses accessing the site so they have little reason to fear a train every hour. And as you rightly point out a new halt isn't going to cost an arm & a leg, and in terms of passenger numbers would be much more lucrative than the likes of Marino.

 

[Cyberbeagle]

Whether City Airport wants a halt to be built or not, the Planning Service should have made it a condition of their planning application (for the new terminal) that they wouldn't get permission if they didn't partly fund a new halt. This is called Planning Gain. I'm sure the Tesco nearby was forced to pay for the new road junction when they built their store, so there is a precedence for it in NI.

As for City Airport not wanting a train connection, they don't have any issue with the buses accessing the site so they have little reason to fear a train every hour. And as you rightly point out a new halt isn't going to cost an arm & a leg, and in terms of passenger numbers would be much more lucrative than the likes of Marino.

They probably successfully argued that Sydenham would still fulfill that role, and it's possible Translink didn't really want it either, being so close to Sydenham. With the CAF's higher rate of acceleration compared to the Class 80s and 450s I believe this is no longer a factor and Translink top brass are favourable to a halt now. Don't forget Translink wasn't all that old when the terminus was moved and virtually all the NIR top brass replaced with Ulsterbus staff, so not surprising in both Aldergrove and the City Airport there's a bus and not rail.

Be interesting what could be dug up on this topic out of the planning service...

Just a thought... if Translink and Aldergrove had had their thinking caps on in the late 90s they could've opened a halt on the Crumlin line then, which probably would've kept that line open...

 

[PFX]

Being purely speculative, if there were a City halt and Sydenham was retained, it would make sense to have a limited stop 'express' calling at City, with other services missing the airport out. Belfast, City, Holywood, Bangor for example.

 

[citybus]

While it isn't ideal to have two stops so close together, they wouldn't be as close as Carrick & Clipperstown. It's worth remembering that it's the Bangor & Holywood residents who need the airport stop the most, Belfast at least already has some form of public transport to the airport. One of the issues with the Bangor line is that it has little relevance for Belfast residents, same with the Carrick line really.

 

[D365]

Wouldn't Dublin-Holyhead and an upgraded A55/North of Wales Line, or even a HS3 connecting to HS2, be more viable?

 

[WestCoast]

Wouldn't Dublin-Holyhead and an upgraded A55/North of Wales Line, or even a HS3 connecting to HS2, be more viable?

Holyhead to Dun Laoghaire would involve a tunnel of over 70 miles, more than double the length of the Channel Tunnel. I think it would be difficult to justify that sort of investment for a population of 'just' five million people on the Emerald Isle. Even in the good times, when the ROI was doing really well economically, a tunnel has never seriously been considered.

In theory, there is however the option of trains being loaded onto the ferries, a very underused method in Europe (the only example I can think of being the Rødby-Puttgarden ferry between Germany and Denmark which now sees ICEs loaded on). A further issue is of course the gauge difference between Ireland and mainland Britain, that's not insurmountable either, but in the end the added cost and hassle doesn't seem worth it.

 

[PFX]

A further issue is of course the gauge difference between Ireland and mainland Britain, that's not insurmountable either, but in the end the added cost and hassle doesn't seem worth it.

The cost would make that a non-starter regardless of how good the times are. It would mean re-gauging every line in Ireland or designing some fangled dual gauge bogie. Remember also that the loading gauge is a bit more generous the narrow gauge used in the UK ; )

 

[citybus]

IIRC the Sicily train does or did go on the ferry to Italy. In any case Ireland would be better served by express train lines to the Belfast and Dublin ports, and improved train lines from Holyhead and Stranraer to the big English and Scottish cities that tourists actually want to go to. Its a pity there isnt an EU grant available to spur this on.