Electrification "workstream"

[L+Y]

You quite often see discussed here the idea that electrification costs have increased sharply vs BR days because of the relative drought in new projects between c1995 and 2010, which led to a collapse in skills.

All that seems reasonable: but with electrification projects now having been ongoing essentially continuously since 2010, how has the skills base and supply chain developed, and are we at a point where the industry once again has the experience to be delivering major cost savings?

Or if not- was the whole argument about the 1995-2010 electrification drought flawed?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don't have the answer to your question but judging by a few of the people I follow on twitter constantly complaining that the RNEP (Rail Network Enhancements Pipeline) has not been published in forever, when transparency was promised, I don't think this issue has been resolved (certainly not fully)

 

[Brissle Girl]

You quite often see discussed here the idea that electrification costs have increased sharply vs BR days because of the relative drought in new projects between c1995 and 2010, which led to a collapse in skills.

All that seems reasonable: but with electrification projects now having been ongoing essentially continuously since 2010.

With the best will in the world, I don't think you can describe inching up the MML at around 10 miles a year, with a couple of scraps in the North "continuously" in the post GWML electrification period. Certainly not in the context of having enough skilled people for the type of projects that are needed to make any meaningful impact in the railway's carbon footprint.

 

[Bald Rick]

With the best will in the world, I don't think you can describe inching up the MML at around 10 miles a year, with a couple of scraps in the North "continuously" in the post GWML electrification period. Certainly not in the context of having enough skilled people for the type of projects that are needed to make any meaningful impact in the railway's carbon footprint.

That rather underpresents the amount of electrification in the country since 2010. Plenty in Scotland (including Airdrie - Bathgate), plus the GEML renewal which was effectively a re-electrification from London to Chelmsford and Southend, the NLL upgrade, plus Crossrail, Barking Riverside, Bromsgrove, Rugeley, all the phases of the North West, Colton - Church Fenton, Meridian Water, etc. Some of these are small projects, but it all adds up, and all needs OLE design and installation resource.

 

[snowball]

Yes but there has not been much continuity between the round of electrifications that ended in 2018-20 and those of today. Even in Scotland, where there's the best promise of a rolling programme in the next 10-20 years, they dropped the baton for a few years. Presumably the teams broke up. They are now having to build up the momentum again, and are still well short of the rate of work that they will need in order to get near to meeting their published objective.

In England the MML is only being drip-fed and there's no guarantee of a rolling programme to encourage suppliers to invest.

The Cardiff Valleys seems to be an encouragingly substantial programme but I fear that as it approaches completion there will be no successor scheme for the workers to move to.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Which bit of "in the post GWML electrification period" did you not understand. Do you think companies or indeed employees/contractors will just sit around for 5 years or so twiddling their thumbs or fight it out amongst themselves for the scraps available.

A to B finished in 2010.
Bromsgrove: 4 miles
Barking Riverside: 1 mile.
Meridian Water: <1 mile?

As I said, scraps.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even in Scotland, where there's the best promise of a rolling programme in the next 10-20 years, they dropped the baton for a few years. Presumably the teams broke up.

There were two teams. One went on to the MML. The other went home to Italy. Some of the team stayed on to become the maintainers - looking after what they built. The best people to do so.

Which bit of "in the post GWML electrification period" did you not understand. Do you think companies or indeed employees/contractors will just sit around for 5 years or so twiddling their thumbs or fight it out amongst themselves for the scraps available.

A to B finished in 2010.
Bromsgrove: 4 miles
Barking Riverside: 1 mile.
Meridian Water: <1 mile?

As I said, scraps.

but the original point was about work since 2010:

All that seems reasonable: but with electrification projects now having been ongoing essentially continuously since 2010,

and there has been plenty of electrification work since then. I see the OLE resource sheets and it has been busy since then, and in the last few years too. The designers have been busy on MML, TPE, HS2 (believe it or not) and some other projects. The installation resource was busy, very, on the MML, and has been subsequently redeployed on the MML work south of Bedford as well north of Kettering, plus various other renewal / enhancement jobs.

I‘m not saying it’s perfect, but it is absolutely not the case that all the knowledge has been lost and needs to be relearned.

 

[Brissle Girl]

but the original point was about work since 2010:

It’s not inconsistent with the original post, which talked about consistently since 2010, to make an observation about a period since the end of the GW electrification, now around 5 years, when, (admittedly imo) there hasn’t been much at all.

Any gap since 2010 contradicts the statement made.

 

[WAO]

As Bald Rick says there has been plenty of work in this field even if there's not that much evident extension of the system yet. The existing main line electrification has had to be considerably renewed with stronger AT power supplies to cater for the large increase in traffic, speed and in installed traction MW, improved fault detection and response, removing BT systems, upgraded replacements, re-tensioning, portals replacing headspans etc.

The creeping electrification of the MML (now only to be 3 miles short of Leicester) and in the NW is only possible because of the work gone on elsewhere.

WAO

 

[EllieAquitrain]

There's also been GOBLIN electrification!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Quite a few bits of station, junction and depot remodelling might not increase the number of electrified route miles but need design and installation work. Cambridge stabling, King’s Cross, Leeds West End, Werrington, Carstairs, Springs Branch, Brent Cross, Stevenage and Watford North Junction reinstatement come to mind.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Quite a few bits of station, junction and depot remodelling might not increase the number of electrified route miles but need design and installation work.
.......Springs Branch.........

I was amazed when I went past there in the last few months on the way back from Manchester Airport to Preston. There is quite a considerable amount of OLE that has gone in.

 

[59CosG95]

A small amount of OLE resource is also present in NR Works Delivery teams, and their associated work to improve reliability, resilience etc.; although this normally dovetails with NR maintenance teams, they do sometimes subcontract labour and plant in.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There had been very little electrification after 1966 yet BR and its suppliers mobilised in 1970 readily and built out 168 route miles in four years. What was different then?

 

[Wtloild]

There had been very little electrification after 1966 yet BR and its suppliers mobilised in 1970 readily and built out 168 route miles in four years. What was different then?

Were the 70s & 80s electrifications up to Scotland simpler due relative to lack of tunnels, stations, bridges & junctions (relative to the recent Great Western, North West & Transpennine electrifications)?

 

[paul1609]

With the demonstrable frail nature of ohl electrification in the climate change environment shouldn't orr/ network rail be prioritising proper dc third rail electrification of marshlink/Uckfield/North downs/Basingstoke Exeter?

 

[Efini92]

There had been very little electrification after 1966 yet BR and its suppliers mobilised in 1970 readily and built out 168 route miles in four years. What was different then?

The health and safety at work act hadn’t come in

 

[GRALISTAIR]

With the demonstrable frail nature of ohl electrification in the climate change environment shouldn't orr/ network rail be prioritising proper dc third rail electrification of marshlink/Uckfield/North downs/Basingstoke Exeter?

No. It can be allowed for on OHL.

 

[Bald Rick]

With the demonstrable frail nature of ohl electrification in the climate change environment shouldn't orr/ network rail be prioritising proper dc third rail electrification of marshlink/Uckfield/North downs/Basingstoke Exeter?

quite a lot of con rail had ‘a moment’ on Monday / Tuesday too!

 

[RedPostJunc]

Which bit of "in the post GWML electrification period" did you not understand. Do you think companies or indeed employees/contractors will just sit around for 5 years or so twiddling their thumbs or fight it out amongst themselves for the scraps available.

A to B finished in 2010.
Bromsgrove: 4 miles
Barking Riverside: 1 mile.
Meridian Water: <1 mile?

As I said, scraps.

Crossrail.

Are there any current plans to extend GWML electrification?

 

[snowball]

Crossrail.

Are there any current plans to extend GWML electrification?

Nothing government-approved as far as I know. The August Modern Railways has a multi-page feature on the Great Western, in which pages 60-61 describe a Network Rail pipe-dream plan to decarbonise the entire region in 6 stages, but with no identified funding.

 

[td97]

Are there any current plans to extend GWML electrification?

Atkins are doing studies to determine clearance work required (if any) on "problem" overbridges. Definitely includes Didcot to Oxford and Chippenham to Temple Meads (and presumably includes Parkway to Temple Meads).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The health and safety at work act hadn’t come in

Yes but it had by the time ECML came along and they delivered even more route mileage in the same timeframe.

quite a lot of con rail had ‘a moment’ on Monday / Tuesday too!

thing with con rail is even if its displaced it can be battered back into alignment very quickly unlike OLE which took ages to sort out down near Hatch End on WCML. Mind you that was another example of NR failing to manage trees close to the OLE.

 

[Snow1964]

Atkins are doing studies to determine clearance work required (if any) on "problem" overbridges. Definitely includes Didcot to Oxford and Chippenham to Temple Meads (and presumably includes Parkway to Temple Meads).

I thought many (if not all) the problem bridges between Chippenham and Bristol were done about 5 years ago (Corsham aquaduct, Box tunnel track lowering, Shockerwick footbridge etc), and since then the low signal gantries at Bristol would have been sorted during the remodelling and resignalling last year.

 

[Efini92]

Yes but it had by the time ECML came along and they delivered even more route mileage in the same timeframe.

Isn’t that down to the BRB having engineers on it with experience wiring railways?

 

[Snow1964]

There had been very little electrification after 1966 yet BR and its suppliers mobilised in 1970 readily and built out 168 route miles in four years. What was different then?

Didn’t electrification continue until 1967 in Birmingham and Gourock area etc. The Weaver Juncation- Glasgow scheme was authorised in March 1970

Probably had lot more in house staff doing the work, so easier to reassemble the teams, and being experienced didn’t need long learning curve that would happen nowadays. Probably working within weeks, whereas now could take year or two to muster all the equipment and trained staff.

 

[td97]

I thought many (if not all) the problem bridges between Chippenham and Bristol were done about 5 years ago

Unfortunately not.
One such example is here
Pixash Ln

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Didn’t electrification continue until 1967 in Birmingham and Gourock area etc. The Weaver Juncation- Glasgow scheme was authorised in March 1970

Probably had lot more in house staff doing the work, so easier to reassemble the teams, and being experienced didn’t need long learning curve that would happen nowadays. Probably working within weeks, whereas now could take year or two to muster all the equipment and trained staff.

BICC (merged into Balfour Beatty during the project) played a big part in installing the Weaver Jcn - Motherwell scheme with a three year gap between major schemes also in an era when businesses were far ruthless about getting rid of staff. They were in the same position as todays teams are albeit they could people trained up far quicker in those days and for sure H&S was less of a priority as much of it was done off the top of old coaches or ladders. Today we have far more plant available to support both safe working and higher efficiency yet we aren't realising levels of productivity achieved in the 1970/80's.