Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'

[Lifelong]

I agree with the sentiments suggesting this is a made up story really. I use the EL 3/4 times a week and have had one delayed journey, and have saved hours (already) off my journey.

I feel that this will have been covered at some stage, so apologies in advance. Will the dwell times be reduced from May. For me it’s these that are stopping the whole experience from being optimal.

 

[Class 170101]

Is there a two hourly night service already on the gwml

Not Saturday night nor probably on Sunday night but check Real Time Trains

 

[43066]

I must be the only person who really likes the Elizabeth Line architecture, it's functional and modern.

Have to say, there are people here who are trying to paint the EL as a failure which is wrong IMO

Same here. All the evidence shows it’s an unmitigated success! Much of it is just the usual moaning for the sake of it/dislike of anything new.

One thing I find hasn’t worked well is the way the stations are laid out dumping people at the extreme ends of the platforms, which unfortunately isn’t something which will ever be able to fixed. There seems to be a big issue with the ends of the trains and platforms becoming crowded.

Although I do agree with this… Exactly as you say, though, I doubt anything could have been done differently given the engineering constraints.

 

[AM9]

Although I do agree with this… Exactly as you say, though, I doubt anything could have been done differently given the engineering constraints.

Maybe if the 'tube' stations had a central pedestrian tunnel between the two platforms with a transverse feeder or two to the platforms, in times of end-car overload, the end accesses could have been closed. That could be done at the box layout stops with extended fencing.

 

[Horizon22]

Although RfLI maintenance staff were also on an RMT strike yesterday!

They weren't, but apparently there's action short of a strike until 28th (work to rule stuff).

There does seem to have been a strategy of looking at what the Victoria Line did in the 1960s, and doing the opposite.

- Individual decoration of stations, some appropriate to their locality, given up for the same colour scheme everywhere.

There are nods to all sort of local infrastructure - you've got the "diamond" stuff at Farringdon, and the pillars at Woolwich are the colours of the Royal Artillery and Engineers. However you can't argue it is largely functional, but that will no doubt assist in it longevity and still look new in several years time

- Platform entrances at different points deliberately calculated with the expected passenger flow to balance loads up and down the train, given up for entrances in the core at the extreme ends, which now added with people hanging around for their desired through train physically prevents walking through the throng to the less-busy middle.

Some stations - Farringdon and Liverpool Street - are positioned to be between two entrances so that is unavoidable. I also think it is structurally easier and avoids less central crush. If people could be encoraged to spread down that's great but people are creatures of habit. Ever compared the rear to the front of a train at a terminus for instance?

- Cross platform interchange with other lines, given up for tortuous passages ending up facing where you got off a few minutes ago (Custom House, Abbey Wood, looking at you).

- Minimised walking distances given up for the opposite. Custom House, where the entrance and DLR platforms have the huge Eliz substation put just where the platforms should be, and the latter pushed 1/4 mile to the east, instead of the other way round. I do wonder if the builders were given the drawings in reverse.

Not sure how Abbey Wood is "torturous" - its literally an overbridge? Not sure how you'd ever have cross platform interchange from the London-bound side.

I do find some people like to complain about anything and everything - compared to much of the rest of the railway or even the London Underground, it seems some people will never be satisfied!

They didn’t used to sit on a train that’s just terminated wondering why it’s not continuing on into central London as I witnessed yesterday. That’s new.

The PIS on board an Elizabeth line really couldn't be much clearer. There's a diagram and it constantly repeats back to the destination, not to mention the information on the station. So some people must be completely oblivious or be in some sort of automatic mode.

 

[Mojo]

They weren't, but apparently there's action short of a strike until 28th (work to rule stuff).

One of my ex colleagues works for them and said they were on strike, RMT website also confirms: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/elizabeth-line-maintenance-workers-to-take-24-hours-strike/.

This was just maintenance staff rather than the whole control room team like last time.

 

[bramling]

I must be the only person who really likes the Elizabeth Line architecture, it's functional and modern.

Have to say, there are people here who are trying to paint the EL as a failure which is wrong IMO

I wouldn’t say anyone’s making out it’s a failure. But it does seem rather remiss to put the entrances at the extreme ends, something which has always been known to cause issues. There was clearly recognition of this as the trains were specified with all longitudinal seating in the end cars, so it almost seems like it was known to be likely to cause issues yet was gone ahead with anyway.

Not that Crossrail is the only recent piece of new London railway to have done this; Battersea Power Station station is the same, and that doesn’t work well either. Here the front car can be crush loaded whilst the rest of the train is fairly empty, which then causes issues when people come off the escalators just as the train is preparing to leave and panic when it’s too crowded to board the one car next to the escalators. Anyone with some experience could have predicted this.

 

[Class 170101]

West beyond Paddington should not be impossible: there has been for many years an overnight local service between Reading and Paddington, running roughly every two hours.

The issue will be the junction coming out of the tunnel on to the GWML and how that junction would be maintained if the current overnight trains came out of the tunnel instead of Paddington High Level as per now. Remember coming out of Paddington High Level you can be on either the low or High numbered platforms and the Mains or Reliefs and not crossover so effectively each pair of lines can be maintained alternately.

 

[bramling]

Same here. All the evidence shows it’s an unmitigated success! Much of it is just the usual moaning for the sake of it/dislike of anything new.

I never have an objection to genuinely new things. What I dislike is when someone takes something which already exists and wrecks it. Which can range from a hideous station refurbishment (plenty of those on TFL since the PPP), to the Thameslink Programme.

Although I do agree with this… Exactly as you say, though, I doubt anything could have been done differently given the engineering constraints.

Given that Crossrail seems to have been designed with walking fitness in mind, if the various central tunnels had been pushed slightly further (albeit I realise at cost) then this would have distributed things a little better. Perhaps there will be an element of improvement if the trains are ever lengthened, this certainly helped on the Jubilee Line Extension which is another one where the end cars can fill up disproportionately, though nowhere near as bad.

 

[Starmill]

The issue will be the junction coming out of the tunnel on to the GWML and how that junction would be maintained if the current overnight trains came out of the tunnel instead of Paddington High Level as per now. Remember coming out of Paddington High Level you can be on either the low or High numbered platforms and the Mains or Reliefs and not crossover so effectively each pair of lines can be maintained alternately.

The overnight trains do not run on Saturday night after the 0034, so it would only be joining that one service up. Any other additional services would also only be Friday and Saturday nights.

 

[Taunton]

NR are unlikely to ever allow the line to run to Shenfield or west beyond Paddington due to their maintenance works.

Funny how BR used to manage this without issue, and every night, not just Fri/Sat. Trains were extensively used by rail staff going on/off shift. This is 1982.

 

[Thirteen]

One of my ex colleagues works for them and said they were on strike, RMT website also confirms: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/elizabeth-line-maintenance-workers-to-take-24-hours-strike/.

This was just maintenance staff rather than the whole control room team like last time.

I find it strange that they went on strike on a day when the Central section wasn't open.

 

[43066]

I never have an objection to genuinely new things. What I dislike is when someone takes something which already exists and wrecks it. Which can range from a hideous station refurbishment (plenty of those on TFL since the PPP), to the Thameslink Programme.

Yes that’s true, and that comment wasn’t directed at you.

I do sense an element of automatic criticism of anything new and a tendency to hark back to an imaginary golden era amongst some posters, perfectly demonstrated by the “BR used to manage it comment” just above this post .

 

[Thirteen]

Yes that’s true, and that comment wasn’t directed at you.

I do sense an element of automatic criticism of anything new and a tendency to hark back to an imaginary golden era amongst some posters, perfectly demonstrated by the “BR used to manage it comment” just above this post .

The Class 777 thread is a good example of this, there are some who think that they should just keep the old trains just because they don't like the new trains.

 

[Horizon22]

One of my ex colleagues works for them and said they were on strike, RMT website also confirms: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/elizabeth-line-maintenance-workers-to-take-24-hours-strike/.

This was just maintenance staff rather than the whole control room team like last time.

Ah that was kept very quiet then.

The issue will be the junction coming out of the tunnel on to the GWML and how that junction would be maintained if the current overnight trains came out of the tunnel instead of Paddington High Level as per now. Remember coming out of Paddington High Level you can be on either the low or High numbered platforms and the Mains or Reliefs and not crossover so effectively each pair of lines can be maintained alternately.

Late night trains already run from High Level Paddington, so that's nothing different. However in May '23 timetable, this practice seems to end. So this would have to be a special practice for just a couple of trains. I suppose this service could theoretically continue to Reading and do overnight work, or one of the trains heading to Old Oak Common (like this.)

 

[Dr Hoo]

I never have an objection to genuinely new things. What I dislike is when someone takes something which already exists and wrecks it. Which can range from a hideous station refurbishment (plenty of those on TFL since the PPP), to the Thameslink Programme.

Yes that’s true, and that comment wasn’t directed at you.

I do sense an element of automatic criticism of anything new and a tendency to hark back to an imaginary golden era amongst some posters, perfectly demonstrated by the “BR used to manage it comment” just above this post .

As someone who started my BR career working on the nice, self-contained Bedford-St Pancras/Moorgate electrification and later moved to the nice, self-contained Southern (South Eastern Division); surely it was BR who 'started the rot' by allowing the 1980s incarnation of Thameslink (actually a GLC/Ken Livingstone-promoted scheme for more suburban traffic originally) in the first place?

 

[Class 170101]

Funny how BR used to manage this without issue, and every night, not just Fri/Sat. Trains were extensively used by rail staff going on/off shift. This is 1982.

As I'm sure has been mentioned before Health and Safety rules / laws have changed since then.

Late night trains already run from High Level Paddington, so that's nothing different. However in May '23 timetable, this practice seems to end. So this would have to be a special practice for just a couple of trains. I suppose this service could theoretically continue to Reading and do overnight work, or one of the trains heading to Old Oak Common (like this.)

Wasn't that discussed before, I think it was East drivers wouldn't sign Paddington High Level and only west drivers will continue to do so.

Still some MTR services in May 23 operating to / from Paddington High Level early morning and late at night once the tunnel closes.

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Paddington between 2330 and 0605 on 24/05/2023

Train information at London Paddington between 2330 and 0605 on 24/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[bramling]

Yes that’s true, and that comment wasn’t directed at you.

I do sense an element of automatic criticism of anything new and a tendency to hark back to an imaginary golden era amongst some posters, perfectly demonstrated by the “BR used to manage it comment” just above this post .

To be fair, I was party to a discussion on Friday when a signal failure some 15-20 years ago was being discussed, with recollection of someone standing in freezing weather and pouring rain at a signal post authorising trains past, a scene out of Victorian times. Yet this was being compared favourably with today’s equivalent of a failure where the root cause has to be sent over to software engineers in Canada, no doubt at immense cost, to devise a “fix” (which in many cases ends up returning as a “workaround” rather than proper solution). We agreed we’d all rather go back to the days of being freezing cold and soaking wet at a signal post!

I do tend to be of the view that Crossrail has been better thought through that the Thameslink Programme.

As someone who started my BR career working on the nice, self-contained Bedford-St Pancras/Moorgate electrification and later moved to the nice, self-contained Southern (South Eastern Division); surely it was BR who 'started the rot' by allowing the 1980s incarnation of Thameslink (actually a GLC/Ken Livingstone-promoted scheme for more suburban traffic originally) in the first place?

The difference with the latter was it didn’t affect my own personal local rail service! Having said that, I did use the 1990s version of Thameslink for a few years - which wasn’t a particularly pleasant experience. In theory the off-peak St Albans service in those days was a 4tph fast service non-stop from King’s Cross Thameslink to St Albans taking approximately 20 minutes, yet a good proportion of the time one was waiting on the platform for a *lot* longer than 15 minutes.

 

[LLivery]

I must be the only person who really likes the Elizabeth Line architecture, it's functional and modern.

Have to say, there are people here who are trying to paint the EL as a failure which is wrong IMO

Wouldn't ever say the EL is a failure, but not a big fan of the grey architecture at all either. It is soulless and is already aging poorly. This bare concrete style ages badly wherever it is. On the EL core, you can already see imprints of people on the walls where the benches are. And any kind of marks on the walls looks very difficult (expensive) to clean too. After all these years of having easy clean panels on the Underground, I fail to see why on earth they thought this was a good idea.

 

[Horizon22]

Wasn't that discussed before, I think it was East drivers wouldn't sign Paddington High Level and only west drivers will continue to do so.

Still some MTR services in May 23 operating to / from Paddington High Level early morning and late at night once the tunnel closes.

Realtime Trains | Departures from London Paddington between 2330 and 0605 on 24/05/2023

Train information at London Paddington between 2330 and 0605 on 24/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I think that's being looked at as the diversionary knowledge is certainly important during disruption. Still going to be some that don't sign, but maybe less than before.

I can see early mornings, but no late night departures (there are arrivals to go ECS).

 

[Taunton]

a tendency to hark back to an imaginary golden era amongst some posters, perfectly demonstrated by the “BR used to manage it comment” just above this post .

One does wonder what can be imaginary about something timetabled and reliably achieved by BR each night throughout its existence, and relied upon by night workers, but which is now found impossible.

 

[zwk500]

what can be imaginary about something reliably achieved by BR.

Stop and read this sentence again.

 

[Krokodil]

As I'm sure has been mentioned before Health and Safety rules / laws have changed since then.

It's a four track mainline. There isn't much work that couldn't be done with two of them remaining open. Even if you omit the stops which are only available on the reliefs.

 

[mrmartin]

Wouldn't ever say the EL is a failure, but not a big fan of the grey architecture at all either. It is soulless and is already aging poorly. This bare concrete style ages badly wherever it is. On the EL core, you can already see imprints of people on the walls where the benches are. And any kind of marks on the walls looks very difficult (expensive) to clean too. After all these years of having easy clean panels on the Underground, I fail to see why on earth they thought this was a good idea.

Yes, really would agree with you. It is already pretty dirty and as you say concrete is extremely hard to clean. God knows how poor it will look in 10-20 years; I expect extremely badly. Wouldn't be surprised if tiling or similar is added in places.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

By the way why is the Victoria line an exemplar of spreading passengers along the platform? Victoria, Euston, King’s Cross, and Highbury and Islington are all south exits and entrances. Even now, after £500m or so rebuilding Victoria the front carriage is always very full and the rear ones much more empty, esp going south. Going north is better only because passengers are sent the long way round to the middle of the platform. And the platforms themselves are far too narrow, as opposed to the Elizabeth Line.

And how could one design cross platform interchanges at core stations? It’s like the Jubilee line, they just don’t work if the lines come in at wildly different angles.

 

[43066]

As someone who started my BR career working on the nice, self-contained Bedford-St Pancras/Moorgate electrification

A slap on the wrist there for only making the wires 100mph capable .

 

[Richardr]

By the way why is the Victoria line an exemplar of spreading passengers along the platform? Victoria, Euston, King’s Cross, and Highbury and Islington are all south exits and entrances. Even now, after £500m or so rebuilding Victoria the front carriage is always very full and the rear ones much more empty, esp going south. Going north is better only because passengers are sent the long way round to the middle of the platform. And the platforms themselves are far too narrow, as opposed to the Elizabeth Line.

And how could one design cross platform interchanges at core stations? It’s like the Jubilee line, they just don’t work if the lines come in at wildly different angles.

Not disagreeing with your point, but isn't Kings Cross St Pancras both North and South? Exits either end these days that both lead toward Kings Cross.

 

[matt_world2004]

Wouldn't ever say the EL is a failure, but not a big fan of the grey architecture at all either. It is soulless and is already aging poorly. This bare concrete style ages badly wherever it is. On the EL core, you can already see imprints of people on the walls where the benches are. And any kind of marks on the walls looks very difficult (expensive) to clean too. After all these years of having easy clean panels on the Underground, I fail to see why on earth they thought this was a good ididea

I'm surprised they went with bare walls too because they become a canvas for graffiti artists

 

[Techniquest]

I must be the only person who really likes the Elizabeth Line architecture, it's functional and modern.

Not so, I love it and have done since I first set foot on the XR station in Woolwich

 

[LLivery]

Yes, really would agree with you. It is already pretty dirty and as you say concrete is extremely hard to clean. God knows how poor it will look in 10-20 years; I expect extremely badly. Wouldn't be surprised if tiling or similar is added in places.

I'd hope they'd use some of the unexpected extra revenue to fund some tiling at least where the marks are already showing, but I'm betting not any time soon.

I'm surprised they went with bare walls too because they become a canvas for graffiti artists

Someone already sprayed one of the panels in the core - can't remember which station and Bermondsey flyover was unbelievable... I can't talk for other parts of London, but there's been an increase in tagging in my part of South London in the past few weeks. No idea why all of a sudden, but it's on walls, fences, shop windows, street signs, etc, I hope it doesn't make its way onto the transport network too.