Elizabeth line reliability issues

[Leisurefirst]

Seems to be major reliability problems on EL recently, maybe related to the recent software update. 3 failed trains I think today and yesterday.

Also today there was no passenger information systems working whatsoever when I was on it this afternoon, either above the platform doors or in the station entrances, which seems mad given there was live data on RTT available!

I changed from the Northern Line to the EL at Tottenham Court Road yesterday afternoon bound for Stratford and was somewhat annoyed to see the first three trains due were all for Abbey Wood and no Shenfield (4th train due) for 17 minutes.
Luckily for me I dithered back and forth trying to decide whether to go to the Central Line or take an Abbey Wood and then DLR further down the line or NR from Liverpool Street and after the first Abbey Wood arrived and left, unexpectedly a Shenfield arrived completely not on the platform edge screens (which were still showing the next Abbey Wood).
Somewhat surprisingly, I heard no announcement from anybody on the platform correcting this either.

 

[Taunton]

unexpectedly a Shenfield arrived completely not on the platform edge screens (which were still showing the next Abbey Wood).

I do get the impression that because the platform train indicators showing rubbish is not one of the main reporting criteria, like cancellations are, it's given less attention, and provided the train runs and can be so reported (whether passengers can be told of its existence or not), that looks good.

It set in with the start of through running last December, and seems to have become progressively more frequent. All I do nowadays is just show up on the platform and look at the destination on the front of the train.

 

[Horizon22]

I do get the impression that because the platform train indicators showing rubbish is not one of the main reporting criteria, like cancellations are, it's given less attention, and provided the train runs and can be so reported (whether passengers can be told of its existence or not), that looks good.

It set in with the start of through running last December, and seems to have become progressively more frequent. All I do nowadays is just show up on the platform and look at the destination on the front of the train.

It’s given attention and reported on, it’s just the issue is getting increasingly complex and it seems Siemens & now TfL (as the Crossrail project ends) can’t get to the bottom of it. Somewhat worrying to know it’s “final completion” when clearly there are some significant outstanding issues!

Part of the problem of building a bespoke system and then tagging on other bits onto it later to sync it up to the Network Rail systems.

 

[800301]

It’s given attention and reported on, it’s just the issue is getting increasingly complex and it seems Siemens & now TfL (as the Crossrail project ends) can’t get to the bottom of it.

Part of the problem of building a bespoke system and then tagging on other bits onto it later to sync it up to the Network Rail systems.

If realtimetrains knows when my train is going to turn up more reliably than the actual platform information screens they might as well use that as a source rather than whatever they are currently using, it’s a daily basis that it’s wrong or just not showing anything and in most cases platform staff unless looking on external sources are none the wiser, but walking to the station and seeing 22mins for the next train when in reality it’s 3 mins is a little annoying because if it was 22 mins I could go a different way

 

[Horizon22]

If realtimetrains knows when my train is going to turn up more reliably than the actual platform information screens they might as well use that as a source rather than whatever they are currently using, it’s a daily basis that it’s wrong or just not showing anything and in most cases platform staff unless looking on external sources are none the wiser, but walking to the station and seeing 22mins for the next train when in reality it’s 3 mins is a little annoying because if it was 22 mins I could go a different way

That’s an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it. I’m no engineer, but if they could have had an easy fix, it would have been done by now. Why trains are in the timetable and missing (often with a lag) from the CIS appears to be a mystery.

 

[Taunton]

If realtimetrains knows when my train is going to turn up more reliably than the actual platform information screens they might as well use that as a source rather than whatever they are currently using, it’s a daily basis that it’s wrong or just not showing anything

I refer you to my suggested solution at post 22 above ...

Couldn't the station staff just be issued with a laptop with Real Time Trains, a blackboard, and chalk? They could borrow some Victorian uniforms from the Bluebell Railway to complete the illusion as well.

The issue seems to be not so much trains being in the timetable (or not), but trains actually running not being communicated to the CIS. Part of the issue seems to be that the actual train operation system is by Bombardier/Alstom, while the CIS is from Siemens. Quite why it was divided in this way has never been explained.

 

[NSEWonderer]

It’s given attention and reported on, it’s just the issue is getting increasingly complex and it seems Siemens & now TfL (as the Crossrail project ends) can’t get to the bottom of it. Somewhat worrying to know it’s “final completion” when clearly there are some significant outstanding issues!

Part of the problem of building a bespoke system and then tagging on other bits onto it later to sync it up to the Network Rail systems.

This issue is more so the cbtc system is part of the cis system alongside timetabled trains. Basically the cbtc system provides more real time tracking of where the train exactly is to give a more accurate arrival time ontop of the expected timetable arrival. Only issue is there isn't any redundancy from what I was aware of(for when the cbtc systems tracking provision errors and thus throws off the timetabled arrivals completely)

Staff on platforms have to tackle poor WiFi to then use a combination of signalmaps and live departures info to provided correct announcements

 

[Acton1991]

Staff on platforms have to tackle poor WiFi to then use a combination of signalmaps and live departures info to provided correct announcements

Or tonight at Tottenham Court Road where there were no announcements and just this really helpful message on all the screens, causing passengers to enter trains and then leave them when they realised they weren’t going to their destination

 

[NSEWonderer]

Or tonight at Tottenham Court Road where there were no announcements and just this really helpful message on all the screens, causing passengers to enter trains and then leave them when they realised they weren’t going to their destination

Tbh you'll have announcements by staff mainly during peak hours rather than off-peak. Ideally there is a little board mentioning the issues with the screens and to remind passengers to look at the side destination boards of arriving trains

 

[800301]

Or tonight at Tottenham Court Road where there were no announcements and just this really helpful message on all the screens, causing passengers to enter trains and then leave them when they realised they weren’t going to their destination

That’s currently the entire core section and has been all day, still not working

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Blimey, seems like the problems are getting worse. I regularly travel between Abbey Wood and Tottenham Court Road, and for weeks there have been continual problems with the Abbey Wood departure screens not working properly, but I've never yet experienced issues at Tottenham Court Road before. That's bad news if screens aren't working there now, because of the lack of Internet on the platforms. At Abbey Wood you can at least check national rail live departures on your phone (In fact that's now what I routinely do), but at Tottenham Court Road, that's harder: You'd have to remember to do it before you've entered the station, and that only works if you're starting your journey there - usually I'm changing from the Northern Line.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...] All I do nowadays is just show up on the platform and look at the destination on the front of the train.

A few weeks ago, I had the opposite experience.
The destination on the train and internal LCDs were showing Reading, but the platform was saying Paddington. Onboard, the driver was on the tannoy, telling us that the train was in fact terminating at Paddington due to disruption on the GWML, and to ignore the train destination.

 

[MM21]

Possibly, if the wi-fi was reliable.

The issue is Crossrail / Siemens can’t get to the bottom of the problem (both around wi-fi and the timetable). It’s been escalated as high as is feasibly possible, which I think involves engineers in Germany. As someone alluded go up-thread, the timetable upload and information systems have been made far too complex, reliant on too many other factors and is a bottleneck for the reliability of other downstream systems.

The actual train service ran quite well today.

Doing these through Wi-Fi is not a good solution at all once mobile coverages are completed at EL stations. Wi-Fi channels will simply be "crushed" when people start tethering and emitting their own Wi-Fi for their laptops

 

[Horizon22]

Doing these through Wi-Fi is not a good solution at all once mobile coverages are completed at EL stations. Wi-Fi channels will simply be "crushed" when people start tethering and emitting their own Wi-Fi for their laptops

Sorry what through wi-fi?

Wi-fi is currently not fully reliable in the central section; when the timetable and the CIS connection is lost, staff need to rely on other systems to check train information, so connection to wi-fi is how to get that info without mobile signal in the tunnels.

If the CIS/Timetable connection was working correctly, then staff wouldn’t need to rely on wi-fi, so it’s not necessary relevant.

 

[Taunton]

They've given up today. The CIS are just showing a generic "there is a Good Service to Heathrow and Reading". And to listen to announcements. Unfortunately there aren't any additional announcements at all, so especially in the central section there are a lot of confused tourists with suitcases etc. Noticeable that once out onto the GWML things seemed to be working correctly.

Am I correct that the Liz staff are wound up this coming weekend and things are transferring to TfL - could it be that the knowledgeable technical staff, or the contracts, or whatever, have gone?

There may not be WiFi at the platform positions, but surely there is a telephone line to put broadband onto for the staff to see Internet information?

Completely off-topic, but there was a Chinese tourist couple opposite with marginal English, who in the long dwell of the Liz westbound at Westbourne Park sidings were looking agitatedly at the train maps, and when I managed to penetrate where they were travelling to, it turned out it was to - Kew Gardens. Giving directions for that one was an interesting challenge ...

 

[matt_world2004]

Completely off-topic, but there was a Chinese tourist couple opposite with marginal English, who in the long dwell of the Liz westbound at Westbourne Park sidings were looking agitatedly at the train maps, and when I managed to penetrate where they were travelling to, it turned out it was to - Kew Gardens. Giving directions for that one was an interesting challenge ...

Ealing Broadway and 65 bus to Kingston

 

[Horizon22]

They've given up today. The CIS are just showing a generic "there is a Good Service to Heathrow and Reading". And to listen to announcements. Unfortunately there aren't any additional announcements at all, so especially in the central section there are a lot of confused tourists with suitcases etc. Noticeable that once out onto the GWML things seemed to be working correctly.

Am I correct that the Liz staff are wound up this coming weekend and things are transferring to TfL - could it be that the knowledgeable technical staff, or the contracts, or whatever, have gone?

There may not be WiFi at the platform positions, but surely there is a telephone line to put broadband onto for the staff to see Internet information

Crossrail as a project ends this weekend. Everything is handed over as “business as usual” to TfL and RfLI. Elizabeth line staff have always been employee by MTR as a concession of TfL. So it’s like the TOC/NR relationship, except everyone is ultimately accountable to TfL…

Unfortunately it appears they are handing things over with multiple issues - they’ll just have to be escalated in a more inconvenient matter to get to the source (in this case Siemens).

 

[Acton1991]

Does the central section not have the option for automated announcements which could be switched on during issues with the door screens?

 

[Benjwri]

Does the central section not have the option for automated announcements which could be switched on during issues with the door screens?

The announcements would use the same feed as the door screens though, so also be wrong.

 

[Taunton]

Ealing Broadway and 65 bus to Kingston

I did, inevitably, Ealing Broadway - Turnham Green - Kew Gardens, drawing an A4 diagram, making use for once of the green pen in my laptop bag, handing out my remaining Tube Map, and finding convenient that I could point to a District Line train running in parallel into Ealing. All in 5 minutes. I wonder if they are there yet.

 

[apbj]

WiFi is available at all stations. I've used it for the very reason that you state you want to use it.

No, it isn't. TfL network-sponsored wifi (of the kind available at Tube stations for about a decade) is available at most central stations but that's only for customers of Three and Vodafone. The dedicated Eizabeth line wifi at stations and onboard is not working apparently because of some conflict with train systems; it shows up in available networks if you search but it isn't connected to any servers and won't work. TfL confirmed this, per another thread.

It means that, unless you're a Three or Vodafone customer, the central Elizabeth line stations are a black hole for reliable customer information and a considerable step back compared to the tube where screens are more basic but generally accurate.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Does the central section not have the option for automated announcements which could be switched on during issues with the door screens?

That but when it normally works they are quite brief and there is this whole thing of wanting staff to announce every station the train goes to every train etc which becomes complex when dealing with ****e wifi coverage and no boards to go off on incase you're not fully aware of skip stops. Most have been doing it via signalmaps

 

[Bigbru]

No, it isn't. TfL network-sponsored wifi (of the kind available at Tube stations for about a decade) is available at most central stations but that's only for customers of Three and Vodafone. The dedicated Eizabeth line wifi at stations and onboard is not working apparently because of some conflict with train systems; it shows up in available networks if you search but it isn't connected to any servers and won't work. TfL confirmed this, per another thread.

It means that, unless you're a Three or Vodafone customer, the central Elizabeth line stations are a black hole for reliable customer information and a considerable step back compared to the tube where screens are more basic but generally accurate.

There is also EE WiFi in core stations as well.

 

[matt_world2004]

I can see stuff falling apart on sunday/Monday as the train software struggles to cope with the more intense service pattern and the elimination of the dwells at Westbourne Park exposes problems , that could previously be recovered in the 7 or so minutes the trains used to wait

 

[Horizon22]

I can see stuff falling apart on sunday/Monday as the train software struggles to cope with the more intense service pattern and the elimination of the dwells at Westbourne Park exposes problems , that could previously be recovered in the 7 or so minutes the trains used to wait

The “intense service pattern” would have nothing to do with it. The software will cope just as well / badly with whatever is loaded. Not having a dwell when things go badly on the GWML is obviously a performance dis-benefit but it’s a passenger benefit most of the time.

Most issues stem from how the timetable syncs with other related, but different systems such as auto-reverse, or the multiple on-board signalling overlaps. For instance why it was designed so complex and unique in areas such as information screens for which there are many solutions already is beyond me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

Does the central section not have the option for automated announcements which could be switched on during issues with the door screens?

It would only announce what is on the CIS, which would be wrong or missing services.

 

[matt_world2004]

The “intense service pattern” would have nothing to do with it. The software will cope just as well / badly with whatever is loaded. Not having a dwell when things go badly on the GWML is obviously a performance dis-benefit but it’s a passenger benefit most of the time.

The more intensive service requires auto reverse to operate successfully.. which is a potential point of failure ,secondly because trains are running at a higher frequency smaller software/Train faults can delay more trains behind and it causes issues when those delays start to cascade.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

For instance why it was designed so complex and unique in areas such as information screens for which there are many solutions already is beyond me.

Still surprises me even now why 4 platforms weren't put in place at Paddington (potentially bored on either side of the box). Would give much better operational flexibility and simplicity, at the cost of construction costs and complexities, which are arguably easier to solve

 

[TFN]

The more intensive service requires auto reverse to operate successfully.. which is a potential point of failure ,secondly because trains are running at a higher frequency smaller software/Train faults can delay more trains behind and it causes issues when those delays start to cascade.

Auto reverse has been in operation at Paddington for a number of weeks now with little issues.

 

[Horizon22]

The more intensive service requires auto reverse to operate successfully.. which is a potential point of failure ,secondly because trains are running at a higher frequency smaller software/Train faults can delay more trains behind and it causes issues when those delays start to cascade.

Sure any issue can result in more knock on delays with an any intensive service, but that could be an ill passenger, or a hardware fault or really anything preventing train movement, so no point singling out software.

Auto-reverse has been in operation for over a month.

 

[Taunton]

Interesting comments at the transition of the project from man-in-charge Howard Smith, decent chap who must be tearing his hair out at some of the emerging issues.

Howard Smith, TfL's Elizabeth line director, explained to the Elizabeth line committee: “we're not quite where we feel as comfortable as we should do," on three aspects of the line's current performance: delays on the western section between Paddington, Heathrow and Reading, reliability of the Class 345 trains, and a number of 'bugs' which have inadvertently occurred following a software upgrade over Easter

MSN

Following on from the techy trains, some of the off-train software has also not been meeting expectations. Over the Easter weekend, a software upgrade known as ELR400, "actually brought us some bugs or regressions," Mr Smith confirmed ... The upgrade generated some inadvertent problems where 'around 30 trains per day' would apply their emergency brakes unexpectedly.

TfL's interim transport commissioner Andy Lord, who was also present at the meeting, said he challenged train manufacturer Alstom and software provider Siemens to provide faster software updates for the 70 Elizabeth line trains. He added it was "appalling" how long the updates are taking compared to his previous experience in the aviation sector.

Article also covers the diversion of freight trains due to the Oxford bridge failure; noticeable yesterday was just how many container, and doubtless other, freights are having to be rerouted along the line, and in fact how well Control are managing to interleave them. They seem to have a particular problem heading southbound, from other main routes, where due to delays there they present considerably late at Acton.