EMR Class 360's

[Gulf1159]

360113 dragged 360121 (pan down) today as 5Q21

Realtime Trains - 5Q21 1333 Ferme Park Rec Ln Gbrf to Ilford E.M.U.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Railperf]

360113 dragged 360121 (pan down) today as 5Q21

Realtime Trains - 5Q21 1333 Ferme Park Rec Ln Gbrf to Ilford E.M.U.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I saw that at Stratford. One unit 'dragging' the other pan down.

 

[westcoaster]

Realistically, you're right - fare cuts just don't happen.
Although I accept the service will be better once the trains are refurbished, the current 'cheapest fare' Wellingborough to London is £47.50. that's £95 for a round trip. Wellingborough is about 65 miles from London by rail.
One alternative would be to go by car, bus or taxi to Northampton, where the similar fare is £18.60 single, saving £57.80. (and more trains than even the new Wellingborough service)
But has an every 30 minute (rather than 2 trains per hour) service from St Pancras been promised? Providing an even interval service for Northamptonshire has always been said to be impossible, due to platform occupancy at St Pancras, in the past.

I hope they don't find out that the 360s are in a worse state than they expected, having been neglected by their previous operator, and don't all get done. That has happened, I've heard somewhere...

Remember that split ticketing from all stations north of bedford at bedford saves lots of money. Once the even spaced service pattern happens and all trains stop at bedford, it will be easier to travel on split tickets.

Anyway back to 360's it's good to see they are now all transferred.

 

[Hey 3]

The West Coast wasn't done like that - the initial electrification was Crewe-Liverpool and Crewe-Manchester. The next scheme was Crewe-London (both via Trent Valley and via Birmingham) and it was that way round, with loco changes at places like Nuneaton, Rugby, Bletchley as the wires were put up and energised heading southwards in phases, Euston being the last to get 25kv. Finally the line north of Weaver Junction was approved, and again was done in phases, though in this case of course Glasgow Central was already wired for the suburban service. Loco changes en route featured again, notably at Preston, as the wires steadily extended northwards from the Crewe area this time.

No the Styal line and the Crewe-Manchester line was done first

No the Styal line and the Crewe-Manchester line was done first

Then the rest

 

[MML]

I know COVID, MML electrification and delayed tranfer from GA may have delayed introduction of these units from Dec 20 to the May 21 timetable change.
But what I cannot fathom is why EMR haven't signed off on the refurbishment and allocated slots for the work with an approved supplier yet.
Their arrival has been planned for over a year and can't have come as a complete surprise.
Just appears to be really poor planning to introduce old unrefurbished stock when they are trumpeting a new improved service.

 

[JonathanH]

I know COVID, MML electrification and delayed tranfer from GA may have delayed introduction of these units from Dec 20 to the May 21 timetable change.
But what I cannot fathom is why EMR haven't signed off on the refurbishment and allocated slots for the work with an approved supplier yet.

Maybe they have but there aren't slots available yet. Maybe the DfT hasn't signed off on the spending. It's not really up to EMR

 

[Hey 3]

I know COVID, MML electrification and delayed tranfer from GA may have delayed introduction of these units from Dec 20 to the May 21 timetable change.
But what I cannot fathom is why EMR haven't signed off on the refurbishment and allocated slots for the work with an approved supplier yet.
Their arrival has been planned for over a year and can't have come as a complete surprise.
Just appears to be really poor planning to introduce old unrefurbished stock when they are trumpeting a new improved service.

Yes it is poor how Abellio(EMR) could not order electric trains in time for MML electrification and also couldnt even use a displaced 379 or 387 displaced from C2C or Abellio Greater Anglia

 

[DB]

Maybe they have but there aren't slots available yet. Maybe the DfT hasn't signed off on the spending. It's not really up to EMR

They had long enough to get it arranged before all this started.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes it is poor how Abellio(EMR) could not order electric trains in time for MML electrification and also couldnt even use a displaced 379 or 387 displaced from C2C or Abellio Greater Anglia

Huh? What have 379s or 387s got to do with it? Neither are available and neither are suitable.

 

[43096]

Yes it is poor how Abellio(EMR) could not order electric trains in time for MML electrification and also couldnt even use a displaced 379 or 387 displaced from C2C or Abellio Greater Anglia

You are barking up the wrong tree. Take aim at Bombardier's amazing capacity to deliver new trains only when delays are running in years rather than months - that's the root of the delayed release of the 360s.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes it is poor how Abellio(EMR) could not order electric trains in time for MML electrification and also couldnt even use a displaced 379 or 387 displaced from C2C or Abellio Greater Anglia

Use the 379s where? There isn't enough 387s at C2C, and the 21 360/1s are perfect for what EMR needs. They are the first GA unit freed up by the Aventra's, and I see no point introducing another electric fleet to EMR only to be replaced by the 360s in a short space of time. Yes, introducing unrefurbished 360s are not ideal, but adding another fleet would be even more ridiculous!

 

[Nym]

Maybe they're looking at the quality of other interior refurbishments and wondering where to get to do it...
Does seem to be a lack of quality with basically anywhere at the moment.

 

[DB]

Maybe they're looking at the quality of other interior refurbishments and wondering where to get to do it...
Does seem to be a lack of quality with basically anywhere at the moment.

It will need to go out to tender - they won't just go to a works and ask them to do it!

 

[fgwrich]

Maybe they're looking at the quality of other interior refurbishments and wondering where to get to do it...
Does seem to be a lack of quality with basically anywhere at the moment.

Wouldn't surprise me if Siemens do it in house, as they are doing at Northam / Eastleigh for SWR & Northampton for WMT/LNWR. The tricky issue will be repainting them, as the repaints for both fleets are being done at separate depots (Bournemouth for SWR and Long Marston for the Midlands fleet).

 

[py_megapixel]

Maybe they're looking at the quality of other interior refurbishments and wondering where to get to do it...
Does seem to be a lack of quality with basically anywhere at the moment.

I'm fairly sure the lack of refurb quality is due to cheap spec more than anything else

It will need to go out to tender - they won't just go to a works and ask them to do it!

But presumably they could make the bidder's previous work a factor that is considered as part of the process.

There must be an implicit element of that anyway - after all, they wouldn't just hand a contract to an upstart company with no history of performing this kind of work and no infrastructure to do so... well not unless Abellio is run by an ex Tory minister

 

[swt_passenger]

Wouldn't surprise me if Siemens do it in house, as they are doing at Northam / Eastleigh for SWR & Northampton for WMT/LNWR. The tricky issue will be repainting them, as the repaints for both fleets are being done at separate depots (Bournemouth for SWR and Long Marston for the Midlands fleet).

If successful repetition gets repeat orders you’d think Siemens at Eastleigh would be good, (for the interior work). The only minimal downside is having to drag them?

 

[Domh245]

The only minimal downside is having to drag them?

They'll need dragging wherever they go!

 

[swt_passenger]

They'll need dragging wherever they go!

True, at least they’ll be well practiced...

 

[DB]

They'll need dragging wherever they go!

Unless they set up a temporary facility at the units' home depot - has been done elsewhere, but dependant on space of course.

 

[Domh245]

Unless they set up a temporary facility at the units' home depot - has been done elsewhere, but dependant on space of course.

They even need dragging to their 'home' depot in Northampton! Kettering would be a possibility though, though it'd need them to build an entire building somewhere which does seem a little bit excessive compared to just paying GBRF/ROG

 

[Ktecklenberg]

Mention in the latest edition of Modern Railways, an interior refurbishment is planned with EMR intending to go to the market seeking a contractor during 2021.
Certainly don't appear to be in any hurry to make the units fit for purpose. You'd think the next few months to May would have been the perfect opportunity for beginning the refit and repainting.

Pickng up on this, I travelled on a 180 on the first day in MML service and the interior was filthy. The seats had not been deep cleaned even though the units had been at Derby since the summer. With a initial 2+3 entry in service and 4 months to go hopefully they will get out the hoovers.

 

[fgwrich]

True, at least they’ll be well practiced...

Fortunately it wouldn’t be too difficult for ROG with their 57/3s (or GBRf with a Dellner fitted 47), as we’ve seen before. Besides, it would nice to see another Desiro off its patch again...

 

[Hey 3]

Use the 379s where? There isn't enough 387s at C2C, and the 21 360/1s are perfect for what EMR needs. They are the first GA unit freed up by the Aventra's, and I see no point introducing another electric fleet to EMR only to be replaced by the 360s in a short space of time. Yes, introducing unrefurbished 360s are not ideal, but adding another fleet would be even more ridiculous!

Use the 379s on the MML
In fact by next year or the year after C2C are going to replace them with Class 720s I think

 

[Domh245]

Use the 379s on the MML
In fact by next year or the year after C2C are going to replace them with Class 720s I think

The 379s, that are still in use with GA? Or the 6 387s that are, still in use with c2c. As opposed to the 360s, which are now at EMR?

 

[JonathanH]

Use the 379s on the MML

What are you suggesting? Splitting the service at Kettering and only running electrics south of there?

 

[MML]

What units are currently serviced at Bedford Cauldwell depot ?
I was under the impression the depot was not suitable for the TL 700 fleet and it hadn't been used since 379s had left.
But maybe I'm wrong.

 

[43096]

Use the 379s on the MML
In fact by next year or the year after C2C are going to replace them with Class 720s I think

With all due respect, you seem to be very confused as to which fleet is where and which is being released when.

 

[Energy]

Use the 379s on the MML

They are still at GA and look to be some of the last to leave, the 360s have all left for EMR. There are also the perfect number of 360s while there are a few too many 379s...

 

[fgwrich]

They are still at GA and look to be some of the last to leave, the 360s have all left for EMR. There are also the perfect number of 360s while there are a few too many 379s...

There’s also the leasing Co’s to deal with. EMR & Abellio will have had experience of dealing with Angel Trains before and will no doubt have picked up a good deal. The 379s however... there’s a reason why Macquarie European Rail Leasing were once dubbed the Vampire leasing co. High Prices and contact only when they want to...

 

[JonathanH]

What units are currently serviced at Bedford Cauldwell depot ?
I was under the impression the depot was not suitable for the TL 700 fleet and it hadn't been used since 379s had left.
But maybe I'm wrong.

Thameslink use Cauldwell Depot (or at least sidings there) for 700 stabling but not the servicing facilities. There are a number of workings into and out of the depot each day

Realtime Trains | Departures from Bedford Cauldwell Depot between 0200 and 0159 on 04/02/2021

Train information at Bedford Cauldwell Depot between 0200 and 0159 on 04/02/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A look at a satellite picture shows why the depot isn't any use for fixed formation 8- or 12-car units, the buildings being suited for 4-car units.

I think there was some sort of reorganisation to allow 12-car units to be stabled there as there is an awkward disconnect between the 14 8-car roads in Bedford Carriage Sidings and the 12-car operation of Bedford to Gatwick / Brighton services.