EMR Class 360's

[F Great Eastern]

Over half had serious faults on them when they were brought over to us. It was tricky finding a single set without a fault that we train on. Even now every single set has an a/c fault on as a minimum .
And no the Siemens staff are not new starters, their very experienced, but overwhelmed with the workload.

So we come back to the same old argument as earlier in the thread.

Why were units that were ultra reliable and winning a golden spanner at the end of 2019 in a situation where pretty much all of them had faults a year later? The sharp decline that they had in that short time frame is not normal, and it cannot be a co-incidence it happens in the year when they were about to go off lease either, especially when you consider that the entire GA EMU fleet suffered falls, with both the 360 fleets and the 379 fleets being substantial fallers in MTIN.

Something must have changed between the fleet winning the golden spanners one year and the way it plundered the next. It's just not normal. Was it a conscious decision to cut back on maintenance or focus on the short term because they were leaving soon, did Siemens have less oversight and more was done in house by GA, or was maintenance impacted by the building of the new Bombardier depot on the same site for the 720s?

I don't buy for one second that their MTIN dropped off a cliff suddenly from one year to the next without something changing that had contributed to it. It would make no sense considering the figures that the Desiro UK products have been posting for the last 15 years.

 

[Trainbike46]

So we come back to the same old argument as earlier in the thread.

Why were units that were ultra reliable and winning a golden spanner at the end of 2019 in a situation where pretty much all of them had faults a year later? The sharp decline that they had in that short time frame is not normal, and it cannot be a co-incidence it happens in the year when they were about to go off lease either, especially when you consider that the entire GA EMU fleet suffered falls, with both the 360 fleets and the 379 fleets being substantial fallers in MTIN.

Something must have changed between the fleet winning the golden spanners one year and the way it plundered the next. It's just not normal. Was it a conscious decision to cut back on maintenance or focus on the short term because they were leaving soon, did Siemens have less oversight and more was done in house by GA, or was maintenance impacted by the building of the new Bombardier depot on the same site for the 720s?

I don't buy for one second that their MTIN dropped off a cliff suddenly from one year to the next without something changing that had contributed to it. It would make no sense considering the figures that the Desiro UK products have been posting for the last 15 years.

I recall there being an issue with GA having (very) limited maintenance capacity during the fleet changeover, because of depots being rebuilt, so that would (almost certainly) have contributed to reduced reliability. I don't think this would have been a concious decision (at the end of the day, both GA and EMR are Abellio), but rather a situation that arose because of the limited maintenance capacity.

Now the real question is why hasn't the reliability recovered since they went over to EMR. They've been there for a while now, and you would expect them to "catch up" over time. I guess the depot issues at EMR are probably to blame for that

 

[QSK19]

Why is it that the East Midlands seemingly always gets the rotten end of the deal? We see other TOCs get brand new trains or decent refurbishments (TPE seemingly get new stock handed to them on a plate; and the Northern 170s look super) yet EMR gets the run down stuff from elsewhere (360s, 156/9s, ex-LNER HSTs). I remember seeing somewhere on RF some data showing that many other regions have priority when it comes to where rail investment needs to go; but the East Midlands surely can’t be left out forever. Yes, there is the significant upgrade of the MML, but it isn’t enough when you look at the bigger picture.

EMR’s non-IC provision has been a disaster and the passengers using those services shouldn’t have to put up with it, not least an inferior Connect service (at least the 170s bring something more modern to the Regional operation) - take my example from last year when 360114 had a leaking roof (it was definitely a roof leak - the sheer intensity of the leak couldn’t have been from any air con infrastructure). It’s unacceptable and the 360s need to be sorted as a priority (refurbishment, maintenance regime, depot provision, staff competency with EMU traction, etc). It simply can’t go on - there is only so much that a repaint and snazzy marketing campaigns can do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EMR’s non-IC provision has been a disaster and the passengers using those services shouldn’t have to put up with it, not least an inferior Connect service (at least the 170s bring something more modern to the Regional operation) - take my example from last year when 360114 had a leaking roof (it was definitely a roof leak - the sheer intensity of the leak couldn’t have been from any air con infrastructure). It’s unacceptable and the 360s need to be sorted as a priority (refurbishment, maintenance regime, depot provision, staff competency with EMU traction, etc). It simply can’t go on - there is only so much that a repaint and snazzy marketing campaigns can do.

On the WCML we love our 350s, as they're basically the same thing it really should be possible to sort the situation out. The lack of access to a maintenance depot without faffing around dragging them is probably the biggest issue.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’ve been on a couple of 350s today and they are in much better shape than the 360s were in their last 18 months at GA and I dread to think that they look like now on EMR. I was at St P and the one on the opposite platform was filthy and only 4 coaches.

Once they get their own dedicated area at Cauldwell things should rapidly improve, especially with the expertise they brought with them from GA, plus the refurbishment is they add them onto the 170 job.

 

[westcoaster]

Most of the team came from Ilford where they were previously based. Almost all of the issues have their root in the fact that the heavy maintenance is carried out off route with no ad hoc access, and light maintenance plays second fiddle to GTR who retain overall control of the shed for 700s.

Worth pointing out this is the hand that any winning bidder would have been dealt with, following decision to de scope MML electrification.

Not true as GTR only stable units in the shed, so no second fiddle.

I’ve been on a couple of 350s today and they are in much better shape than the 360s were in their last 18 months at GA and I dread to think that they look like now on EMR. I was at St P and the one on the opposite platform was filthy and only 4 coaches.

Once they get their own dedicated area at Cauldwell things should rapidly improve, especially with the expertise they brought with them from GA, plus the refurbishment is they add them onto the 170 job.

They already have there own dedicated facilities at Cauldwell, and have done since day one.
Problems arise because units that have faults have to return to Cauldwell, this can only be done if an available driver (only Kettering sign the depot) can help. It could be days before these moves can happen.

 

[Halish Railway]

Almost all of the issues have their root in the fact that the heavy maintenance is carried out off route with no ad hoc access, and light maintenance plays second fiddle to GTR who retain overall control of the shed for 700s..

This is where the advantage of having GTR run St. Pancras to Corby under a sub brand would have come in hand, not being second fiddle to the 700s in maintenance terms. It would also have given the advantage of competing with EMR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would also have given the advantage of competing with EMR.

But only on Kettering London, compared to Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport London today.

 

[Halish Railway]

But only on Kettering London, compared to Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport London today.

But it means that you’d no longer have to pay intercity prices on an outer-urban / Interregional train if you got an operator-specific ticket.

 

[MML]

Cauldwell depot appears to have 4 roads into the original building with an additional road to an extension on the western side. There appears to be sufficient space for an additional covered road for an eastern extension and waste ground to the east which could be used to construct 4 or 5 car sidings for stabling 360 and 802 units.
It would require development but could be done to assist the movement of units for heavy and light maintenance.

 

[Maddog83]

Cauldwell only has 2 roads available to EMR. GTR are the overlords on the depot and everything goes through them. They use it to stable units and tanking on units in there. Their services come 1st. The Siemens guys do a cracking job with the space they have to play with. The units have since introduction come on in leaps and bounds in regarding to faults and maintenance. Remember the units were parked up in Cricklewood for over 6 months pans down batteries off, in the cold wet and snow. AC units don't like being off for such lengths of time. In regards to unit availability fleet planning works that 18 available units are required to run the 12 car diagrams when they come in ( Currently Dec 22 timetable change - Union and other constraints dependent), currently 2 units at Arlington for paint work so always unavailable. 1 unit unavailable when rotating to Arlington. 1 unit in deep maintenance at Kingsheath, 2 units on service at cauldwell. And 1 or 2 units being rotated out of cauldwell to Cricklewood daily. That leaves 15 units to play with. So when run of the mill fault crop up during the day, can be anything from damaged windscreens, defective horns, door faults, interlock faults, traction or brake faults they will not be in service, nor should they be. (This is no different from any other TOC). Once the paint jobs are done there will be a much more resilient and strengthened service. They are getting there and for the job they do they a cracking units. Kettering or Wellingborough in about an hour is comparable with Northampton services. Train interiors is true to say are not the best but they do the job. There will be a refit on the way, to what extent is still being worked on from what I hear DFT budget sign off is the big hurdle. I know EMR what to make a top product out of it but as we all know it's now out of their control. Could be worse could have the 319s back

 

[fgwrich]

Cauldwell only has 2 roads available to EMR. GTR are the overlords on the depot and everything goes through them. They use it to stable units and tanking on units in there. Their services come 1st. The Siemens guys do a cracking job with the space they have to play with. The units have since introduction come on in leaps and bounds in regarding to faults and maintenance. Remember the units were parked up in Cricklewood for over 6 months pans down batteries off, in the cold wet and snow. AC units don't like being off for such lengths of time. In regards to unit availability fleet planning works that 18 available units are required to run the 12 car diagrams when they come in ( Currently Dec 22 timetable change - Union and other constraints dependent), currently 2 units at Arlington for paint work so always unavailable. 1 unit unavailable when rotating to Arlington. 1 unit in deep maintenance at Kingsheath, 2 units on service at cauldwell. And 1 or 2 units being rotated out of cauldwell to Cricklewood daily. That leaves 15 units to play with. So when run of the mill fault crop up during the day, can be anything from damaged windscreens, defective horns, door faults, interlock faults, traction or brake faults they will not be in service, nor should they be. (This is no different from any other TOC). Once the paint jobs are done there will be a much more resilient and strengthened service. They are getting there and for the job they do they a cracking units. Kettering or Wellingborough in about an hour is comparable with Northampton services. Train interiors is true to say are not the best but they do the job. There will be a refit on the way, to what extent is still being worked on from what I hear DFT budget sign off is the big hurdle. I know EMR what to make a top product out of it but as we all know it's now out of their control. Could be worse could have the 319s back

Thank you for a more sensible and reasoned post in this thread! Of course the interior refurb relies on the DfT sign off, though some of the hyperbole and posts in here would make you think EMR are deliberately running them down. Hopefully, as both you and others have said, the reliability levels will see an increase when units are back from Arlington (11 painted, 2 in the works with 120 due back soon and 1 just down there this week, 9 in the old livery) with more units available both to EMR and to Siemens and more depots / staff trained up on them.

 

[43066]

Cauldwell only has 2 roads available to EMR. GTR are the overlords on the depot and everything goes through them. They use it to stable units and tanking on units in there. Their services come 1st. The Siemens guys do a cracking job with the space they have to play with. The units have since introduction come on in leaps and bounds in regarding to faults and maintenance. Remember the units were parked up in Cricklewood for over 6 months pans down batteries off, in the cold wet and snow. AC units don't like being off for such lengths of time. In regards to unit availability fleet planning works that 18 available units are required to run the 12 car diagrams when they come in ( Currently Dec 22 timetable change - Union and other constraints dependent), currently 2 units at Arlington for paint work so always unavailable. 1 unit unavailable when rotating to Arlington. 1 unit in deep maintenance at Kingsheath, 2 units on service at cauldwell. And 1 or 2 units being rotated out of cauldwell to Cricklewood daily. That leaves 15 units to play with. So when run of the mill fault crop up during the day, can be anything from damaged windscreens, defective horns, door faults, interlock faults, traction or brake faults they will not be in service, nor should they be. (This is no different from any other TOC). Once the paint jobs are done there will be a much more resilient and strengthened service. They are getting there and for the job they do they a cracking units. Kettering or Wellingborough in about an hour is comparable with Northampton services. Train interiors is true to say are not the best but they do the job. There will be a refit on the way, to what extent is still being worked on from what I hear DFT budget sign off is the big hurdle. I know EMR what to make a top product out of it but as we all know it's now out of their control. Could be worse could have the 319s back

Excellent post, thanks.

There have been numerous issues with EMR drivers arriving at Cauldwell only to find the units they’re supposed to take buried by 700s, not yet worked on, or even finding possessions in place preventing access to the depot entirely - various failures in communication lead to that.

Space being at such a premium is why it’s sometimes possible to see units stabled at KDS due to low mileage remaining - it simply isn’t always possible to get them into Cauldwell in time. Unfortunately this can give the impression that EMR are parking up eight car sets and running fours just for the sake of it.

 

[Maddog83]

Currently only Kettering drivers sign Cauldwell, there are dedicated diagrams in the day for unit moves and rotations. So on paper when all the units are back the plan works with units out on maintenance and even with an odd pulled faulty unit. In time maybe EMR will take over all of cauldwell if GTR units can have new storage roads somewhere or swap with EMR for some of the new roads in Cricklewood. This would be a win win all round. Having a fully kitted out maintenance depot on similar levels with Kingsheath including laith road etc, and no more drags to Northampton! This I'm guessing would take some high level discussions and some big bags of cash to accomplish.

 

[ChrisC]

Why is it that the East Midlands seemingly always gets the rotten end of the deal? We see other TOCs get brand new trains or decent refurbishments (TPE seemingly get new stock handed to them on a plate; and the Northern 170s look super) yet EMR gets the run down stuff from elsewhere (360s, 156/9s, ex-LNER HSTs). I remember seeing somewhere on RF some data showing that many other regions have priority when it comes to where rail investment needs to go; but the East Midlands surely can’t be left out forever. Yes, there is the significant upgrade of the MML, but it isn’t enough when you look at the bigger picture.

EMR’s non-IC provision has been a disaster and the passengers using those services shouldn’t have to put up with it, not least an inferior Connect service (at least the 170s bring something more modern to the Regional operation) - take my example from last year when 360114 had a leaking roof (it was definitely a roof leak - the sheer intensity of the leak couldn’t have been from any air con infrastructure). It’s unacceptable and the 360s need to be sorted as a priority (refurbishment, maintenance regime, depot provision, staff competency with EMU traction, etc). It simply can’t go on - there is only so much that a repaint and snazzy marketing campaigns can do.

It’s tradition that the East Midlands gets run down stock from elsewhere for their regional services so probably everything away from the Inter City MML services will be treated in this way.
When Central Trains was broken up EMT seemed to receive everyone’s worst run down cast offs and some of the 153’s and particular 158’s were in an appalling condition. The big difference last time was that Stagecoach did a very good and fairly quick job at getting them completely refurbished and maintained them well. This lot we have now do not seem to see the urgency this time.
As far as the 20 year old run down 170’s we now have are concerned, I expect the East Midlands will be stuck with them for many years until the West Midlands get another new lot of trains and we can have their old ones. Perhaps the Connect services will experience the same with the 360’s.
My comments above are intended to be a bit tongue in cheek, but perhaps there is some truth in it.

 

[RailWonderer]

Of course the interior refurb relies on the DfT sign off, though some of the hyperbole and posts in here would make you think EMR are deliberately running them down.

Too many people on this forum and this thread especially are regulars on the route so notably less objectivity than normal.

As far as the 20 year old run down 170’s we now have are concerned, I expect the East Midlands will be stuck with them for many years until the West Midlands get another new lot of trains and we can have their old ones.

The ex-Anglia ones are in great shape, refurbed in 2015/16 and many would have 170s over 195/196s any day.

 

[LowLevel]

Too many people on this forum and this thread especially are regulars on the route so notably less objectivity than normal.

The ex-Anglia ones are in great shape, refurbed in 2015/16 and many would have 170s over 195/196s any day.

If the other 170/2s are anything like 273 then they've got plug sockets which is good, but otherwise an eclectic mix of GA seat covers with the original Anglia greens etc everywhere which looks a bit tatty. Still not a bad train but I'd say great shape is a bit much!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Too many people on this forum and this thread especially are regulars on the route so notably less objectivity than normal.

The ex-Anglia ones are in great shape, refurbed in 2015/16 and many would have 170s over 195/196s any day.

They’re absolutely not in great shape, and as I posted the other day, down here in Wales there are several with tables that have actually been removed by yobs, missing parts of the luggage racks and CrossCountry seat covers here and there. And as LowLevel said, turquoise Anglia Railways signage everywhere.

 

[A0wen]

But it means that you’d no longer have to pay intercity prices on an outer-urban / Interregional train if you got an operator-specific ticket.

Why ?

This has been discussed before - where's the evidence that fares would be lowered if the TOC was changed ? (Clue - there isn't any).

 

[Halish Railway]

Why ?

This has been discussed before - where's the evidence that fares would be lowered if the TOC was changed ? (Clue - there isn't any).

But their is evidence that having multiple competing TOCs can result in cheaper fairs being available I.e. London to Birmingham LNWR only - Did these sort of cheap flexible tickets in the days of BR?

 

[RailWonderer]

They’re absolutely not in great shape, and as I posted the other day, down here in Wales there are several with tables that have actually been removed by yobs, missing parts of the luggage racks and CrossCountry seat covers here and there. And as LowLevel said, turquoise Anglia Railways signage everywhere.

To be fair last time I used them was on GA and we did not that type of ASB in our region. Also I didn’t know yobs carried tools to remove tables. Is this true?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To be fair last time I used them was on GA and we did not that type of ASB in our region. Also I didn’t know yobs carried tools to remove tables. Is this true?

Tables have been taken out. I assume they were removed by staff, but apparently according to several other forumers it is due to continuous vandalism and damage by local yobs.

When all the fleet get a good refresh by EMR, it won’t be a second too soon.

EDIT: With all the talk of the Turbostars, I genuinely believed this was the 170 thread! Here is the link to that, for anyone who wants to continue the discussion. It might be better to refrain from discussing them on this Desiro thread to avoid mass confusion

EMR Class 170 updates

It feels like this gets mooted every couple of years by a 158 operator, EMT might have been one in the past. It always tends to get stopped in its tracks because of the lack of adaptor plates to compensate for the different corridor width - I seem to recall there being a relatively small number...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[baz962]

Currently only Kettering drivers sign Cauldwell, there are dedicated diagrams in the day for unit moves and rotations. So on paper when all the units are back the plan works with units out on maintenance and even with an odd pulled faulty unit. In time maybe EMR will take over all of cauldwell if GTR units can have new storage roads somewhere or swap with EMR for some of the new roads in Cricklewood. This would be a win win all round. Having a fully kitted out maintenance depot on similar levels with Kingsheath including laith road etc, and no more drags to Northampton! This I'm guessing would take some high level discussions and some big bags of cash to accomplish.

Five roads at Cricklewood that you are on about and gtr use one and EMR the other four. Usually at least two have a meridian each and one has a 360 that all leave between 05.00 ish and just after 06.00 to start the early services. So you couldn't really give any to gtr. maybe one.

 

[westcoaster]

Currently only Kettering drivers sign Cauldwell, there are dedicated diagrams in the day for unit moves and rotations. So on paper when all the units are back the plan works with units out on maintenance and even with an odd pulled faulty unit. In time maybe EMR will take over all of cauldwell if GTR units can have new storage roads somewhere or swap with EMR for some of the new roads in Cricklewood. This would be a win win all round. Having a fully kitted out maintenance depot on similar levels with Kingsheath including laith road etc, and no more drags to Northampton! This I'm guessing would take some high level discussions and some big bags of cash to accomplish.

OR EMR could build there own depot on A-E roads, or a 2 road shed at Kettering. It really was a silly idea to base the units in the middle of the route with limited driver access and no staff.

Cricklewood would make most sense, could be a shared electric facility with the Arora's.

 

[A0wen]

But their is evidence that having multiple competing TOCs can result in cheaper fairs being available I.e. London to Birmingham LNWR only - Did these sort of cheap flexible tickets in the days of BR?

But that's not what was being suggested.

What was suggested was to give the Corby's to Thameslink, so only Kettering would have both EMR and TL. All it would do is switch Corby, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton to being TL only, so why would that make it cheaper?

Besides, EMR do offer advances, example between Mon and Weds next week you can get a train from Wellingborough to London for £22 arriving before 10am.

 

[spotify95]

Surely a full 12 car service would be achievable with 18 from 21 units. That would be 85% utilisation and is fairly typical for modern EMUs and has been achieved for some time with other Desiro UK EMU variants. I doubt a larger fleet would have been accepted by DfT, why would such poor availability have been predictable?

Also, DfT would have required EMUs of some sort to be used to justify the planned Corby electrification, the earlier suggestion they should have used modernised HSTs would never have been proposed by the incoming franchisee, it would have made no sense.

The modified HSTs was just a hypothetical suggestion; EMR had the rolling stock and it has a much better interior than the 360s. Even the 6 car services were better than a 4 car 360, and would have still allowed First Class.

If electric trains were required then other options could have been explored, such as refurbished Mk3s and/or Mk4s with a suitable electric locomotive - this would certainly have had better reliability than the 360s. You know there's a problem when you can't even get 12 out of 21 units in service.

Maybe the 360s will be better once they have had the full refurbishment - but right now at least, there are/were better alternatives.

 

[Halish Railway]

But that's not what was being suggested.

What was suggested was to give the Corby's to Thameslink, so only Kettering would have both EMR and TL. All it would do is switch Corby, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton to being TL only, so why would that make it cheaper?

Besides, EMR do offer advances, example between Mon and Weds next week you can get a train from Wellingborough to London for £22 arriving before 10am.

All of the stations served by 360s would still get EMR calls, albeit Kettering being the only one being served regularly throughout the day. The ability to have operator specific flexible tickets is what would lower ticket prices, assuming that GTR would offer much cheaper tickets than the base any operator ticket. Maybe I should have clarified that more clearly.

 

[baz962]

OR EMR could build there own depot on A-E roads, or a 2 road shed at Kettering. It really was a silly idea to base the units in the middle of the route with limited driver access and no staff.

Cricklewood would make most sense, could be a shared electric facility with the Arora's.

Except EMR don't use the five roads. Thameslink use one every night.

 

[A0wen]

All of the stations served by 360s would still get EMR calls, albeit Kettering being the only one being served regularly throughout the day. The ability to have operator specific flexible tickets is what would lower ticket prices, assuming that GTR would offer much cheaper tickets than the base any operator ticket. Maybe I should have clarified that more clearly.

But there are already advances which are cheaper.

Bit in bold - why would GTR do that where they were the sole operator? Which of course they virtually would be if the Corby's were transferred to them.

EMR would only serve the other stations on a handful of trains a day if they didn't have the Corby's- it's not like other places where there are operator specific ticketd in place.

Perhaps you could explain why, if cheaper operator specific tickets would be introduced if the Corby's were transferred to TL, why TL (or their predecessors) haven't already put in place cheaper TL only tickets from Bedford or Luton.......

 

[fgwrich]

Two in the works: 120 went down when 116 came out, I believe.

Apologies, missed that move! I Briefly saw it yesterday and looks almost ready to return to the East Midlands.

So, all in all, we’re now over the half way mark and bearing down on the final units.