EMR - Day return dated three weeks in advance

[Scott W]

Hello,

An interesting one, which I am sure EMR could have been much more helpful on. Anyway, advice much appreciated:

Purchased day return tickets to Leeds from Alfreton ticket office at the beginning of January, I asked for a return to Leeds and the clerk asked for confirmation we were returning the same-day, which I confirmed. We had a delay on the outward Northern journey within Delay Repay parameters.

On attempting to file the Delay Repay claim I noticed the tickets were dated the 26th of January, and therefore were not valid to make the said claim. Worth noting we got a ticket check on the return leg and although confused at the time we had to present the tickets in and out of Leeds station when they failed to open the barriers.

I sought advice from the EMR Twitter Team, who promptly directed me to the Customer Service Team, who I emailed the same day. After a couple of weeks and chases I got a fairly unhelpful reply, particularly as I had attached a photo of my tickets to my original email, the response noted that "in order to look at compensation we would need to see the valid tickets, if this was a Northern Train then they would advise what they need to process this." I promptly replied reconfirming for a third time the situation in question.

Today I have received another reply, which states "it is the customer responsibility to double check the purchased tickets to ensure everything is correct. Unfortunately as you did not have valid tickets for the journey you would not be eligible to claim, I am sorry for any disappointment caused."

I guess my two questions are:

1. Should I continue to pursue EMR and possibly the Rail Ombudsman. And...

2. Although it doesn't feel right, should I just ask for a full refund on the tickets that were not used on the 26th of January, which would obviously more than cover what my Delay Repay claim would be.

Thanks in advance.

 

[DDB]

Sorry I can't help but I suspect you are in for a battle as in my experience the EMR customer service team appear to think their job is to say anything to make the customer go away. In my experience they don't appear to read and comprehend the question asked and just answer something else.
Good luck. I suspect you will need it.

 

[VC00]

I would try contacting their support number - about an hour wait time but sorted my problem far quicker than twitter/email.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Today I have received another reply, which states "it is the customer responsibility to double check the purchased tickets to ensure everything is correct. Unfortunately as you did not have valid tickets for the journey you would not be eligible to claim, I am sorry for any disappointment caused."

It's not a particularly helpful response, but reckon EMR are essentially correct in what they have to say. And it could possibly have been worse, you might well have been PF'd at Leeds, as you didn't have valid tickets!

 

[robbeech]

Whilst it is unhelpful, it really is your responsibility to check your tickets are correct.

I think the most you can hope for is an apology from them if you contact them specifically about the incorrect tickets being issued and don’t talk about how you travelled without a valid ticket.

 

[kristiang85]

I love how a customer can make a simple ticketing mistake and be pilloried for it by a TOC (and the law) as it is their responsibility to make sure they have the right ticket, yet when a TOC issues the wrong ticket it is still the customer's responsibility!

Surely the ticket printing/purchasing date was stamped on the ticket, so it can be proven you were making a journey that day?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I love how a customer can make a simple ticketing mistake and be pilloried for it by a TOC (and the law) as it is their responsibility to make sure they have the right ticket, yet when a TOC issues the wrong ticket it is still the customer's responsibility!

Certainly asymmetric consequences for the contracting parties.

Surely the ticket printing/purchasing date was stamped on the ticket, so it can be proven you were making a journey that day?

Not really, just 'proves' the ticket was issued/printed on a particular day and at a particular time.

 

[Scott W]

I love how a customer can make a simple ticketing mistake and be pilloried for it by a TOC (and the law) as it is their responsibility to make sure they have the right ticket, yet when a TOC issues the wrong ticket it is still the customer's responsibility!

Surely the ticket printing/purchasing date was stamped on the ticket, so it can be proven you were making a journey that day?

Yes, date and time printed bottom right.

Whilst it is unhelpful, it really is your responsibility to check your tickets are correct.

I think the most you can hope for is an apology from them if you contact them specifically about the incorrect tickets being issued and don’t talk about how you travelled without a valid ticket.

Not sure how reasonable it is to expect a passenger to spot a date error on their tickets when four different members of railway staff didn't.

 

[robbeech]

Yes, date and time printed bottom right.

Not sure how reasonable it is to expect a passenger to spot a date error on their tickets when four different members of railway staff didn't.

Railway and reasonable start with the same letter, that’s where any connection ends.

 

[kristiang85]

Not sure how reasonable it is to expect a passenger to spot a date error on their tickets when four different members of railway staff didn't.

Indeed, especially when the seller specifically asks you to confirm if you are returning on the same day it is very reasonable to expect that is what they sold to you.

Luckily this isn't a case where the customer is being accused of travelling without a valid ticket, but it certainly could be the case. And given how aggressively the railway pursues those cases, it does seem rather unfair.

 

[Hadders]

I think you'll have to chalk this one up to experience, I dount you'll get anywhere with EMR or Northern and the Rail Ombudsman will simply repeat what EMR and Northern tell them.

 

[ashkeba]

I think you'll have to chalk this one up to experience, I dount you'll get anywhere with EMR or Northern and the Rail Ombudsman will simply repeat what EMR and Northern tell them.

Is there no way to stop this happening in future? Seems like a nice fine-earner: issue day returns with future dates on, then let revenue protection officers catch them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is there no way to stop this happening in future?

Double check your tickets when you buy them?

 

[Llanigraham]

Double check your tickets when you buy them?

I'm sure I've seen a notice stating to do that at a ticket office, and must admit I do always do it.

 

[Haywain]

Purchased day return tickets to Leeds from Alfreton ticket office at the beginning of January, I asked for a return to Leeds and the clerk asked for confirmation we were returning the same-day, which I confirmed.

As a matter of interest, was this ticket purchased on the day of travel?

 

[Scott W]

As a matter of interest, was this ticket purchased on the day of travel?

Yes, purchased five minutes before boarding...

 

[Haywain]

Yes, purchased five minutes before boarding...

I would guess that the ticket office clerk forgot to reset the date after dealing with a previous customer.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would guess that the ticket office clerk forgot to reset the date after dealing with a previous customer.

That’s what happened to me, a few years back I ended up with a day travelcard from Cosham dated for the next day. The guard spotted it before Chichester, he reckoned it would cause big problems at NR and TfL gatelines, but he couldn’t easily fix it, so I got off at Chichester and after some discussion the ticket office reissued it, I think they said they’d rung Cosham station to tell him. I wasn’t delayed though, as I’d been expecting to change at Barnham anyway.

 

[ashkeba]

Double check your tickets when you buy them?

It would be easier to fix every ticket office than fix every customer.

 

[shredder1]

It would be easier to fix every ticket office than fix every customer.

Hey steady on, who are they going to blame if they get their job wrong?

 

[rs101]

I would guess that the ticket office clerk forgot to reset the date after dealing with a previous customer.

I'd have thought it would have made sense for the system to default the date to the current day when selecting a day return ticket?

 

[Haywain]

I'd have thought it would have made sense for the system to default the date to the current day when selecting a day return ticket?

Why? People buy them in advance as well as on the day.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why? People buy them in advance as well as on the day.

Indeed. Be possibly even worse for a passenger to present a three week old / expired day ticket!

Not saying that the railway always gets everything right, because they don't, but with tickets, one should always check that what you've bought / been issued, is what you thought you would be getting.

 

[SteveM70]

Why? People buy them in advance as well as on the day.

Surely the vast majority of day return tickets purchased at a station ticket office are for travel on the day?

 

[Haywain]

Surely the vast majority of day return tickets purchased at a station ticket office are for travel on the day?

Yes, they are but many people prefer to buy their tickets before the day of travel as well.

To be clear, all ticket issuing systems that I have used will default to the current date for the next transaction after a transaction has concluded with a sale. The problem tends to arise when a customer has been enquiring about fares, times etc for future dates and no sale has resulted. In that situation it is not the case that the system will revert to the current date when returning to the home screen, which is generally quite helpful as you may be going there to change the station the customer is asking about.

 

[SteveM70]

To be clear, all ticket issuing systems that I have used will default to the current date for the next transaction after a transaction has concluded with a sale. The problem tends to arise when a customer has been enquiring about fares, times etc for future dates and no sale has resulted

Ah, that makes perfect sense now, thank you

 

[Titfield]

Indeed. Be possibly even worse for a passenger to present a three week old / expired day ticket!

Not saying that the railway always gets everything right, because they don't, but with tickets, one should always check that what you've bought / been issued, is what you thought you would be getting.

It does seem as if the practice of checking that we are given what we have asked for seems to be in issue!

If on the rare occasions you pay by cash do you not check the change, if you offer to pay by card do you not check that the amount on the card reader is the correct amount?

Surely the very purpose of checking is because it is a fact of life that mistakes are made?

Years ago when I worked in retail selling tickets, it was our practice to read back to the customer firstly what they had asked for and secondly again when we had issued the ticket.
We also always used to say the day of the week to try and head off "problems" where the customer had got the days / dates confused.

 

[rs101]

Yes, they are but many people prefer to buy their tickets before the day of travel as well.

To be clear, all ticket issuing systems that I have used will default to the current date for the next transaction after a transaction has concluded with a sale. The problem tends to arise when a customer has been enquiring about fares, times etc for future dates and no sale has resulted. In that situation it is not the case that the system will revert to the current date when returning to the home screen, which is generally quite helpful as you may be going there to change the station the customer is asking about.

Okay - so in this case, it was probably down to the ticket seller failing to reset the date properly before processing the sale. Something the customer should have noticed and had them correct before leaving the office.

 

[Haywain]

Okay - so in this case, it was probably down to the ticket seller failing to reset the date properly before processing the sale. Something the customer should have noticed and had them correct before leaving the office.

I would say that both the ticket seller and the customer should have noticed, but experience tells me that sometimes both fail to notice.

 

[AdamWW]

Okay - so in this case, it was probably down to the ticket seller failing to reset the date properly before processing the sale. Something the customer should have noticed and had them correct before leaving the office.

Of course one shouldn't also discount the possibility of obscure bugs, much as the providers of such software might claim otherwise.

I once got a return ticket where both halves were labelled as the outward portion.