EMR December 2020 Timetable Consultation

[cactustwirly]

Another clue to Leeds going is the removal of Alfreton and Langley Mill services from December 2020. These are currently served by the Nottingham extensions that start at Leeds.

Or EMR have decided that they want all the Leeds services to go via Sheffield and Derby

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Or EMR have decided that they want all the Leeds services to go via Sheffield

Maybe that’s it.

 

[thenorthern]

Crewe to Newark trains are nice, pre-2005 of course they ran from Crewe to Skegness mostly but they were very often delayed however with resignaling done at Derby and Nottingham that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

One thing that would be nice though is not to have all the services from Leicester to Derby and the majority from Leicester to Nottingham run as high-speed intercity trains as it can mean the trains get very congested for a short period of time.

 

[TheBigD]

I thought Lincoln to Grimsby was going to go hourly in the franchise spec did I get that wrong? 2 hourly doesn't seem that much of an improvement except that they will no longer be single car 153s.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I thought Lincoln to Grimsby was going to go hourly in the franchise spec did I get that wrong? 2 hourly doesn't seem that much of an improvement except that they will no longer be single car 153s.

Hourly from December 2021 all the way to Leicester from Grimsby

 

[TheBigD]

Hourly from December 2021 all the way to Leicester from Grimsby

Cheers!

 

[TheBigD]

Page 27 states "...an earlier Nottingham to Norwich service will now run, and will also start at Sheffield..."

The first Nottingham to Norwich service is currently at 0456 which seems pretty early already. Is this a mistake or is it meant to apply to the Sunday service where the first train is around 1240?

 

[LowLevel]

Page 27 states "...an earlier Nottingham to Norwich service will now run, and will also start at Sheffield..."

The first Nottingham to Norwich service is currently at 0456 which seems pretty early already. Is this a mistake or is it meant to apply to the Sunday service where the first train is around 1240?

I believe it is a little mixed up and refers to both Sunday getting an earlier train and weekdays have a start back to replace 1B23.

 

[153375]

Does anyone know what is the plan for the summer Saturday skegness services? Will they still be run by HSTs and what happens once they’ve been withdrawn? I can’t see them sending the bimodes to Skegness. Also can see big problems with overcrowding once the 156s get withdrawn as they have plenty of luggage space whereas the 170s don’t.

 

[TheBigD]

I believe it is a little mixed up and refers to both Sunday getting an earlier train and weekdays have a start back to replace 1B23.

Cheers!

So speculation on my part we will see...

The weekdays 1L04, 0834 Nottingham-Norwich will start at Sheffield around 0740 like it did 20 years ago under Central Trains.

Later weekday services will be just a later train from Norwich than the current 1857 departure (it's at 2050 on Sundays).

There's currently an imbalance with one less train west bound which enables the 0550 ex Norwich to be a 4 car throughout. I'm guessing this will be reduced to 2 cars with the extra peak hour Nottingham to Grantham services mentioned in the document providing the capacity in Nottingham in the morning.

The current summer Sunday earlier trains on the Nottingham-Norwich route to run all year then.

Surprised that there is no mention of plugging the current 3 hour gap on Sundays between the 1047 and 1353 west bound departures from Norwich.

Happy to be corrected though!

 

[Starmill]

Reading between the lines the 0835 Nottingham to Norwich (1L04) will start back from Sheffield instead,

It would be good if that would mean it could start calling at Ilkeston too. For those working in Nottingham city centre, Ilkeston has a fairly unattractive morning peak service, while nearby Langley Mill retains its 0824 arrival.

 

[DaveN]

The consultation document also includes the changes for Thameslink (on page 30) with the faster rush hour extra Thameslink trains going back to the originally planned patterns.

Page 7 refers to extra peak stops on the EMR Intercity services without saying what they will be.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Does anyone know what is the plan for the summer Saturday skegness services? Will they still be run by HSTs and what happens once they’ve been withdrawn? I can’t see them sending the bimodes to Skegness. Also can see big problems with overcrowding once the 156s get withdrawn as they have plenty of luggage space whereas the 170s don’t.

Class 222s will operate, whether that is in 2020 or 2021 remains to be seen, at present a small band of Senior Conductors sign HSTs and an even smaller band sign HSTs with SDO, nobody as yet signs 222s and Skegness!

 

[edwin_m]

One thing that would be nice though is not to have all the services from Leicester to Derby and the majority from Leicester to Nottingham run as high-speed intercity trains as it can mean the trains get very congested for a short period of time.

What's the issue here? In my experience, usually on Nottingham-London journeys, the people who get out at Leicester are replaced by others boarding, so the passengers get a good quality service and the extra cost to the operator is very low.

It would be good if that would mean it could start calling at Ilkeston too. For those working in Nottingham city centre, Ilkeston has a fairly unattractive morning peak service, while nearby Langley Mill retains its 0824 arrival.

The service that would naturally provide the morning commuter journey from Ilkeston is one of the HSTs from Leeds, which isn't allowed to stop there due to not having SDO (it has grandfather rights to stop at Langley Mill). So replacing this with a regional service ought to allow the extra stop. This will presumably go over to whoever operates Nottingham-Liverpool when that service leaves EMR, as it's a good stock positioning move if the units and crews are based further north.

 

[DDB]

It sounds like they are going to sort out the schedule at East Midlands Parkway to spread the London departure times better in the hour

Greatly improved spread of departure times
throughout the day.

But it is interesting that the airport is given as the rationale.

Improved spread of northbound and southbound services to help passengers and staff travel to and from East Midlands Airport throughout the day.

I believe it has always been more convient to get the bus from Derby/Nottingham stations so I wonder if this is just pr words or whether there is a plan to improve the connection from station to airport from the current expensive taxi that you have to prebook and promote it as an airport connection.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Rather lacking in detail beyond the MML proposals. It's really a MML timetable 'consultation'. And, given the standard industry timetable production timescale, (these proposals are just 12 months prior to introduction) is it really a 'consultation' at all or an 'explanation of decisions already taken'?

Regarding non MML services, it's all rather motherhood and apple pie stuff. Vague more of this, better that. Specifically for the Crewe - Derby route, how many services will go through to Newark? All, every day, or some, some days? Also how many and to how late are the 'later evening services'.

 

[DDB]

The timetable for the timetable is given in the penultimate page but I assume you are right that it is mainly an explanation of what is already decided as most/all of these plans must have been in the bid for the franchise and so presumably forms part of the contract?
There might be scope for tinkering around the edges but so much must already be set in rolling stock contracts etc I can't imagine much will change.
It is frustrating that it doesn't differentiate between weekdays and weekends.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There's a table of average journey times to St Pancras on the 'intercity' trains.
Kettering is shown as the same journey time as Leicester in each of the 4 timescales - slower than from Mkt. Harboro'.
Is this just another sloppy error?
Times from Kettering are shown in red rather than blue; under Wellingborough improvements, changes which are for the worst are in red rather than blue - is the red for Kettering an admission that the service is worse?
The average journey time from Kettering by 'intercity' should not logically include journey times on Corby electrics - maybe that's the cause of the error.

 

[Starmill]

If all EMR services from Crewe are able to run through to Nottingham, that's a big plus to my mind. It always seemed to be a big gap in the commuter and shopping market for people who want Nottingham City Centre and live along the North Staffordshire line. Furthermore it will improve connections to Nottingham from North Wales, parts of North West England and Western Scotland. A big step forward. It's probably fairly inconsequential where the service goes beyond Nottingham.

Direct trains from Grimsby to Nottingham also seems like a boon?

 

[duffield]

If all EMR services from Crewe are able to run through to Nottingham, that's a big plus to my mind. It always seemed to be a big gap in the commuter and shopping market for people who want Nottingham City Centre and live along the North Staffordshire line. Furthermore it will improve connections to Nottingham from North Wales, parts of North West England and Western Scotland. A big step forward. It's probably fairly inconsequential where the service goes beyond Nottingham.

Direct trains from Grimsby to Nottingham also seems like a boon?

Yes, from a selfish point of view, as a leisure traveller (retired staff pass) it's overall pretty good - lose direct trains to Bedford and Wellingborough but still with a good 9 minute connection at Kettering, and gain direct trains to Crewe and Grimsby plus 4tph to Derby should give better connections to the Northeast-Southwest XC trains. Also, 2tph to Attenborough (for the nature reserve) is good!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If all EMR services from Crewe are able to run through to Nottingham, that's a big plus to my mind. It always seemed to be a big gap in the commuter and shopping market for people who want Nottingham City Centre and live along the North Staffordshire line. Furthermore it will improve connections to Nottingham from North Wales, parts of North West England and Western Scotland. A big step forward. It's probably fairly inconsequential where the service goes beyond Nottingham.

Direct trains from Grimsby to Nottingham also seems like a boon?

Grimsby trains even planning to run to Leicester from the end of next year.

 

[43096]

Or EMR have decided that they want all the Leeds services to go via Sheffield and Derby

Which isn't the brightest idea as the current service enables route knowledge retention via the Erewash.

 

[Class 170101]

Quite a few errors in the document. Missing pictures, apparently Bedford passengers get XXXXed and loving the random mention of LEEDS on page 30

As expected, Kettering becomes the main interchange to link up the outer suburban and inter city services.

In general this looks like an improvement for most passengers although obviously some losers eg Wellingborough to Leicester/Sheffield. And no intercity stops for Luton Airport.

I note the 360s will be pressed into service in their current state and then refurbished, reflecting I guess the reality that Anglia don't have their replacements

The document looks decidedly unfinished with all those bits in pink plus the XXXX remarks.

Connections between north and south MML are pretty poor, two changes from Sheffield to stations south of Kettering. Nottingham not in 90 minutes springs to mind just for starters.

 

[ashkeba]

So no south midlands interchange between intercity and electrics to help them keep all the Luton airport passengers? Yet no interchange with Thameslink at Bedford with an eye on east west rail in the future, either? All seems rather short sighted but I've not got the crayons out to consider the timings.

 

[cactustwirly]

So no south midlands interchange between intercity and electrics to help them keep all the Luton airport passengers? Yet no interchange with Thameslink at Bedford with an eye on east west rail in the future, either? All seems rather short sighted but I've not got the crayons out to consider the timings.

It's all done to create the maximum benefit for the majority of Passengers, and not slowing everything done for the few.
In an ideal world, EMR would have priority over Thameslink south of Bedford and would run an additional service to Derby via Bedford.
But this isn't an ideal world

 

[MML]

Hourly semi fast services to Nottingham and Sheffield should call at Luton Airport Parkway.
Giving 15 minute interval non-stop express service between St Pancras and the airport.
Giving better connections to the East Midlands and North from stations south of Bedford.
I think they electrified the wrong bit, who wants to go to Corby except those already living there ?
A proper bus shuttle between East Midlands Airport and the station to meet the half-hourly arrivals would be a step towards an integrated transport network.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hourly semi fast services to Nottingham and Sheffield should call at Luton Airport Parkway.
Giving 15 minute interval non-stop express service between St Pancras and the airport.
Giving better connections to the East Midlands and North from stations south of Bedford.
I think they electrified the wrong bit, who wants to go to Corby except those already living there ?

Think of it as electrification to Kettering that just happens to run to Corby for a sensible off route reversing point. Probably a far better option than EMUs to Kettering with a connecting DMU...

 

[Merle Haggard]

'Not slowing down for the few'
Populations (census 8 years ago) Kettering Borough - 106,000; Wellingborough + Higham/Rushden - 88,000.
The stations in these towns are also the railheads for a large area of Northamptonshire (the next station east is Peterborough)
'Who wants to go to Corby?'
Corby was described on Radio 4 this week as 'the fastest growing town in England'. I'd suggest that the many people who move to Corby might wish to stay in contact with their families and friends.
Wellingborough station rebuilding is driven (and partly paid for) by providing access to land to the East of the railway for a (very large) housing development.
The present service (18' + 42') does not encourage travel - demand is driven by supply, so current useage is not a good indicator of the possibilities.
That's just Northamptonshire - then there's the former Bedfordshire.

 

[Class 170101]

Hourly semi fast services to Nottingham and Sheffield should call at Luton Airport Parkway.
Giving 15 minute interval non-stop express service between St Pancras and the airport.
Giving better connections to the East Midlands and North from stations south of Bedford.

So no south midlands interchange between intercity and electrics to help them keep all the Luton airport passengers? Yet no interchange with Thameslink at Bedford with an eye on east west rail in the future, either? All seems rather short sighted but I've not got the crayons out to consider the timings.

There is possibly an argument for a 15 minute service to the Airport but there should be links at Bedford for East West Rail and also towards Derby / Nottingham and Sheffield. Many people but not everyone wants to travel to / from London.

 

[Class 170101]

and the withdrawal of the Erewash (Alfreton and Langley Mill) London services. Reading between the lines the 0835 Nottingham to Norwich (1L04) will start back from Sheffield instead, the evening services being replaced by the much improved (when they turn up) Northern service. The 2137ish ECS Manchester to Notts also becomes a service train.

Doesn't help if you value through London journeys. Still I suppose it might increase the use of East Midlands Parkway if people from Langley Mill etc travel there instead.