EMR December 2020 Timetable Consultation

[MML]

There aren’t any short HSTs that stable between the peaks at Cricklewood.

I’m not convinced there is much of a market - when the Rio service was running it was usually empty north of Leicester.

Maybe they are full length units then.
There are usually 3 stabled in the north yard Monday to Friday. I was commenting on their use rather than the importance of their length.

I used the Rio service twice to get from Luton to Manchester. Both journeys were well loaded and the availability of this service linking stations north of London with Manchester actually stimulated my decision to travel. A lot to be said for stimulating new markets rather than simply dumping stock in sidings for 2/3rds of each day.

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe they are full length units then.
There are usually 3 stabled in the north yard Monday to Friday. I was commenting on their use rather than the importance of their length.

I used the Rio service twice to get from Luton to Manchester. Both journeys were well loaded and the availability of this service linking stations north of London with Manchester actually stimulated my decision to travel. A lot to be said for stimulating new markets rather than simply dumping stock in sidings for 2/3rds of each day.

The sets stabled in Cricklewood work peak services up in the morning and down in the evening. I believe the intention in 2020 is for the electrics to take up most of the extra peak loading, which tends to be from the commuter stations south of Kettering, so these workings probably won't run. Certainly the plan is to get rid of all the HSTs from December 2020, capacity will be very tight with the 222s and 180s handling the full service until the new 80x units arrive.

All the longer-distance trains will presumably also be timed for 222 or 180 so the HSTs wouldn't keep up. You couldn't just substitute one of these for a Nottingham or Sheffield working because there would then be no train to form the return working to London, unless one arrived from Manchester about the same time which wouldn't be possible with an off-peak-only service.

So any extra service to Manchester would have to justify an extra train rather than using one in marginal time, and find another path in non-standard timings through various sections which are stated to be at full capacity.

 

[Camden]

The Midland Mainline extension to Manchester was a temporary substitute for west coast main line services while work was carried out. They were popular because of the lack of alternatives. Maybe some people also preferred the HSTs, but Manchester has 3tph fast trains to London, which is already overkill at times, plus cross country services.

The Midland Mainline is and needs to be dedicated to its primary function.

 

[43096]

I used the Rio service twice to get from Luton to Manchester. Both journeys were well loaded and the availability of this service linking stations north of London with Manchester actually stimulated my decision to travel. A lot to be said for stimulating new markets rather than simply dumping stock in sidings for 2/3rds of each day.

Two journeys are hardly representative. I would also point out that they were busy south of Leicester as they took the path of the Nottingham slow service - which is why you could get it from Luton - with a connection at Leicester to Nottingham.

Anyone who thinks this service was well-used north of Leicester on a normal day (i.e. when the West Coast service was operating) is deluding themselves: I used it dozens of times and it really wasn’t.

 

[MML]

So when are the 360s arriving and Corby electrification complete ?

 

[Aictos]

The Midland Mainline extension to Manchester was a temporary substitute for west coast main line services while work was carried out. They were popular because of the lack of alternatives. Maybe some people also preferred the HSTs, but Manchester has 3tph fast trains to London, which is already overkill at times, plus cross country services.

The Midland Mainline is and needs to be dedicated to its primary function.

Indeed, instead of London to Manchester via Sheffield I would much rather see a Derby semi fast serving Luton, Kettering then stations north if it meant being able to extend a Sheffield to Leeds.

It won’t happen but I rather that then running a MML service to Manchester.

 

[Aictos]

So when are the 360s arriving and Corby electrification complete ?

Dec 2020 I think unless I’m mistaken? As that’s when the half hourly EMR Electrics start.

 

[Killingworth]

Indeed, instead of London to Manchester via Sheffield I would much rather see a Derby semi fast serving Luton, Kettering then stations north if it meant being able to extend a Sheffield to Leeds.

It won’t happen but I rather that then running a MML service to Manchester.

Didn't the Rio trains take the Dore curve to avoid Sheffield? Reversing at Sheffield adds another 15-20 minutes to through timings. Local observations suggest most Rio trains were virtually empty over this section, as had been the regular passenger trains diverted that way after the Peak route via Matlock closed. Which is why they were withdrawn.

 

[edwin_m]

Didn't the Rio trains take the Dore curve to avoid Sheffield? Reversing at Sheffield adds another 15-20 minutes to through timings. Local observations suggest most Rio trains were virtually empty over this section, as had been the regular passenger trains diverted that way after the Peak route via Matlock closed. Which is why they were withdrawn.

Yes. For at least some of the period they went via Marple too, but I think that was because the WCML works had closed Stockport.

 

[70014IronDuke]

St Pancras - Manchester Picc trains were often sparsely filled north of Derby post WCML electrification. (Probably exception were the 16.xx and 18.xx departures from Man Picc, at least to Chinley.) True. I used them on occasion, and that was my experience. These were usually Cl 45 + 7/8. Had they been 158 two car units, I dare say they would have looked nicely filled. It was also 45 years ago. They were, of course, not the only trains 45 years ago were often sparsely filled, including Derby - Birminghams that I caught regularly. Perhaps we should cut the current Derby - Birmingham services based on train loadings of 1974?

Rio trains were often sparsely filled North of Leicester. This is what I've read. Operation Rio was a fiasco in the first three months, with numerous cancellations because of lack of stock/crews and I don't know what. Hardly an encouragement to use the service. It was also, what, 15 years ago or so?
I seem to have noticed regular increase in passenger usage on numerous routes since 2004.

Please note, I'm not saying there is passenger demand to justify a direct service from St Pancras or Leicester/Derby via Dore south to Manchester - because I don't know. But to use arguments based on travel patterns of 2004-5 from a poorly operated 1 TPH service, or worse still, a 1966 - 75 Peak-hauled service of max 4-5 trains per day is, frankly, ludicrous. I'm just amazed otherwise sensible posters even think about citing such trains.

But to get this thread more back on topic, I also think to force anyone seeking to travel north from Luton/Bedford or Wellingboro to change at Kettering merely to get to Leicester or Nottingham is also ludicrous. As for, anyone going Wellingboro to say, Skipton or Huddersfield or Harrogate, facing a minium of three changes - it'll be a case of get out the car.

Yes, Wellingboro and Bedford passengers will benefit if they are going to London, I accept that's true, but for anyone going north, it's a total retrograde disaster for most normals who simply do not like to change trains, not even once.

 

[edwin_m]

St Pancras - Manchester Picc trains were often sparsely filled north of Derby post WCML electrification. (Probably exception were the 16.xx and 18.xx departures from Man Picc, at least to Chinley.) True. I used them on occasion, and that was my experience. These were usually Cl 45 + 7/8. Had they been 158 two car units, I dare say they would have looked nicely filled. It was also 45 years ago. They were, of course, not the only trains 45 years ago were often sparsely filled, including Derby - Birminghams that I caught regularly. Perhaps we should cut the current Derby - Birmingham services based on train loadings of 1974?

Rio trains were often sparsely filled North of Leicester. This is what I've read. Operation Rio was a fiasco in the first three months, with numerous cancellations because of lack of stock/crews and I don't know what. Hardly an encouragement to use the service. It was also, what, 15 years ago or so?
I seem to have noticed regular increase in passenger usage on numerous routes since 2004.

Please note, I'm not saying there is passenger demand to justify a direct service from St Pancras or Leicester/Derby via Dore south to Manchester - because I don't know. But to use arguments based on travel patterns of 2004-5 from a poorly operated 1 TPH service, or worse still, a 1966 - 75 Peak-hauled service of max 4-5 trains per day is, frankly, ludicrous. I'm just amazed otherwise sensible posters even think about citing such trains.

But to get this thread more back on topic, I also think to force anyone seeking to travel north from Luton/Bedford or Wellingboro to change at Kettering merely to get to Leicester or Nottingham is also ludicrous. As for, anyone going Wellingboro to say, Skipton or Huddersfield or Harrogate, facing a minium of three changes - it'll be a case of get out the car.

Yes, Wellingboro and Bedford passengers will benefit if they are going to London, I accept that's true, but for anyone going north, it's a total retrograde disaster for most normals who simply do not like to change trains, not even once.

There might be a justification to stop one of the Sheffields at Kettering so people from further south going to Derby and Sheffield only have one change. And I have responded to propose they stop one of the Nottinghams at Luton Airport Parkway. However stopping large numbers of bi-modes on the section served by the electrics basically isn't going to happen because it destroys the entire basis of the franchise proposal. Passengers between those stations and London will crowd the bi-modes (as they do with the Nottingham service that stops at Bedford today) and the whole premise of using shorter sets just for people going further north will fall apart. To accommodate them would mean significantly increasing the bi-mode fleet to carry fresh air north of Kettering while the electrics similarly carry fresh air further south.

The Sheffields in the off-peak pattern are all non-stop to Leicester so your Skipton/Huddersfield/Harrogate passenger has to make multiple changes today unless they catch one of the peak stops, which would only be possible by starting very early or arriving very late at the northern station.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There might be a justification to stop one of the Sheffields at Kettering so people from further south going to Derby and Sheffield only have one change. And I have responded to propose they stop one of the Nottinghams at Luton Airport Parkway. However stopping large numbers of bi-modes on the section served by the electrics basically isn't going to happen because it destroys the entire basis of the franchise proposal. Passengers between those stations and London will crowd the bi-modes (as they do with the Nottingham service that stops at Bedford today) and the whole premise of using shorter sets just for people going further north will fall apart. To accommodate them would mean significantly increasing the bi-mode fleet to carry fresh air north of Kettering while the electrics similarly carry fresh air further south.

The Sheffields in the off-peak pattern are all non-stop to Leicester so your Skipton/Huddersfield/Harrogate passenger has to make multiple changes today unless they catch one of the peak stops, which would only be possible by starting very early or arriving very late at the northern station.

I understand your arguments (I've read the thread, or most of it). Of course, the number of passengers going from Luton/Bedford/Wellingboro to Leicester/Derby/Notts/Sheffield and are limited. And further afield, even more so. I maintain, however, that this cutting of direct services - which have existed since 1857 (or 1868 in the case of Luton) is a significantly retrograde step, and will further encourage car usage. The local authorities should be up in arms and insisting on some sort of minimum service - even if it were just, say, 4 trains per day. (And yes, of course the service in 1868 probably only consisted of three trains per day which stopped at most of the many intermediate stations existent at the time.)

 

[Aictos]

Didn't the Rio trains take the Dore curve to avoid Sheffield? Reversing at Sheffield adds another 15-20 minutes to through timings. Local observations suggest most Rio trains were virtually empty over this section, as had been the regular passenger trains diverted that way after the Peak route via Matlock closed. Which is why they were withdrawn.

No idea about the Manchester Rio services but I would prefer the semi fast Nottingham to stay with Bedford and Luton Airport Parkway being replaced with Luton as the MML version of ECML's Stevenage that has a hourly LNER service to Leeds so why can't the MML have the same?

 

[43096]

There might be a justification to stop one of the Sheffields at Kettering so people from further south going to Derby and Sheffield only have one change. And I have responded to propose they stop one of the Nottinghams at Luton Airport Parkway. However stopping large numbers of bi-modes on the section served by the electrics basically isn't going to happen because it destroys the entire basis of the franchise proposal. Passengers between those stations and London will crowd the bi-modes (as they do with the Nottingham service that stops at Bedford today) and the whole premise of using shorter sets just for people going further north will fall apart. To accommodate them would mean significantly increasing the bi-mode fleet to carry fresh air north of Kettering while the electrics similarly carry fresh air further south.

The Sheffields in the off-peak pattern are all non-stop to Leicester so your Skipton/Huddersfield/Harrogate passenger has to make multiple changes today unless they catch one of the peak stops, which would only be possible by starting very early or arriving very late at the northern station.

The best they could really do would be to swap over the Nottingham fast and Sheffield semi-fast departures so that the Nottingham goes first and is first stop Market Harborough. The Sheffield could then call at Kettering to give the connections - however that depends on pathing further north to make it work. The lack of connections from Sheffield and Derby to stations south of Kettering is the biggest weakness of the proposed timetable.

 

[DDB]

The best they could really do would be to swap over the Nottingham fast and Sheffield semi-fast departures so that the Nottingham goes first and is first stop Market Harborough. The Sheffield could then call at Kettering to give the connections - however that depends on pathing further north to make it work. The lack of connections from Sheffield and Derby to stations south of Kettering is the biggest weakness of the proposed timetable.

I thought that but I think the problem with that is there is then no way to travel between Kettering and Market Harborough without having to go via Leicester or London.

 

[MML]

The Rio services I travelled on went via Sheffield and the Hope valley. Reversing at Sheffield. Sunday service southbound was packed, yet I'm sure there was also a Pendolino in the adjacent platform for Euston.
For stations north of Luton, the choice is to travel via London, drive or coach to Watford or Milton Keynes or switch to Transpennine express at Sheffield. But if travelling with a case or luggage, there are only so many changes before you abandon any hope of rail travel.
The journey either reverts to travelling by car or cancelling the trip altogether.

 

[43096]

I thought that but I think the problem with that is there is then no way to travel between Kettering and Market Harborough without having to go via Leicester or London.

The Nottingham slow calls at both as well.

 

[evergreenadam]

Agreed - instead we are getting a two coach Northern DMU (the "new" Nottingham - Wakefield Westgate - Bradford service), which won't be much use - extending the St Pancras services would be much more use.

It's a shame that the platforms at Meadowhall are so short otherwise I'd recommend an extension of the half hourly London - Sheffield service onto Meadowhall - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds (replacing the Northern DMUs).

But I can't see EMR running anything beyond what they have committed to, and I can't see any Manchester extension happening (or any justification for using MML paths to provide a Manchester service that avoids Sheffield).

I have often thought Meadowhall warrants rail services to a wider catchment area. The XC services should stop too.

 

[Killingworth]

I have often thought Meadowhall warrants rail services to a wider catchment area. The XC services should stop too.

Meadowhall is a potential Sheffield Parkway North if it had longer patforms and a multi-storey car park. An interchange with HS2 would have been worth considering.................

 

[edwin_m]

I think for this service to work, given the available paths south of Bedford, the Corby must depart St Pancras immediately behind the Nottingham. The Sheffield leaves 12-15min behind the Corby and overtakes north of Wellingborough when the Corby goes onto the Slow lines. That way when the Corby gets to Kettering there is a reasonable connection time into the next Nottingham. The same pattern would apply in reverse southbound.

If one of the Sheffields stopped at Kettering instead (or as well) then the wait from the Corby train would be close to half an hour and people going north of Leicester would end up on the same train as if they'd changed twice in the consultation timetable. Swapping a Sheffield and a Nottingham to avoid this problem leads to irregular 15/45min intervals further north.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Looking at the Wellingborough entry in the document, I noticed that it gave the 'fastest off-peak journey time' as 45 minutes; which I thought remarkable performance for a Cl. 360 (max 110 North of Bedford, 100 mph South) over 65 miles with 2 station calls. Raising this on the 360 thread, it emerged that the 45 minute timing was for a couple of non stop trains in peak time, but travelling against the peak. Off peak journeys will be 54 minutes, slower than at present.

Looking at the entry for Corby, it says 'Last departure from St Pancras 4 hours later than present timetable'. In the present timetable, the last St Pancras to Corby through train is at 19.47, but it is possible to travel later by changing at Kettering (with an 8 or 9 minute connection); the last such departure is as 22.00 from St Pancras. I take it that the wording is carefully constructed to relate only to through trains - or is there to be a Corby train leaving St Pancras after 02.00?

I'm not so familiar with the services from other stations on the line; are there any other examples of misleading information and sophistry?

 

[43055]

45 mins won't be possible after you follow a 700 on the fasts to Harpenden! You might get close when you can get up to 110/125 on the wires south of Bedford.

For the last Corby departure I would imagine it would between the current last departures from London which I think is 2308 and 0015 which if it's around 2340 would be 4 hours after the last direct service to Corby.

 

[Llandudno]

Looking at the Wellingborough entry in the document, I noticed that it gave the 'fastest off-peak journey time' as 45 minutes; which I thought remarkable performance for a Cl. 360 (max 110 North of Bedford, 100 mph South) over 65 miles with 2 station calls. Raising this on the 360 thread, it emerged that the 45 minute timing was for a couple of non stop trains in peak time, but travelling against the peak. Off peak journeys will be 54 minutes, slower than at present.

Looking at the entry for Corby, it says 'Last departure from St Pancras 4 hours later than present timetable'. In the present timetable, the last St Pancras to Corby through train is at 19.47, but it is possible to travel later by changing at Kettering (with an 8 or 9 minute connection); the last such departure is as 22.00 from St Pancras. I take it that the wording is carefully constructed to relate only to through trains - or is there to be a Corby train leaving St Pancras after 02.00?

I'm not so familiar with the services from other stations on the line; are there any other examples of misleading information and sophistry?

EMR are supposed to be introducing a later last train from Manchester to Nottingham from December.

The normal last trains are:
2042 Fast train
2228 Slower train calling at Hope Valley stations en-route

Will the promised last train be later than 2228, or does the ‘later last train’ refer to a later fast train at circa 2142?

A 2245-2315 last train would be fantastic for visiting football matches, concerts and theatres in Manchester after lockdown.

Does anyone know what the plans are and will this extra train start in December, or will it be pushed back to May 2021?

 

[43055]

EMR are supposed to be introducing a later last train from Manchester to Nottingham from December.

The normal last trains are:
2042 Fast train
2228 Slower train calling at Hope Valley stations en-route

Will the promised last train be later than 2228, or does the ‘later last train’ refer to a later fast train at circa 2142?

A 2245-2315 last train would be fantastic for visiting football matches, concerts and theatres in Manchester after lockdown.

Does anyone know what the plans are and will this extra train start in December, or will it be pushed back to May 2021?

I know that the intercity/electric changes are being pushed back to May 2021. Not to sure if the regional side will be affected but with the Crewe services extending towards Nottingham, Does this count on the 170s being in traffic by December to allow the extra units to provide the extension to the Crewe service?

 

[louis97]

EMR are supposed to be introducing a later last train from Manchester to Nottingham from December.

The normal last trains are:
2042 Fast train
2228 Slower train calling at Hope Valley stations en-route

Will the promised last train be later than 2228, or does the ‘later last train’ refer to a later fast train at circa 2142?

A 2245-2315 last train would be fantastic for visiting football matches, concerts and theatres in Manchester after lockdown.

Does anyone know what the plans are and will this extra train start in December, or will it be pushed back to May 2021?

Regional changes are also pushed back to at least May 2021.
The plan for the additional from Manchester was to convert the existing empty stock around 2140 into a passenger service.

 

[Llandudno]

Regional changes are also pushed back to at least May 2021.
The plan for the additional from Manchester was to convert the existing empty stock around 2140 into a passenger service.

So technically the announcement of a later last train from Manchester to Nottingham is not strictly true!
The 2140 currently ECS runs in service on Saturdays though.

At least it fills close on two hour gap in the service and is a faster service, why does this need to be held over to May, as the train already operates empty?

 

[louis97]

So technically the announcement of a later last train from Manchester to Nottingham is not strictly true!
The 2140 currently ECS runs in service on Saturdays though.

At least it fills close on two hour gap in the service and is a faster service, why does this need to be held over to May, as the train already operates empty?

Indeed! On a Saturday it isn't the ECS that runs in service, this will however run in passenger service, so there will be two trains to Nottingham within around 10 minutes from Manchester. On a weekday the last two arrivals at Liverpool join together to work the last service from there. On a Saturday a 2049 Liverpool-Nottingham runs using one of the units.

I cannot comment on why it cannot run in service before May, could be for a number of reasons.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Indeed! On a Saturday it isn't the ECS that runs in service, this will however run in passenger service, so there will be two trains to Nottingham within around 10 minutes from Manchester. On a weekday the last two arrivals at Liverpool join together to work the last service from there. On a Saturday a 2049 Liverpool-Nottingham runs using one of the units.

I cannot comment on why it cannot run in service before May, could be for a number of reasons.

The alteration to 5M60 (2140 Manchester to Nottingham) into 1L19 21xx Manchester to Nottingham will be Mondays to Fridays only as 1L19 (2049 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham) is currently Saturdays only. I suspect the alterations to 1L04 (0835 Nottingham to Norwich), 1R68 (1752 Norwich to Nottingham) and 1R72 (1856 Norwich to Nottingham), IE them extended to start/terminate at Sheffield, will happen when the London timetable changes.

 

[Llandudno]

Is there a reason why the planned 21xx starts from Manchester and not Liverpool like it does on Saturdays?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Is there a reason why the planned 21xx starts from Manchester and not Liverpool like it does on Saturdays?

Primarily due to crew diagramming I suppose. Converting an existing ECS run into a passenger service is pretty easy to do, whereas altering the crewing arrangements for 1L20 (2137 Liverpool to Nottingham) is a bit harder to achieve (but not impossible). I suppose its down to whatever is the cheapest and most cost effective method. To be totally honest I'm not sure there is the demand for the service starting back from Liverpool except on maybe a Friday and Saturday evening.