EMR lack of catering and first class lounges

[Skymonster]

I submitted three questions to EMR as part of the “ask a question” process… I got some interesting (but IMO unsatisfactory) answers:


Please would you advise when normal catering will be restored to the Intercity service? Please would you advise when first class lounges will reopen? Why is it that other long-distance operators (e.g. Avanti, LNER) have restored catering and reopened first class lounges but EMR has not?

As with other train operators, EMR is now funded by the taxpayer through the Department for Transport (DfT), and we have submitted our plans to resume and improve our catering offer to provide a better range of products and consistent service throughout the day. This is currently being considered by the DfT.

Regarding first class lounges, many of our station sites are quite constrained with small staff rooms, so while social distancing is still required, we need to use the lounges for additional back-of-house accommodation as we can’t fit all our team in the existing spaces.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Random answer generator for Q1 I would suggest.

 

[43066]

I submitted three questions to EMR as part of the “ask a question” process… I got some interesting (but IMO unsatisfactory) answers:


Please would you advise when normal catering will be restored to the Intercity service? Please would you advise when first class lounges will reopen? Why is it that other long-distance operators (e.g. Avanti, LNER) have restored catering and reopened first class lounges but EMR has not?

As with other train operators, EMR is now funded by the taxpayer through the Department for Transport (DfT), and we have submitted our plans to resume and improve our catering offer to provide a better range of products and consistent service throughout the day. This is currently being considered by the DfT.

Regarding first class lounges, many of our station sites are quite constrained with small staff rooms, so while social distancing is still required, we need to use the lounges for additional back-of-house accommodation as we can’t fit all our team in the existing spaces.

Re the first one trolleys are back on certain services. I’m not sure how they’re selecting which - presumably the better patronised ones.

The second answer is an accurate one. No sense filling up messrooms only to have a quarter of a depot needing to self isolate after all encountering the same Covid positive colleague! Hopefully should be less of an issue going forward.

 

[Skymonster]

Random answer generator for Q1 I would suggest.

Yes, I sense a great opportunity for TOCs to blame almost anything on DfT now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2021 ==

I have now replied to EMR

Dear EMR,

Thank you for your answers to my questions.

With respect to the restoration of catering and your actions being subject to scrutiny by the DfT, I can understand why LNER stole a march on you as it has been in public ownership for a while now. However, I am disappointed that your actions appear to have been somewhat more tardy than those of Avanti, which seems to have secured approval for the resumption of catering ahead of EMR.

As to the reopening of your first class lounges, I am sure you are as anxious as your customers for normality to return and I look forward to being able to use your lounges again with effect from July 19th when the government lifts the remaining restrictions related to the pandemic.,

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, I sense a great opportunity for TOCs to blame almost anything on DfT now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2021 ==

I have now replied to EMR

Different TOCs have different agreements under the Emergency Measures - on both EMR and SWR long distance catering was provided by an external supplier and neither has returned so far in line with the funder’s request to mitigate ‘excess costs’ this is easier with an external catering company than in house as a ‘break clause’ could be exercised.

On both LNER and Avanti as you quote, catering is in house which doesn’t mean there are potential savings to be had so it may as well be provided.

So EMR’s response is entirely correct they are awaiting the next steps from their funder, why don’t you take their response at face value, the situation with LNER or Avanti is completely different and irrelevant - it’s a bit like complaining Ryanair is offering a different level of service to EasyJet etc, different companies have different agreements and different options available to them to restrict excess expenditure - what makes you think all TOCs have the same agreement with DfT?

 

[AlterEgo]

Do we really believe EMR need some sort of government approval to dictate what food they’re allowed to sell on board? If that’s so, why have Avanti moved so quickly?

Read between the lines. Catering will be pared back on EMR permanently to a weaker offering of hot and cold drinks and snacks. Hot meals will not return, I am sure of that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do we really believe EMR need some sort of government approval to dictate what food they’re allowed to sell on board? If that’s so, why have Avanti moved so quickly?

Read between the lines. Catering will be pared back on EMR permanently to a weaker offering of hot and cold drinks and snacks. Hot meals will not return, I am sure of that.

Because EMR used an external catering supplier where contracts could be terminated to save money, Avanti catering being provided in house doesn’t provide the same opportunity to save money. You are assuming all TOCs have exactly the same contracts for the provisions of services which is far from the case.

Many different TOCs have different contacts for a whole host of different situations so there’s different solutions instructed to be followed by the funders (DfT) it’s no different to some TOCs have cleaning in house and some don’t etc.

 

[tiptoptaff]

What exactly about the response regarding messrooms and social distancing was unsatisfactory?

 

[yorksrob]

Having used their London trains on a few occasions over the past couple of months, I've been pleased to be able to make use of a buffet trolley.

The days of being able to order a substantial meal in first class however I suspect are over, given that the modern trains don't appear to have kitchen or buffet facilities like the HST's.

 

[CBlue]

Ah yes, those dastardly moustache twirling villains at EMR are clearly part of an industry-wide conspiracy to remove on board catering.

Going by posts on the topic before it very rarely covers it's costs in both logistics and staff. Why should they keep on-board catering beyond some vague concept of "intercity services" that this forum has?

 

[yorksrob]

Not to have on board catering on InterCity services would be a sign of national decline in my opinion.

 

[Taunton]

Why should they keep on-board catering beyond some vague concept of "intercity services" that this forum has?

Well one of the reasons is that First Class has a substantial premium, often two or three times what is being charged back in Standard. Gone are the old BR days when it was just 50% more. So you are paying a substantial premium for a premium service. And a significant part of what was being paid for has just been arbitrarily withdrawn without any change on what's being charged.

It does seem to be a feature of commercial and finance teams elsewhere taking advantage of Covid as well. Tourist attractions still charging full admission but half of what's inside is closed off, which you only find when you get in there.

 

[74A]

So it looks like because EMT employ contractors for their catering they have been furloughed.

I believe if you are on furlough you get paid full salary less 20%. So bringing them back would increase costs which the government are not willing to pay for at the moment?

 

[Robertj21a]

I submitted three questions to EMR as part of the “ask a question” process… I got some interesting (but IMO unsatisfactory) answers:


Please would you advise when normal catering will be restored to the Intercity service? Please would you advise when first class lounges will reopen? Why is it that other long-distance operators (e.g. Avanti, LNER) have restored catering and reopened first class lounges but EMR has not?

Not sure I can see why you were unhappy with that response, it seems perfectly understandable to me.

 

[LowLevel]

You're all barking up totally the wrong tree here with all that talk of contracts and contractors at EMR.

The Rail Gourmet/RG staff were initially furloughed.

They came back last year to undertake onboard cleaning, albeit in some cases on reduced hours, as did the EMR directly employed First Class hosts. They've also trained some hosts and service centre staff in rules to work on the depots as additional heavy cleaning resource.

For some time now catering has been back to some degree in First Class with the EMR hosts providing a modified service.

A month or two ago RG restarted a limited number of trollies as a trial, with some Liverpool - Norwich, Nottingham to Skegness and St Pancras services resuming with a view to more starting soon.

The staff themselves have actually been working away regardless of employer for a long time now.

 

[RHolmes]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2021 ==

I have now replied to EMR

I don’t know why you’re assuming the first class lounges will re-opening on the 19th July?

There will STILL be some element of social distancing for traincrew and station staff beyond July 19th. Face coverings will still be required on trains and public transport, not all railway staff have been eligible for their first vaccination let alone their second to protect them from the stronger variants that seem to be appearing and they still have the right to a safe area to take their breaks on shift

 

[roversfan2001]

I don’t know why you’re assuming the first class lounges will re-opening on the 19th July?

There will STILL be some element of social distancing for traincrew and station staff beyond July 19th. Face coverings will still be required on trains and public transport, not all railway staff have been eligible for their first vaccination let alone their second to protect them from the stronger variants that seem to be appearing and they still have the right to a safe area to take their breaks on shift

As it stands, face coverings won't be required from 19th July onwards. I make no comment on the likelihood of that being extended, but that is the position right now. All adults will have been offered a first dose by that date too (so therefore all railway staff).

It would be incredibly poor form for first class lounges to not return on 'Freedom Day'.

 

[LowLevel]

I don’t know why you’re assuming the first class lounges will re-opening on the 19th July?

There will STILL be some element of social distancing for traincrew and station staff beyond July 19th. Face coverings will still be required on trains and public transport, not all railway staff have been eligible for their first vaccination let alone their second to protect them from the stronger variants that seem to be appearing and they still have the right to a safe area to take their breaks on shift

He isn't assuming anything, he's using a passive aggressive way of replying to somebody when you think their reply is incorrect and you choose to tell them what you believe it should be in response framed as an expectation

 

[RHolmes]

As it stands, face coverings won't be required from 19th July onwards

Face coverings are still required on public transport after the 19th, but not in restaurants, shops, indoor business etc (or that was the plan for the previous June date)

 

[roversfan2001]

Face coverings are still required on public transport after the 19th, but not in restaurants, shops, indoor business etc (or that was the plan for the previous June date)

That's not what the regulations say. The law requiring face coverings on public transport was due to expire on the 15th June, then it got extended to the 21st June, now it's been extended again to the 19th July. There was meant to be a review into face coverings and social distancing but the Delta scariant delayed that one.

Once social distancing does get scrapped, it wouldn't be appropriate for the railway to continue to enforce it for staff (when it has a detrimental impact on customers, as in this case).

 

[Llandudno]

I would rather EMR concentrate on actually running all the trains that are in the timetable than worrying about First Class Lounges at the moment!

 

[CBlue]

Well one of the reasons is that First Class has a substantial premium, often two or three times what is being charged back in Standard. Gone are the old BR days when it was just 50% more. So you are paying a substantial premium for a premium service. And a significant part of what was being paid for has just been arbitrarily withdrawn without any change on what's being charged.

It does seem to be a feature of commercial and finance teams elsewhere taking advantage of Covid as well. Tourist attractions still charging full admission but half of what's inside is closed off, which you only find when you get in there.

Yet if that substantial premium doesn't cover costs....

I think EMR have bigger priorities at the moment than the relative handfuls of people using first class.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I would rather EMR concentrate on actually running all the trains that are in the timetable than worrying about First Class Lounges at the moment!

Hopefully what is detailed in this thread should help with that!

Revised EMR Regional Timetables - From 19th June

EMR are making some changes to try and be more realistic about what they can operate, it seems. 1623924766 https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/amended-timetable

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Kite159]

There was a trolley on a 180 last Friday (the one which sat down at Kettering heading south) as I saw it being pushed over to board the following London intercity train.

 

[Techniquest]

All adults will have been offered a first dose by that date too (so therefore all railway staff).

Sounds like a tall order, considering how many of my fellow colleagues are still waiting for their invite to have a vaccination.

Besides, one has to consider the bigger point that it's fine offering someone the vaccine but they have to be able to get to somewhere to have it first. When I eventually got my offer, only a handful of weeks ago, I had the disadvantage of not being able to drive affecting where I could go and when. Eventually I got a spot all the way out in Bromsgrove, which even then was 1.7 miles from the station, rather different than the NHS website describing it as close to the station...Still, I took what I could get, then when the day arrived I was in A&E! It was weeks later when I finally got the first vaccine, and that was just by chance of my local medical group finally deciding they had space for people under 50.

My point here is that we all have to fit the vaccine in around our normal day to day activities, which is not always easy to do. So just because, by your estimate, the railway staff should have all had their invites by 19th July doesn't mean they will all have had it. Never mind the fact a lot of people can't have it or don't want it for various reasons...

All this fuss over re-opening First Class lounges and having trollies back on board reminds me of how people were demanding hairdressers returned to work last year...

 

[Watershed]

Do we really believe EMR need some sort of government approval to dictate what food they’re allowed to sell on board?

You'd have to see it to believe it. The level of micromanagement is probably worse than anything the railway has ever experienced. Most if not all TOCs are being told that any expenditure that isn't an existing day to day expense must be individually authorised by their respective clients (the DfT and/or devolved/local funders).

If that’s so, why have Avanti moved so quickly?

Because, in their case, it was simply a question of rostering their catering staff to be back on trains. Which costs basically nothing. As compared to EMR who would have to sign a new contract for RG, and hand over quite a decent sum, to recommence catering.

Read between the lines. Catering will be pared back on EMR permanently to a weaker offering of hot and cold drinks and snacks. Hot meals will not return, I am sure of that.

Maybe. But I suspect such onboard catering was long unprofitable and was simply kept due it being the 'status quo'. With it being withdrawn as a result of the pandemic, and the government putting pressure on costs, it's going to be hard to justify a full return to pre Covid levels of service.

Once social distancing does get scrapped, it wouldn't be appropriate for the railway to continue to enforce it for staff (when it has a detrimental impact on customers, as in this case).

It's not going to be down to whether the railways would like to cease social distancing (it's a nuisance in almost every aspect of operations!). It's going to be down to whether that can be agreed with the unions...

 

[gallafent]

Sounds like a tall order, considering how many of my fellow colleagues are still waiting for their invite to have a vaccination.

You don't need an invitation. Don't wait. Just go to https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/ and book both there. At the time of typing, you need to be at least (nearly) 21, and as of tomorrow everyone over 18 will be able to book. So it isn't a tall order at all, it will have happened more than a month earlier than the date given in the post you were replying to (19th July).

 

[6Gman]

As it stands, face coverings won't be required from 19th July onwards. I make no comment on the likelihood of that being extended, but that is the position right now. All adults will have been offered a first dose by that date too (so therefore all railway staff).

It would be incredibly poor form for first class lounges to not return on 'Freedom Day'.

I'll put staff health above reopening lounges any time.

The first vaccination takes 2-4 weeks to reach effectiveness (and its effectiveness against the current Delta variant seems to be relatively low), then 8-12 weeks for a second vaccination, followed by 2-4 weeks for it to have its full impact.

So a first dose by 19th July certainly doesn't mean staff protection should be removed on the 20th!

 

[Andy Pacer]

You don't need an invitation. Don't wait. Just go to https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/ and book both there. At the time of typing, you need to be at least (nearly) 21, and as of tomorrow everyone over 18 will be able to book. So it isn't a tall order at all, it will have happened more than a month earlier than the date given in the post you were replying to (19th July).

Exactly. I did just that as soon as I was eligible, and could have gone the following day if I was able. And had the bonus of booking my second jab at the same time.

 

[Butts]

I'll put staff health above reopening lounges any time.

The first vaccination takes 2-4 weeks to reach effectiveness (and its effectiveness against the current Delta variant seems to be relatively low), then 8-12 weeks for a second vaccination, followed by 2-4 weeks for it to have its full impact.

So a first dose by 19th July certainly doesn't mean staff protection should be removed on the 20th!

Amazing how British Airways are able to operate Lounge Services and Onboard refreshments (in much closer proximity than on a Train the latter) without mass outbreaks of coronavirus amongst staff.

Turning to Trains Avanti are offering Lounge Services at Euston and an onboard Trolley service in 1st Class.