EMR Overcrowding

[Class 170101]

Doesn't look like anything is happening so far regards the Grand National just some extra Skegness services.

 

[modernrail]

They've not worked properly since TrainFX was installed (some were rubbish before that I'll allow). 5 plus years down the line it shows no sign of being reliably fixed especially when the units are running in multiple. Some are fine, others are not. This isn't a PA fault, it's an augmented system failing to work entirely.

The situation with units isn't good. Not helped though for example by football fans smashing them up as per Grimsby Town the other week, or last night's superb example where the guard went through their train to find it plastered from front to back with both solid and liquid human waste, now out of traffic for deep cleaning.

Is this what we have become? Seriously disgusting humans.

 

[liamf656]

Is this what we have become? Seriously disgusting humans.

Calling them humans is putting it politely! I believe it’s the same people who are responsible for the missing tables and chairs in various 170s too (if that hasn’t already been mentioned)

 

[modernrail]

Calling them humans is putting it politely! I believe it’s the same people who are responsible for the missing tables and chairs in various 170s too (if that hasn’t already been mentioned)

Vile.

I dream of a day when Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham finally get to be considered cities and the services between them inter-city so they can have TPE sized trains. That said, I was hoping that for TPE for about 20 years before it happened and so let’s keep having to argue about where the service should be 2 very old DMU carriages or 4 very old DMU carriages for years longer.

I have a soft spot for the 158’s but let’s be clear, that service should have been a proper intercity service for a long time now with at least 5 carriages and trains that almost always turn up at their proper length. Some of my most memorable ‘**** you trains l’ moments have been caused by that half assed service turning up so overcrowded you can’t get on with an hour to wait until the next one. Also some of my most unpleasant platform scrums.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The railway has a more fundamental problem, that by their own efforts they have made operation more difficult for themselves. There have been a series of new diesel trains built in recent years, but the railway seems to delight in coming up with a range of different reasons why the previous stock all has to be withdrawn in equal numbers immediately, in fact often before the new ones turn up (or they all turn up but sit in sidings for their first couple of years). Then anything which does seem to have become spare can't be used anyway because other crews don't know what the different knobs do. This was never a problem with the original diesel multiple units, because despite being built by a whole range of different manufacturers it was ensured that they all had the same controls. Even where an operator has multiple types established, saving pennies on training leads to different crews having only individual knowledge, or it being forgotten because they don't get rostered one day on one type, other days a different type, to keep their knowledge current.

Much as it paineth me to praise a GWR-ist, I fear Taunton speaketh much sense.

 

[Bikeman78]

The chances of short forming goes up too given the lack of ability to couple on a 15x if 170 availability isn't sufficient. Not sure the plan will go ahead anyway with Wumpty Rail delaying their delightful new fleet's entry into service yet again.

What's the problem with coupling 170s to other units? Other TOCs do it.

Edit: I see question has been answered but why is it an East Midlands specific problem? Don't other TOCs use train FX? There was a 150+170 in Wales just a few days ago.

 

[dosxuk]

What's the problem with coupling 170s to other units? Other TOCs do it.

Post #177

Yeah, the 15x has TrainFX fitted to it and the EMR method of work for non corridor trains relies on call for aids with a talk back facility - the two systems don't talk to each other properly so EMR won't work 15x and 170 in multi in passenger service.

 

[MattRat]

Vile.

I dream of a day when Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham finally get to be considered cities and the services between them inter-city so they can have TPE sized trains. That said, I was hoping that for TPE for about 20 years before it happened and so let’s keep having to argue about where the service should be 2 very old DMU carriages or 4 very old DMU carriages for years longer.

I have a soft spot for the 158’s but let’s be clear, that service should have been a proper intercity service for a long time now with at least 5 carriages and trains that almost always turn up at their proper length. Some of my most memorable ‘**** you trains l’ moments have been caused by that half assed service turning up so overcrowded you can’t get on with an hour to wait until the next one. Also some of my most unpleasant platform scrums.

Only way that happens is if you wipe London off the map. All that matters is London, everything else, even Birmingham, is secondary to it.

 

[STINT47]

Skegness overcrowding has already begun. At least three services heading to Skegness today have been reported as full and standing.

The 10:46 Nottinfham to Skegness full from Granthan.
The 11:46 Nottingham to Skegness full from Nottingham
The 15:46 Nottingham to Skegness full from Grantham.

 

[sleeperguy]

Would be interesting to hear what became of the liverpool crew depot plans. Is it still on ice or have they officially canned it?

 

[Fokx]

Would be interesting to hear what became of the liverpool crew depot plans. Is it still on ice or have they officially canned it?

Canned

 

[Liverpool 507]

Possibly a Meridian tomorrow perhaps?

 

[LowLevel]

Possibly a Meridian tomorrow perhaps?

Yep. Only a 5 car I believe however.

 

[Starmill]

Possibly a Meridian tomorrow perhaps?

That's quite amusing because it results in fast services from Manchester Piccadilly towards Sheffield and Nottingham at 2112, 2142 and 2153, plus the stopping service at 2228.

Although of course the 2118 Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes isn't running.

 

[Skymonster]

That's quite amusing because it results in fast services from Manchester Piccadilly towards Sheffield and Nottingham at 2112, 2142 and 2153, plus the stopping service at 2228.

Although of course the 2118 Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes isn't running.

Grand National

 

[Starmill]

Grand National

The Grand National is in Merseyside rather than Manchester but yes.

 

[liamf656]

Yep. Only a 5 car I believe however.

222015 I’ve been told on Facebook

 

[Llandudno]

That's quite amusing because it results in fast services from Manchester Piccadilly towards Sheffield and Nottingham at 2112, 2142 and 2153, plus the stopping service at 2228.

Although of course the 2118 Manchester Piccadilly to Cleethorpes isn't running.

If there are sufficient train crew available to operate them…

If there are, then I guess there won’t be many trains operating between Derby and Crewe?

 

[Skymonster]

Send a Meridian to Liverpool but not enough train crew resulting in two London services binned…. Yeah, sounds like typical EMR!

 

[LowLevel]

Send a Meridian to Liverpool but not enough train crew resulting in two London services binned…. Yeah, sounds like typical EMR!

Wouldn't make any difference, the 222 to Liverpool is I think being worked by one of the small number of Derby local side conductors who sign 222s for things like football specials, they can't go to London.

 

[dk1]

Send a Meridian to Liverpool but not enough train crew resulting in two London services binned…. Yeah, sounds like typical EMR!

Suppose they have plenty of alternatives though on the main line even if the two where connected.

 

[High Dyke]

222015 I’ve been told on Facebook

It is the unit shown as allocated to the 14:36 Etches Park - Liverpool ECS move (5Z01)

 

[liamf656]

It is the unit shown as allocated to the 14:36 Etches Park - Liverpool ECS move (5Z01)

I can’t see anything allocated to RTT but I was told it was 222015

A bit off topic but something of interest, 180111 is working Sheffield to London services to prevent any shortfall, usually 180s only work to/from Nottingham

 

[43055]

Send a Meridian to Liverpool but not enough train crew resulting in two London services binned…. Yeah, sounds like typical EMR!

After the 1433 to Matlock it is then a two hourly service for the rest of the day which is about the same time the 222 leaves Etches Park.

 

[Kite159]

I can’t see anything allocated to RTT but I was told it was 222015

A bit off topic but something of interest, 180111 is working Sheffield to London services to prevent any shortfall, usually 180s only work to/from Nottingham

Yep it was 222015. Here it was pausing briefly at Manchester Oxford Road heading towards Liverpool

 

[91108]

Yep it was 222015. Here it was pausing briefly at Manchester Oxford Road heading towards Liverpool

Does this have 2 drivers onboard, one route conducting and one that signs the traction ?

 

[Hairy Bear]

Does this have 2 drivers onboard, one route conducting and one that signs the traction ?

Derby driver being conducted on route by a Nottingham driver.

 

[91108]

Thanks.

 

[Jozhua]

The railway has a more fundamental problem, that by their own efforts they have made operation more difficult for themselves. There have been a series of new diesel trains built in recent years, but the railway seems to delight in coming up with a range of different reasons why the previous stock all has to be withdrawn in equal numbers immediately, in fact often before the new ones turn up (or they all turn up but sit in sidings for their first couple of years). Then anything which does seem to have become spare can't be used anyway because other crews don't know what the different knobs do. This was never a problem with the original diesel multiple units, because despite being built by a whole range of different manufacturers it was ensured that they all had the same controls. Even where an operator has multiple types established, saving pennies on training leads to different crews having only individual knowledge, or it being forgotten because they don't get rostered one day on one type, other days a different type, to keep their knowledge current.

Stop saying things that are sensible!

Who do you think is running the show? It's not an overnight fix. Until WMR get their junky new trains in order not much is going to happen on that front.

Every major decision is stamped by the Government. If anything they've signalled an intent to have Abellio/EMR in place for up to the next 6 years provided terms are agreed.



A 4 car 170 with 244 seats (I think it is) would still provide enough theoretical seats for most services. Friday to Monday, probably not quite enough. This does of course depend on people actually sitting next to each other and an even distribution of people between the units.

I have noticed movement in some cosmetic ways though. The EMR branding has finally been rolled out on a larger scale with signage and station repaints, presumably with the DfT Service Quality Regime due to start in a few months. I've also noticed, as it happens, Avanti have been repainting their stations.

Personally I'm hoping for a Greater Anglia style recovery from the absolute pits. We shall see!

Hopefully - 170s would be MUCH more suitable for the service, as they can load/unload quicker at very congested stations such as Manchester.

Probably would need to keep the train fully walk through though.

These things are soon forgotten. The same could have been said of the dreadful state of Greater Anglia regional routes until just over a couple of years ago, but just look at it now.

Hopefully they can stage a turnaround!

The EMT service wasn't sustainable due to the sheer lack of capacity and aging trains with little slack for any to go out of service due to technical issues.

EMR haven't had a good time due to the pandemic, terrible DFT/Treasury planning and also their own incompetence. But there is certainly scope for a turnaround. The extra 222s could provide an opportunity for capacity relief on Norwich/Liverpool and the London routes, even if a few go over to XC.

 

[QSK19]

EMR haven't had a good time due to the pandemic, terrible DFT/Treasury planning and also their own incompetence. But there is certainly scope for a turnaround. The extra 222s could provide an opportunity for capacity relief on Norwich/Liverpool and the London routes, even if a few go over to XC.

I know many people have argued - correctly IMO - why 222s are not practical to operate Norwich-Liverpool; but sometimes I do think that anything is needed in order to have enough stock to operate EMR’s services!

It seems clear that the 196 situation won’t be sorted for a while (hence no more 170/5s transferring for the foreseeable future); and, as it stands, we don’t know for sure that the 158s are staying (I think RF users with inside knowledge have confirmed that they are; but there seem to have been no announcements from EMR, DfT or rail publications). I just have the gut feeling that the 810s will come into service before the 170/5s transfer over; so, combined with the fact that Northern will need the 156s at some point, if push comes to shove, maybe the chances of some of the 222s staying to provide cover wouldn’t be completely 0% - crazier things have happened (eg I think one user in this or another thread mentioned that the 180s may stay due to EMR not having ordered enough 810s). Highly unlikely that 222s would stay to provide cover, especially on Liverpool-Norwich, but cancelled and chronically short formed services surely can’t go on forever?!