EMR Overcrowding

[43066]

I dream of a day when Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham finally get to be considered cities and the services between them inter-city so they can have TPE sized trains.

They all have intercity trains to London, which is the city that counts .

 

[dosxuk]

Highly unlikely that 222s would stay to provide cover, especially on Liverpool-Norwich, but cancelled and chronically short formed services surely can’t go on forever?!

222's have no chance of keeping to time on a full Norwich-Liverpool run due to the sprinter differentials - EMT did do a couple of test runs but IIRC there are timetabling issues with 222's running slowly through the Fens which makes any wider use all but impossible.

222's only become an option if you split the route at Nottingham, which although a DfT plan, is still unpopular and nobody seems willing to actually implement.

 

[liamf656]

We don’t know for sure that the 158s are staying (I think RF users with inside knowledge have confirmed that they are; but there seem to have been no announcements from EMR, DfT or rail publications).

Today’s Railways have made it public that all 26 158s are definitely staying. The question is, would that be enough in the short term?

 

[QSK19]

Today’s Railways have made it public that all 26 158s are definitely staying. The question is, would that be enough in the short term?

Ah ok, I stand corrected in that case. Part of me thinks it won’t be enough, especially with the ongoing delay of the 170/5 transfer.

Also, given that the 158s are 30+ years old and hence are getting that little step closer to life expiration as each day goes by, they’ll eventually start to break down and become problematic - would add to the argument that 26 isn’t enough and makes one wonder what’s going to replace them once they’ve finally kicked the bucket? 19x once their current operators want something else maybe?

 

[AndyMike]

Today’s Railways have made it public that all 26 158s are definitely staying. The question is, would that be enough in the short term?

And how long can they go on without a serious upgrade and capacity increase along the whole route?

 

[Bevan Price]

222's have no chance of keeping to time on a full Norwich-Liverpool run due to the sprinter differentials - EMT did do a couple of test runs but IIRC there are timetabling issues with 222's running slowly through the Fens which makes any wider use all but impossible.

222's only become an option if you split the route at Nottingham, which although a DfT plan, is still unpopular and nobody seems willing to actually implement.

5 coach 222s would not help between Nottingham & Liverpool - they have fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s; 7 coach 222s would be too long for some of the intermediate stations, and be expensive to operate. And 4 coach 170 formations would be a bad idea -- they also have fewer seats than a pair of 158s.

 

[morgainelive]

Realistically not going to happen. Bar the units that have already gone all that will occur is more 156s won't move to Northern for now.

Today i was on a Northern rail 156 which was in EMT red/blue livery- i was shocked given the overcrowding of EMR at the moment Liverpool to Nottingham i've seen. Surprised ny stocks been moved to Northern

 

[RailWonderer]

Why does EMR treat the Norwich Liverpool as an afterthought? It's their most important non IC route and it should get priority in each morning's unit allocation.

 

[Jozhua]

5 coach 222s would not help between Nottingham & Liverpool - they have fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s; 7 coach 222s would be too long for some of the intermediate stations, and be expensive to operate. And 4 coach 170 formations would be a bad idea -- they also have fewer seats than a pair of 158s.

Declassify 1st class.

The route should really have fixed formations of five coaches.

802s or 195s (as 5 car formation) seem like the most viable options in terms of new stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Declassify 1st class.

The route should really have fixed formations of five coaches.

802s or 195s (as 5 car formation) seem like the most viable options in terms of new stock.

It needs passing to TPE and operating with the same stock as the Cleethorpes, whatever that is (to allow interworking and stepping up). It is an incredibly poor fit for EMR.

 

[Skymonster]

It needs passing to TPE and operating with the same stock as the Cleethorpes, whatever that is (to allow interworking and stepping up). It is an incredibly poor fit for EMR.

TPE Cleethorpes is swapping to 68s and LHCS - would be very nice to have them on the Liverpool-Nottingham too!!

 

[LowLevel]

TPE Cleethorpes is swapping to 68s and LHCS - would be very nice to have them on the Liverpool-Nottingham too!!

Having had a sample recently, they look great but are bloody awful things to travel on

I'm no fan of the EMT 158 refurb but they're far more comfortable than a mk5 - the ride quality is rubbish and the seat pitch unreal, I'm quite a fan of the 195/refurbished 158 seats on Northern but the things TPE have shoe horned into these trains are awful.

Personally if I never had to work a train to Liverpool again I'd be a very happy person, but I don't fancy seeing any of my colleagues made redundant in a paper shuffling exercise so I had to get over my disappointment when the idea of more nice rural work to compensate was replaced by retaining it, and the drivers are rather more keen on it than the guards are in any case.

 

[43055]

Today’s Railways have made it public that all 26 158s are definitely staying. The question is, would that be enough in the short term?

Probably not in the short term due to the 170/156's but once all the 170's arrive I think it will be more than enough. The original number of 170's was to cover all of the regional routes except the Nottingham to Liverpool section. If this is still the case this would mean 26 158's to cover that section of the route so maybe you could have 6 car 158's with the rest of the regional services with the 170's?

Why does EMR treat the Norwich Liverpool as an afterthought? It's their most important non IC route and it should get priority in each morning's unit allocation.

So ensure all Liverpool's are 4 cars and then if there is not enough unit's to go around then cancel another service leaving a 2 to 4 hour gap at local stations. No thank you. At least by short forming a Liverpool you maintain services elsewhere and not cancelling anything.

 

[londonmidland]

‘Unfortunately, our last train this evening from Nottingham to London St Pancras is cancelled.’ Tweet here

What alternatives will be arranged for passengers who cannot make the earlier train and/or haven’t seen this message?

 

[liamf656]

What alternatives will be arranged for passengers who cannot make the earlier train and/or haven’t seen this message?

I believe they’ll take you as far as possible by rail then take up the rest of the journey by road if no more trains are running. Maybe even a taxi to Newark/Grantham if the ECML have any trains running that late

 

[Class 170101]

222's have no chance of keeping to time on a full Norwich-Liverpool run due to the sprinter differentials - EMT did do a couple of test runs but IIRC there are timetabling issues with 222's running slowly through the Fens which makes any wider use all but impossible.

222's only become an option if you split the route at Nottingham, which although a DfT plan, is still unpopular and nobody seems willing to actually implement.

In the interim the Norwich to Liverpool route may well have to be split at Nottingham to make the fleet work, Class 222s to the west and Class 158s to the east. The other route it could go on I reckon would be Crewe to Newark Castle as the Class 222 units have covered the Derby to Crewe section during Uttoxter races and cover the rest of the line on a daily basis.

 

[BJames]

I believe they’ll take you as far as possible by rail then take up the rest of the journey by road if no more trains are running. Maybe even a taxi to Newark/Grantham if the ECML have any trains running that late

Does anyone know what was arranged? That tweet now seems to have been deleted.

Also - any update on the 4 car 222s being made 5 car and a rebalancing on first class provision on the remaining 7 cars? I know there was a separate thread somewhere but seems apt to mention it given that there has been some full and standing of late.

 

[LowLevel]

Does anyone know what was arranged? That tweet now seems to have been deleted.

Also - any update on the 4 car 222s being made 5 car and a rebalancing on first class provision on the remaining 7 cars? I know there was a separate thread somewhere but seems apt to mention it given that there has been some full and standing of late.

Set reforming should be in the next couple of weeks for the May timetable change.

 

[class 9]

Passed a 6 car EMR service at Chesterfield yesterday,on a Liverpool, 158 & 2x156s.

 

[gazzaa2]

5 coach 222s would not help between Nottingham & Liverpool - they have fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s; 7 coach 222s would be too long for some of the intermediate stations, and be expensive to operate. And 4 coach 170 formations would be a bad idea -- they also have fewer seats than a pair of 158s.

Still better than the frequent 2 cars we get now on the Nottingham-Lime Street.

 

[43055]

‘Unfortunately, our last train this evening from Nottingham to London St Pancras is cancelled.’ Tweet here

What alternatives will be arranged for passengers who cannot make the earlier train and/or haven’t seen this message?

This could explain why 1C96 2030 Sheffield to Leicester (service before the last Nottingham) was extended to Kettering leaving Leicester at 2137. The 2140 Corby to London was then held at Kettering platform 2 for the arrival.

 

[IceBlue]

In the interim the Norwich to Liverpool route may well have to be split at Nottingham to make the fleet work, Class 222s to the west and Class 158s to the east. The other route it could go on I reckon would be Crewe to Newark Castle as the Class 222 units have covered the Derby to Crewe section during Uttoxter races and cover the rest of the line on a daily basis.

They’d need to keep the 4 car 222s at minimum, and I remember reading before even those overhang the level crossing somewhere (Blythe Bridge?)

Even then, running 125mph stock down a 70mph line is hardly economical and they’d need to do something with the first class section before they could be used in practice. The line suits turbos or sprinters much better. The recent raceday diagrams have been run by 4/5 car 170 pairs or 6 car 156/158 triples for Derby-Uttoxeter-SOT specials with no meridian in sight.

 

[Jozhua]

Even then, running 125mph stock down a 70mph line is hardly economical and they’d need to do something with the first class section before they could be used in practice. The line suits turbos or sprinters much better. The recent raceday diagrams have been run by 4/5 car 170 pairs or 6 car 156/158 triples for Derby-Uttoxeter-SOT specials with no meridian in sight.

GWR runs HSTs on local routes these days...

Really anything that provides some more capacity would be nice! 185s feel so much nicer when you actually sit down and don't have your face shoved in a fellow travellers armpit.

 

[Killingworth]

In the interim the Norwich to Liverpool route may well have to be split at Nottingham to make the fleet work, Class 222s to the west and Class 158s to the east. The other route it could go on I reckon would be Crewe to Newark Castle as the Class 222 units have covered the Derby to Crewe section during Uttoxter races and cover the rest of the line on a daily basis.

It must have been about 5 years ago I was speaking to a DfT employee who had knowledge of the refranchising and likely split at Nottingham. Memory says he suggested they wanted a consistent service across the Sheffield - Manchester core to include first class and catering. At that time the assumption seemed to be that TPE would get the route. (185s don't work well for effective catering along a 6 car train, and 158s fail on first class.) A lot of water keeps on flowing below that bridge! A 222 would fit those criteria as well as any other, but a bit overpowered.

 

[Class 170101]

It must have been about 5 years ago I was speaking to a DfT employee who had knowledge of the refranchising and likely split at Nottingham. Memory says he suggested they wanted a consistent service across the Sheffield - Manchester core to include first class and catering. At that time the assumption seemed to be that TPE would get the route. (185s don't work well for effective catering along a 6 car train, and 158s fail on first class.) A lot of water keeps on flowing below that bridge! A 222 would fit those criteria as well as any other, but a bit overpowered.

Not sure I see the point of catering given a lot of people bring their own food these days and the cost of onboard catering is pricey to the punter and for the operators as well it seems.

In terms of 1st Class I thought the DfT were against it as it fails to maximise seats and doesn't seem to wash its face revenue wise against the extra revenue gained by extra standard class seats and people standing.

 

[Jozhua]

First class is dying anyway - businesses and passengers are looking to cut down unnecessary spending after the pandemic/inflation and business travel is down relative to the other areas of demand.

Lots of first class carriages were almost empty pre-pandemic, now even more so.

That said - the gulf between standard and 1st is extraordinary. Prices should probably be cheaper, but then probably have to reflect the ~20%-ish reduction in capacity and extra service requirements at least.

Still, looks like generally 1st class seating is being reduced, which is good as it means fitting in more passengers overall.

 

[Killingworth]

First class is dying anyway - businesses and passengers are looking to cut down unnecessary spending after the pandemic/inflation and business travel is down relative to the other areas of demand.

Lots of first class carriages were almost empty pre-pandemic, now even more so.

That said - the gulf between standard and 1st is extraordinary. Prices should probably be cheaper, but then probably have to reflect the ~20%-ish reduction in capacity and extra service requirements at least.

Still, looks like generally 1st class seating is being reduced, which is good as it means fitting in more passengers overall.

The conversation I had was some time ago and much has indeed changed since then. The price differential for first is too great and for an hourly service not popular. It might be more attractive for a reliable half hourly service with a seat. Catering doesn't work well when the train is so crowded the trolley can't easily get aboard a busy train, let alone work through it.

One problem we haven't resolved is how to distribute loads throughout a train. I have early memories of boarding very long ECML trains at York for Newcastle and walking forward to find empty compartments at the front, the section nearest the bridge being full.

I've watched loading of EMR, TPE and Northern trains at Sheffield for Manchester. 6 coach TPE 185s and 4 coach Northern 150/6s and that walk through option isn't fully available. On EMRs 156/8s it is, however the issue remains. Passengers pile into the first coaches they see and don't walk forward.

Yesterday I saw a 4 car Northern with empty first carriage and rear full and standing. It happens every day across the network so impressions of how busy trains are can vary greatly even on the same train. At Sheffield platform staff do sometimes try to encourage better distribution.

Passenger satisfaction is greatest when seating capacity is less than 50% utilised thus allowing a choice of empty available seats. ToC and DfT are happiest at 100%.

Currently a railway organised predominantly around fairly predictable commuting and business patterns is struggling to readjust. I've only travelled first class at greatly reduced weekend rates. When the fare is 50-100% more expensive than standard it's not an option for most.

 

[gazzaa2]

First class is dying anyway - businesses and passengers are looking to cut down unnecessary spending after the pandemic/inflation and business travel is down relative to the other areas of demand.

Lots of first class carriages were almost empty pre-pandemic, now even more so.

That said - the gulf between standard and 1st is extraordinary. Prices should probably be cheaper, but then probably have to reflect the ~20%-ish reduction in capacity and extra service requirements at least.

Still, looks like generally 1st class seating is being reduced, which is good as it means fitting in more passengers overall.

First class is generally for business travel through the week and remote working/cost cutting has lessened that demand. At weekends the Premium upgrade service like on the WCML works okay in that it's not extortionate but you're basically just paying for a more comfortable seat (or any seat depending on how busy standard class is).

 

[LowLevel]

First class is dying anyway - businesses and passengers are looking to cut down unnecessary spending after the pandemic/inflation and business travel is down relative to the other areas of demand.

Lots of first class carriages were almost empty pre-pandemic, now even more so.

That said - the gulf between standard and 1st is extraordinary. Prices should probably be cheaper, but then probably have to reflect the ~20%-ish reduction in capacity and extra service requirements at least.

Still, looks like generally 1st class seating is being reduced, which is good as it means fitting in more passengers overall.

There is still some demand in some areas, it seems - I recently travelled on a weekday evening peak departure from St Pancras formed of a 7 car 222. Despite the mass over provision on those sets, every single bay of seating in first class except a couple of the few single seats had at least one occupant.

 

[dk1]

First class is generally for business travel through the week and remote working/cost cutting has lessened that demand. At weekends the Premium upgrade service like on the WCML works okay in that it's not extortionate but you're basically just paying for a more comfortable seat (or any seat depending on how busy standard class is).

Its nice to see it trickling back. Some regulars I know have been saying their companies are no longer so tight with the purse strings with anytime and first class being an option again. Good to see.