EMR Overcrowding

[robbeech]

This isn't a PA fault, it's an augmented system failing to work entirely.

Would you say that as it “isn’t a PA fault”
That this allows them to circumnavigate the ‘rule’ that a train cannot leave the depot with a PA fault? Even if the end result in terms of being able to safely announce things to passengers is that the PA doesn’t work properly?

 

[gazzaa2]

It's totally unacceptable. I wouldn't go near this service while they keep putting 2 cars on a long distance route connecting major cities.

 

[Kneedown]

With driver only preps now it’s extremely difficult to trace a PA fault, once it’s in service it really takes a passenger to tell the guard as they’ll probably not realise either. But then it takes a) a keen guard to report it and b) control to be bothered.

Both in short supply.

When it comes to 222's, Drivers don't even prep them. That's done by Bombardier, sorry Alsthom staff, who ultimately sign off the set as serviceable.

 

[robbeech]

It's totally unacceptable. I wouldn't go near this service while they keep putting 2 cars on a long distance route connecting major cities.

They've been doing it for years though. quite often things have worked out (not deliberately of course) that the busiest services end up being the 2 car ones and given this has happened for as long as i can remember so is NOT a "reduced service due to the pandemic" issue then there is very little chance this will improve moving forwards. As others have said, the removal of other services from other operators just adds to the already appalling situation. It is not uncommon for 1 full length EMR service to be cancelled due to no staff and the next one to run short formed despite there being a 4 car sat there. Infact there is a thread on that specific thing.

 

[gazzaa2]

Such a long service line like Liverpool to Norwich are extremely vulnerable to delay enroute.

You either add in huge periods of recovery time whdih increases overall journey time, or break it into smaller chunks over key sections.

Add in it this particular route being a proper cross country intercity route, which has and is being treated like a regional one adds to the problem.

Ideally you need a fixed formation five car (at least), both going half way meeting at a location in the middle where a cross platform transfer is practicable.

EMR are under huge pressure to reduce costs across the board, units with faults are long standing. There a certain faults like a PA defect are listed under defects that a unit can not leave a depot with the fault outstanding.

So say 158999 has a PA fault on Monday, it’ll often be allocated a diagram where if stays away from Hometown Depot for as long as possible to enable the unit to remain in traffic. As soon as the unit goes onto depot the fault has to be fixed before it can leave again.

Even when the Liverpool-Norwich runs full length and on time it can still be quicker to go via London (and likely a far more comfortable journey given the crowding issues).

East-West rail in the country is invariably inadequate unless you're using London to go from a to b which means hordes of people going hugely out of their way to be in London when they don't need to be there (Liverpool and Norwich both north of Birmingham).

It's been a busy Saturday morning - other TOCs have also reported overcrowding on booked length services.

Every Saturday is busy though. It's February, term time and awful weather. The demand will only rise as we get into spring/summer.

 

[AndyMike]

Would you say that as it “isn’t a PA fault”
That this allows them to circumnavigate the ‘rule’ that a train cannot leave the depot with a PA fault? Even if the end result in terms of being able to safely announce things to passengers is that the PA doesn’t work properly?

Well, as I said, my experience is that if EMR automatically withdrew all coaches with inoperable PA, there would be chaos on its network. I don’t think I’m exaggerating; it’s a really big problem, and not just on Liverpool-Norwich.

 

[londonmidland]

The 222s are absolutely awful in regards to P.A quality. Often cutting out and/or is fat too quiet.

Voyagers do not have this issue so the equipment must be different.

 

[Edgeley]

On Friday during the lunchtime period I travelled from Doncaster to Manchester. The TPE service from Doncaster should have been a through service to Manchester but terminated at Sheffield. The platform departure board at Sheffield said of the following EM Liverpool service: 'This service is reported as being busy'. I suspected this might be railway-speak for 'this train has only two carriages' and that indeed proved to be the case. There had been a prompting on the departure board for Manchester-bound passengers to await the later Northern stopping service. I, and most others, declined that advice. I was fortunate to get a seat and the EM service departed with everyone on board but with people standing down the aisles. An hourly two-car fast service: not great between two of England's biggest cities.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that EMR have got rid of too many 153's. That's what it boils down to.

 

[robbeech]

Well, as I said, my experience is that if EMR automatically withdrew all coaches with inoperable PA, there would be chaos on its network. I don’t think I’m exaggerating; it’s a really big problem, and not just on Liverpool-Norwich.

Same across the entire rail network. And whilst I’m sure people will be happy to attempt to correct me, it IS an easy fix in the grand scheme of things. The concept of microphone and speakers and amplifier is not taxing.

 

[ashworth]

I'm dreading the trip to and from Mansfield (via Nottingham) soon.... Think I might come back via Worksop and Retford!!!

It’s been terrible at weekends between Mansfield and Nottingham. Saturday afternoon trains were regularly full and standing when the full timetable of 2tph were running. Now there’s only one train an hour with occasional arguments and fights at stations when people are trying to board already crowded trains. Sadly there doesn’t appear to be any news of the missing trains being restored to the timetable for at least the next year. I’ve given up using them and catch the bus although I have heard that passenger numbers have fallen recently as many others are giving up on the inadequate unreliable service. Perhaps that’s what EMR want so that the timetable cuts can become permanent. Bring back Stagecoach or even Central Trains.

 

[bramling]

It’s been terrible at weekends between Mansfield and Nottingham. Saturday afternoon trains were regularly full and standing when the full timetable of 2tph were running. Now there’s only one train an hour with occasional arguments and fights at stations when people are trying to board already crowded trains. Sadly there doesn’t appear to be any news of the missing trains being restored to the timetable for at least the next year. I’ve given up using them and catch the bus although I have heard that passenger numbers have fallen recently as many others are giving up on the inadequate unreliable service. Perhaps that’s what EMR want so that the timetable cuts can become permanent. Bring back Stagecoach or even Central Trains.

It is surprising in many ways that with these issues being commonplace on some routes, people still attempt to use the train at weekends. My local rail service went down the toilet at weekends a decade or so ago, and I've barely used a train at weekends since. This would seem to indicate considerable suppressed demand on these EMR services, if we assume that many people who *can* abandon the train are likely to have already done so.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure it was a government body (maybe the National Audit Office) who scathingly observed it was Some Trick to consistently sell so many tickets in advance (by which they mean at the ticket office before going on the platform), at some of the highest prices for comparable rail traffic in Europe, and then provide such a minimalist service that many can't get in, and then come to the government for subsidy because it is consistently heavily loss-making.

One of the issues here with three operators and interchangeable tickets is that each thinks it's not an issue and they needn't bother because the other two can pick up the slack.

 

[Signal_Box]

But people are complaining about overcrowding on this thread and taking a unit out due to PA fault creates more overcrowding.

As a driver you can only hear the nearest speaker of the pa from the cab you test it in on 15x units as they don't have a tms. They 15x units used on the route are over 30yrs old now so things break.

I spent many a year working the 15X fleet, I know all about their unreliability unfortunately- it’s not much fun in November coming back from Portsmouth in 2C temps with no cab heating.

 

[Robertj21a]

It’s been terrible at weekends between Mansfield and Nottingham. Saturday afternoon trains were regularly full and standing when the full timetable of 2tph were running. Now there’s only one train an hour with occasional arguments and fights at stations when people are trying to board already crowded trains. Sadly there doesn’t appear to be any news of the missing trains being restored to the timetable for at least the next year. I’ve given up using them and catch the bus although I have heard that passenger numbers have fallen recently as many others are giving up on the inadequate unreliable service. Perhaps that’s what EMR want so that the timetable cuts can become permanent. Bring back Stagecoach or even Central Trains.

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the frequent bus ?

 

[wobman]

I spent many a year working the 15X fleet, I know all about their unreliability unfortunately- it’s not much fun in November coming back from Portsmouth in 2C temps with no cab heating.

Then no air con but heating working each summer but people still love 158s, they were built in 1991.....

 

[Master29]

Never mind. I'm sure GB Railways will solve everything....

 

[robbeech]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the frequent bus ?

This is one of the things I’ve often wondered. They at least used to work later than the train and whilst they take considerably longer they are far more reliable and cheaper than the train, which late at night is often a bus for the price of a train.

 

[43055]

I suspect that EMR have got rid of too many 153's. That's what it boils down to.

EMR no longer has any 153's but they couldn't be used past December anyway. I do think that the 156's need to be retained until more 170 arrive.

Will be interesting to see what happens next month for the Midlands Grand national. In previous years the Crewe route had 4 car units and 4/5 car 222's. Probably more difficult for 222's now the Crewe service goes through to Newark.

 

[142blue]

Why when the line is open from Sheffield towards Manchester do they make zero effort to run trains on a Sunday

Last week, nothing. No coaches

This week. Nothing. Least they sent coaches

The deterioration I'm seeing of our railway network is alarming and these are one of the worst offenders.

 

[Killingworth]

Why when the line is open from Sheffield towards Manchester do they make zero effort to run trains on a Sunday

Last week, nothing. No coaches

This week. Nothing. Least they sent coaches

The deterioration I'm seeing of our railway network is alarming and these are one of the worst offenders.

90 minutes by coach via the Snake Pass today then transfer to a train for onward travel. That part normally takes nearer 40 minutes.

TPE were offering a minimal service today due to their dispute and were advising users not to travel. Just as well because they couldn't get through the Hope Valley.

Northern were also stopped due to a problem in Totley Tunnel last night so they too were advising users not to travel.

All in all an EMR ticket was your best bet today between Sheffield and Manchester!

.

 

[dk1]

Never mind. I'm sure GB Railways will solve everything....

Not really sure what difference that’ll make. Hope you’re only joking.

 

[STINT47]

Why when the line is open from Sheffield towards Manchester do they make zero effort to run trains on a Sunday

Last week, nothing. No coaches

This week. Nothing. Least they sent coaches

The deterioration I'm seeing of our railway network is alarming and these are one of the worst offenders.

EMR are still running the reduced strike timetable on Sunday's so no trains west of Sheffield.

When i asked why the timetable had not been restored as the industrial action was resolved weeks ago i was advised due to Covid causing low passenger numbers and high staff absences, this is also the reason for the missing catering.

 

[dk1]

EMR are still running the reduced strike timetable on Sunday's so no trains west of Sheffield.

When i asked why the timetable had not been restored as the industrial action was resolved weeks ago i was advised due to Covid.

Good job the guys & gals at sister TOC Greater Anglia are running a full regional timetable with no staffing issues & even with bigger trains in the last couple of years are suffering with severe crowding on weekends between Norwich & Ely due partly to GEML engineering works but also no EMR services.operating.

 

[Killingworth]

EMR are still running the reduced strike timetable on Sunday's so no trains west of Sheffield.

When i asked why the timetable had not been restored as the industrial action was resolved weeks ago i was advised due to Covid causing low passenger numbers and high staff absences, this is also the reason for the missing catering.

Passenger numbers being zero because there are no trains may then be used as justification for not running any future trains!

 

[LowLevel]

Good job the guys & gals at sister TOC Greater Anglia are running a full regional timetable with no staffing issues & even with bigger trains in the last couple of years are suffering with severe crowding on weekends between Norwich & Ely due partly to GEML engineering works but also no EMR services.operating.

Except of a weekend when they're not running to Liverpool St and my 158 gets inundated at Ely with people from London to Norfolk who've travelled via Cambridge

 

[Master29]

Except of a weekend when they're not running to Liverpool St and my 158 gets inundated at Ely with people from London to Norfolk who've travelled via Cambridge

Surely quicker to go via Liverpool Street.

 

[dk1]

Except of a weekend when they're not running to Liverpool St and my 158 gets inundated at Ely with people from London to Norfolk who've travelled via Cambridge

Not often that’s happened lately. 158s been rare as hens teeth at Ely on a Sunday lol

 

[ashworth]

Wouldn't it be easier to just use the frequent bus ?

I think that is what I said I was doing!
However, very sad that passengers are having to give up on the train and use the bus instead. The Robin Hood Line, especially the southern section, has been a reopening success story, with passenger numbers exceeding all expectations over the past 20-30 years. Such a shame that EMR have reduced the daytime frequency by half when passengers should be returning to the trains following Covid. Also disappointing that there are no immediate plans to restore the frequency that had run successfully for over 20 years.

Evening bus services between Nottingham and Mansfield on the direct Stagecoach Pronto route are no longer as frequent as they were. The last buses are now quite a bit earlier than the last trains

 

[philthetube]

Even when the Liverpool-Norwich runs full length and on time it can still be quicker to go via London (and likely a far more comfortable journey given the crowding issues).

East-West rail in the country is invariably inadequate unless you're using London to go from a to b which means hordes of people going hugely out of their way to be in London when they don't need to be there (Liverpool and Norwich both north of Birmingham).



Every Saturday is busy though. It's February, term time and awful weather. The demand will only rise as we get into spring/summer.

loads of journeys do not have tickets available via London, Sheffield London for example, so all packed on 170's when via London would be the sensible way to go.