EMR to retain Liverpool to Nottingham

[Bletchleyite]

It's a push-pull set so can turn around as quickly as a DMU. But I'm not sure how the performance compares with a 158.

Decidedly quicker off the mark than a 158. The only thing that gets close is an EMU or one of those pint-sized HSTs, or maybe a 195 comes close.

 

[northernchris]

I'm not keen on them either when they pass through Leeds after midnight (at any time, really). Must be even worse for people on that side of the station - I'm north of the river and it's quite loud when idling at the platform, let alone when it launches. I'd prefer it if they could chalk this one down to experience, and order more 802s.

I live near to the station and whilst you do notice the 68s going past more than other trains, I haven't (so far!) been woken up by them.

 

[Class 170101]

and apparently there’s been a few complaints at Redcar that the locals aren’t happy with the noise at night and have been launching projectiles at 185 units in and on approach to the sidings.

The locals might want to stop that as it wil give the DfT an excuse to cull the service on performance grounds and terminate at Middlesbrough permanently.

 

[Fokx]

The locals might want to stop that as it wil give the DfT an excuse to cull the service on performance grounds and terminate at Middlesbrough permanently.

I believe that is exactly what some of the locals want.

I was told that locals have been shouting on the lines of “Get back to Manchester, we don’t want you here” by a CI to traincrew and over the last few weeks there’s been several incidents of IEED pulled at Middlesbrough and Redcar in the evenings including 4 on one 185 around 7pm (which I’m assuming is to prevent the train moving further or into the sidings)

 

[Haywain]

DfT can now dictate capacity and rolling stock policy while the franchises have been suspended

This was already happening - it’s been a major problem with franchising for many years.

 

[DB]

This was already happening - it’s been a major problem with franchising for many years.

XC being a case in point - capacity remains inadequate because the DfT has done nothing to address it.

Other examples include the IEP, which the DfT imposed on the GW and ECML.

 

[BeHereNow]

This was already happening - it’s been a major problem with franchising for many years.

Understood, but the DfT didn't specify any of the stock for the East Midlands, TransPennine or Northern franchises.

 

[DB]

Understood, but the DfT didn't specify any of the stock for the East Midlands, TransPennine or Northern franchises.

The DfT is never consistent!

I would guess that 158s are perhaps most likely, given that (so far as I am aware) those have nowhere to go at present, and being the existing stock no training would be required.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Understood, but the DfT didn't specify any of the stock for the East Midlands, TransPennine or Northern franchises.

They did, hence the 2007 issues surrounding EMT struggling to provide capacity on the Liverpool route with trains cut down from 3 to 5 vehicles to 2 vehicles.

 

[Killingworth]

Understood, but the DfT didn't specify any of the stock for the East Midlands, TransPennine or Northern franchises.

They may not have done, but they had a preference for the Liverpool-Nottingham route to be operated with units that could offer catering throughout the train and first class. 158s don't have first and you can't take a trolley through or walk to a fixed buffet in a 6 car 185.

After COVID that's possibly now academic. We may end up without both first and catering!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that is exactly what some of the locals want.

I was told that locals have been shouting on the lines of “Get back to Manchester, we don’t want you here” by a CI to traincrew and over the last few weeks there’s been several incidents of IEED pulled at Middlesbrough and Redcar in the evenings including 4 on one 185 around 7pm (which I’m assuming is to prevent the train moving further or into the sidings)

To be fair, I can completely understand the issue people have with the racket and pollution from running diesel engines when the vehicle is not moving, and there really needs to be legislation to prevent this and require the installation of shore supplies, as are more the norm in other countries. I do get that knackered old heritage DMUs needed leaving running as otherwise they wouldn't start, but that just isn't true of a modern DMU.

Electrification is of course the real solution, but in the meantime leaving engines idling for more than a couple of minutes, particularly at night, when no passengers are on board is simply an unacceptable practice and needs to be outlawed.

 

[Anvil1984]

To be fair, I can completely understand the issue people have with the racket and pollution from running diesel engines when the vehicle is not moving, and there really needs to be legislation to prevent this and require the installation of shore supplies, as are more the norm in other countries. I do get that knackered old heritage DMUs needed leaving running as otherwise they wouldn't start, but that just isn't true of a modern DMU.

Electrification is of course the real solution, but in the meantime leaving engines idling for more than a couple of minutes, particularly at night, when no passengers are on board is simply an unacceptable practice and needs to be outlawed.

I think we are over-estimating the issue here. The units are in the sidings at Redcar for about 12 minutes (less if the signaller playing nice) not a longer time which would be an issue and not left overnight. By the time you stop the engines at one end, walk through restart them, get the whole cab set up again (as theres more electronics which required you to be keyed in) and ready in case you're allowed out of the loop early the engines would be stopped for about 2 minutes

 

[2L70]

I believe that is exactly what some of the locals want.

I was told that locals have been shouting on the lines of “Get back to Manchester, we don’t want you here” by a CI to traincrew and over the last few weeks there’s been several incidents of IEED pulled at Middlesbrough and Redcar in the evenings including 4 on one 185 around 7pm (which I’m assuming is to prevent the train moving further or into the sidings)

What’s a CI and IEED? Think the latter is a pass com but not sure.

 

[BeHereNow]

They did, hence the 2007 issues surrounding EMT struggling to provide capacity on the Liverpool route with trains cut down from 3 to 5 vehicles to 2 vehicles.

To clarify, the existing franchises.

 

[ChrisC]

We don’t yet know what stock will be used by EMR between Nottingham and Liverpool and it is still presumed that the route will be split at Nottingham. One advantage of it remaining with EMR could be regarding fares. Reasonably priced Day Returns are still available from Nottingham, Alfreton and Chesterfield to Manchester unlike from Sheffield where TPE withdrew these some time ago. How long would it have been before TPE withdrew them along the whole route. Also for anyone who is travelling across Nottingham reasonably priced Advance tickets for journeys like Chesterfield to Norwich are more likely to remain if both halves of the route are operated by the same TOC. Perhaps there is slightly more chance of the connection at Nottingham being held for a few minutes if both halves are operated by EMR although doubtful on today’s railway.

 

[Killingworth]

We don’t yet know what stock will be used by EMR between Nottingham and Liverpool and it is still presumed that the route will be split at Nottingham. One advantage of it remaining with EMR could be regarding fares. Reasonably priced Day Returns are still available from Nottingham, Alfreton and Chesterfield to Manchester unlike from Sheffield where TPE withdrew these some time ago. How long would it have been before TPE withdrew them along the whole route. Also for anyone who is travelling across Nottingham reasonably priced Advance tickets for journeys like Chesterfield to Norwich are more likely to remain if both halves of the route are operated by the same TOC. Perhaps there is slightly more chance of the connection at Nottingham being held for a few minutes if both halves are operated by EMR although doubtful on today’s railway.

Pre-COVID one of the Saturday morning problems on the Hope Valley between Sheffield and Manchester was that Northern were undercutting TPE. At that time TPE's 3 coach 185s were rammed full, and so were Northern's 2 coach 142s! An EMR 4 coach 158 (hopefully all 4 coaches 158s, not a 153 or 156) was the best option.

Since early March (the irony!) TPE have been providing 6 coaches, and Northern have mostly managed 4, usually 150s but with a 156 or 158 from time to time. Plenty of capacity now.

Early days for more details as the TOC change hasn't been officially announced yet! Lots of consequent planning to come after that.

 

[Mugby]

Is there really any prospect of EMR using 222s on Nottm - Liverpool at some point in the future when they come off London services?

Taking a 4-car set for example, what would happen to the First Class section, would it be re-seated or just declassified?

 

[DDB]

I suppose the question is has the DfT decided not to go through with the whole change or has it decided to go through with the change but chosen EMTs bid to run the service over TPs?
I still think it seems much more sensible to run the route from bases in Sheffield and Liverpool than Nottingham.
If the new plan is to run it using 222s will the higher top speed allow faster services anywhere or is it all constrained by the infrastructure? How many units will they need?
If it is EMT I wonder if they will need to come up with a 4th brand?

 

[joenffc]

Is there really any prospect of EMR using 222s on Nottm - Liverpool at some point in the future when they come off London services?

Taking a 4-car set for example, what would happen to the First Class section, would it be re-seated or just declassified?

4 car set is a lot less capacity than 158s, wouldn't be good

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

4 car set is a lot less capacity than 158s, wouldn't be good

Let’s not forget there are more five carriage units though, and carriages can be shuffled around to make a small fleet of longer Meridians. I do, however, hope that the 158s are withdrawn, else the promise of a wholly new fleet was a bluff

 

[Bletchleyite]

4 car set is a lot less capacity than 158s, wouldn't be good

New thread created for speculating about stock: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...erpool-notts-what-stock-could-be-used.208118/

 

[Fokx]

What’s a CI and IEED? Think the latter is a pass com but not sure.

CI - Conductor Instructor

IEED - Internal Emergency Egress Device (the green handles)

 

[notadriver]

I suppose the question is has the DfT decided not to go through with the whole change or has it decided to go through with the change but chosen EMTs bid to run the service over TPs?
I still think it seems much more sensible to run the route from bases in Sheffield and Liverpool than Nottingham.
If the new plan is to run it using 222s will the higher top speed allow faster services anywhere or is it all constrained by the infrastructure? How many units will they need?
If it is EMT I wonder if they will need to come up with a 4th brand?

i don’t think there are many places they could use their higher top speed to much advantage on that route ?

Decidedly quicker off the mark than a 158. The only thing that gets close is an EMU or one of those pint-sized HSTs, or maybe a 195 comes close.

i would say the performance of the 68 / mk5 sets is about the same as a 185. However their dwell times are longer and they take a bit longer to ‘get’ going than a 185. The brakes take some getting used to too. A 185 is more agile in that respect. Compared to a 158, a definite improvement but I think on that route 158s operate within their capabilities ?

 

[323235]

Actually the plan was to keep all of the 185’s and use them on the service as there is no requirement to change the core traction at Manchester and Sheffield depots. Additionally the original plan/bid was Nova 3 but due to delays in delivery, traction training and trying to find solutions to limit noise, this was changed to 6 car 185’s.

From my following of the situation in Modern Railway TPE were keeping 29 x 185s long term (with 16 until December 2020 following COVID, that subsequently rose to 22). When did the temporary fleet become permanent?

 

[Fokx]

From my following of the situation in Modern Railway TPE were keeping 29 x 185s long term (with 16 until December 2020 following COVID, that subsequently rose to 22). When did the temporary fleet become permanent?

Apollogies for any confusion here, My posting was merely of an intended plan and not something that is/was completely set in stone. Due to the covid and EMR route situation I couldn’t possibly comment on what is now going to happen because honestly it’s changing by the week!

We are still keeping a large number of 185s permanently and returning a number in December however.

 

[SuperNova]

From my following of the situation in Modern Railway TPE were keeping 29 x 185s long term (with 16 until December 2020 following COVID, that subsequently rose to 22). When did the temporary fleet become permanent?

TPE are actually keeping 36 not 29 185s in order to help run double sets as standard.

However, I'm led to believe that the service is only remaining with EMR for the time being. Very possible that it could transfer over to another operator in the next few years.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to post any suggestions/ideas/speculation in the appropriate forum section, thanks

Feel free to create a new thread if there isn't one already.

Here are some relevant threads which members may find of interest:

• Now EMR are confirmed as operators of Liverpool-Notts, what stock could be used?
• Thoughts on how to solve the issues relating to Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich route
• Which company would you think will takeover the Liverpool-Nottingham Section of EMR Regional's Liverpool-Manchester-Nottingham-Norwich Route?

 

[LowLevel]

TPE are actually keeping 36 not 29 185s in order to help run double sets as standard.

However, I'm led to believe that the service is only remaining with EMR for the time being. Very possible that it could transfer over to another operator in the next few years.

It is to be "reviewed once the COVID threat" has diminished. See what happens in the end!

 

[323235]

TPE are actually keeping 36 not 29 185s in order to help run double sets as standard.

However, I'm led to believe that the service is only remaining with EMR for the time being. Very possible that it could transfer over to another operator in the next few years.

Well a minute ago they were keeping them all further up the thread, so we've at least got what appears to be a more accurate number then now. I'm sure it was originally 29 if it has been uplifted to 36 (it does seem to have been a rapidly changing situation).

 

[Killingworth]

Liverpool - Norwich is a nightmare for any operator with performance targets to meet. The following are just the trains that run all the way. Manchester area delays are worst, but there are many others. EMR management could be excused if they weren't all that keen on retaining the western leg. These figures are with low passenger numbers and many trains still missing. That nightmare continues.

Last 4 weeks Liverpool - Norwich

Last 4 weeks Norwich-Liverpool