EMT and First Class.

[Mugby]

It seems that the First Class section on EMT's London services can be anywhere nowadays.

This is in contrast to previous practice when efforts were made to position First at the London end, even to the extent of turning stock on the Lenton Triangle during the small hours to achieve the desired position. Also, of course, the First Class Lounges at Derby, Leicester, etc. were built at the southern end of the platforms to reflect this.

Is the old practice something they can't be bothered with anymore?

 

[LowLevel]

It seems that the First Class section on EMT's London services can be anywhere nowadays.

This is in contrast to previous practice when efforts were made to position First at the London end, even to the extent of turning stock on the Lenton Triangle during the small hours to achieve the desired position. Also, of course, the First Class Lounges at Derby, Leicester, etc. were built at the southern end of the platforms to reflect this.

Is the old practice something they can't be bothered with anymore?

I guess it's just not a great use of resources when the sets reverse as often as they do (particularly the HST sets) - they run a lot more trains than they used to under Intercity and even the earlier years of Midland Mainline.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It seems that the First Class section on EMT's London services can be anywhere nowadays.

This is in contrast to previous practice when efforts were made to position First at the London end, even to the extent of turning stock on the Lenton Triangle during the small hours to achieve the desired position. Also, of course, the First Class Lounges at Derby, Leicester, etc. were built at the southern end of the platforms to reflect this.

Is the old practice something they can't be bothered with anymore?

I don't think that has ever really been true. The Midland Mainline has two triangles - Nottingham/Derby/Leicester and Nottingham/Derby/Sheffield - and an alternative way into Sheffield. These lead to sets being turned all the time. It's not realistic to keep everything the same way round and in my 20+ years of living in the area I have never seen anything different. (Obviously, I've not been doing exhaustive research for all that time!)

 

[yorksrob]

I prefer it when 1st is at the country end.

 

[robbeech]

The Nottingham HSTs seem to frequently 1st at Country end, infact whilst i am sure there have been many occasions i don't remember ever catching one in reverse to this. I have found it odd, being country end at London, and being furthest from the lounge at Nottingham. But i understand the issues they might have keeping them the right way around. The very early and very late services to Sheffield go via Barrowhill so end up the opposite way.

 

[yorkie]

The 1815 St Pancras to Sheffield (2016 from Nottingham) whenever I do it is always 1st at the front out of St Pancras, meaning Standard is leading out of Nottingham. I think this is deliberate due to the short platforms at stations such as Alfreton.

Does anyone know what would happen if it was the other way round (in particular if anyone wanted to take a bike to or from a station with a short platform) as I'd guess it probably happens from time to time?

 

[Starmill]

It doesn't concern me where first is at all really, but if it isn't always in the same place then it really does need to be displayed on screens and announced where it will be!

 

[yorkie]

In my experience of EMT managed stations, eg. Derby, it is most likely to be at the opposite end to that stated by the departure boards.

 

[Master29]

It`s not just EMT though is it. GWR regularly do this but to be honest it doesn`t bother me much.

 

[jimm]

It`s not just EMT though is it. GWR regularly do this but to be honest it doesn`t bother me much.

I wouldn't say it is 'regular' on GWR. Reverse formations do happen, but there appears to be a standing policy that at the earliest opportunity a set will be turned so that first class is back at the London end of the train. Easily done overnight at the HST depots in Bristol, Swansea and Plymouth thanks to the track layouts in those areas.

 

[Mugby]

In my experience of EMT managed stations, eg. Derby, it is most likely to be at the opposite end to that stated by the departure boards.

Absolutely. along with other mis-information which is displayed and announced, particularly at Derby.

I wouldn't say it is 'regular' on GWR. Reverse formations do happen, but there appears to be a standing policy that at the earliest opportunity a set will be turned so that first class is back at the London end of the train. Easily done overnight at the HST depots in Bristol, Swansea and Plymouth thanks to the track layouts in those areas.

This is what I was getting at: If a much larger TOC such as GWR has a policy, it surprises me that a lesser one which claims 'big on customer service' no longer bothers. Sure some trains reverse at Nottingham but only a minimal number nowadays and the stock was always in the correct position when most of them worked through to Sheffield.
It doesn't bother me because I don't use first class but it probably would if I had to exit the lounge and negotiate a crowded platform to reach the opposite end. It seems to me like a cost cutting measure!

 

[yorksrob]

Why is it "good customer service" to have first class at the London end ?

When first is at the country end, fewer people are going to traipse down the end of the platform, so you've more chance of a bit of peace and quiet.

 

[ooo]

Why is it "good customer service" to have first class at the London end ?

When first is at the country end, fewer people are going to traipse down the end of the platform, so you've more chance of a bit of peace and quiet.

It means people who have often paid more have less of a walk and are able to leave to train at their destination faster

 

[yorksrob]

It means people who have often paid more have less of a walk and are able to leave to train at their destination faster

And here's me thinking that 1st was about having some peace and quiet and a bit of room to relax.

 

[LowLevel]

It's not as easy as it used to be though - all the 222s that go ECS Derby to Nottingham and Lincoln get turned in the morning. Anything that finishes at Nottingham and goes ECS to Derby gets turned. For route retention at least one HST goes Derby to Neville Hill via Trent and Alfreton. Several HSTs do Leeds - Nottingham - London and vice versa.

That's a hell of a lot of units buggering about changing ends (and in the case of HSTs and double 222 sets having to get down on to the cess to do so) on the mainline triangles at Trent and Lenton.

Previously the morning peak business trains from Nottingham would actually reverse in platform 2 at Loughborough on their empty stock moves from Derby to use 671 dolly to access the down slow if they were in reverse formation but this stopped decades ago.

 

[jimm]

This is what I was getting at: If a much larger TOC such as GWR has a policy, it surprises me that a lesser one which claims 'big on customer service' no longer bothers. Sure some trains reverse at Nottingham but only a minimal number nowadays and the stock was always in the correct position when most of them worked through to Sheffield.
It doesn't bother me because I don't use first class but it probably would if I had to exit the lounge and negotiate a crowded platform to reach the opposite end. It seems to me like a cost cutting measure!

But as I noted, a large part of GWR's HST fleet spends the night at places where a train can just be sent into the depot or depart from the depot using a route/shunt that gets it 'right way round' again. It could even be done at Worcester (three HSTs stable there most nights and IETs will in future) but I believe GWR drivers don't currently sign the complete triangle there, though that may change with the establishment of a drivers' depot in Worcester.

LowLevel has noted the issues EMT faces - not half as straightforward as it is for GWR.

 

[Hairy Bear]

It seems that the First Class section on EMT's London services can be anywhere nowadays.

This is in contrast to previous practice when efforts were made to position First at the London end, even to the extent of turning stock on the Lenton Triangle during the small hours to achieve the desired position. Also, of course, the First Class Lounges at Derby, Leicester, etc. were built at the southern end of the platforms to reflect this.

Is the old practice something they can't be bothered with anymore?

We never used the Lenton triangle to turn these overnight, Derby stabled ones were turned via Loughborough/Trent and Neville Hill stabled ones via Stourton /Wakefield. The practise stopped 20 years ago when driver numbers were reduced to the bare minimum.
It could still be done on a limited basis now, but severely constrained by current route knowledge and platform /route availability for ecs trains at Sheffield and Nottingham.

 

[43074]

For (HST) peak trains in many ways it is better having Standard at the London end because with most stations on the MML you enter the station at the London end, so you end up with a more even distribution of passengers throughout Standard Class, rather than having standing passengers in Coach E and plenty of seats available in Coach A when First Class is at the front.

 

[tiptoptaff]

GWR don't have a particular policy to turn reverse sets and don't go out of their way to do so. There are plenty of sets that come off in reverse and spend the day like that. They will be eventually get turned, but there is no policy to do so.

There is a rumour internally that it will be a more pressing issue for IETs with Hitachi incurring a fine if a set is reversed (except in times of disruption where diversions cannot help it)

 

[jimm]

Well policy or not, reverse rake HSTs aren't that common on GWR, are they? Or 180s with coach E at the Paddington bufferstops end -I've ridden on about two reversed 180s in the past five years.

So people somewhere within the organisation are doing something about turning sets when needed

I wouldn't for a minute expect anyone to try to turn a set during a working day - there isn't the time - but all the depots except Old Oak are well placed to do it overnight, thanks to those local track layouts.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

but all the depots except Old Oak are well placed to do it overnight, thanks to those local track layouts.

I thought they sent them on the triangular route via Greenford and West Ealing or vice versa.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think there is anywhere on the GWR network where HSTs will routinely be reversed - even ECS between Bristol and Cheltenham or beyond (if such ever operates) will be the right way round in Paddington when reversal at Gloucester is taken into account. So the sets will probably all be the same way round in the depot, except after a diversion (and not even most of the most usual diversions).

Whereas an HST entering leaving Neville Hill or a 222 leaving Derby will end up the opposite way round at St Pancras if it runs via Nottingham, and similarly in the evening. There's no easy way to turn them round at St Pancras, to do so at Sheffield would involve a longer journey via Beighton, and although one could be turned on the Lenton triangle in Nottingham they'd be pushed to do so in the normal turnaround time of 30min or so. So a common circumstance such as two units swapping proposed diagrams before they leave the depot will leave both the wrong way round for the whole day.

 

[superhands]

I think you could turn them Between Cricklewood curve jn and Brent curve jn subject to route knowledge.

 

[jimm]

I thought they sent them on the triangular route via Greenford and West Ealing or vice versa.

They can, but it's a bit more of a trip than just going round the triangles right next to the depots at Laira and Landore, or varying the direction of approach to or departure from the depot at Bristol.

 

[LowLevel]

The 1815 St Pancras to Sheffield (2016 from Nottingham) whenever I do it is always 1st at the front out of St Pancras, meaning Standard is leading out of Nottingham. I think this is deliberate due to the short platforms at stations such as Alfreton.

Does anyone know what would happen if it was the other way round (in particular if anyone wanted to take a bike to or from a station with a short platform) as I'd guess it probably happens from time to time?

Just a coincidence - they can and do run anyway round. If first is leading at a short platform station (Long Eaton, Market Harborough, Langley Mill, Kettering (As of recently) and Beeston are all regular short platform stations, they can also call as a contingency at Wellingborough platform 3 and Belper on occasion) bikes generally get placed in the buffet car at the counter end the most appropriate stop before the station in question.

 

[sheff1]

Why is it "good customer service" to have first class at the London end ?

When first is at the country end, fewer people are going to traipse down the end of the platform, so you've more chance of a bit of peace and quiet.

Indeed. I much prefer it when first class is at the northern end. No drunks etc traipsing through (or even sitting down) on leaving St Pancras and no streams of people coming through ready to get off from Luton onwards southbound.

 

[Wookiee]

There is a rumour internally that it will be a more pressing issue for IETs with Hitachi incurring a fine if a set is reversed (except in times of disruption where diversions cannot help it)

I'm intrigued by this. Why would Hitachi cop a fine for what is essentially an operational problem? Is it written into their contract that the sets have to be 'right way' when service begins each day?

 

[221129]

I'm intrigued by this. Why would Hitachi cop a fine for what is essentially an operational problem? Is it written into their contract that the sets have to be 'right way' when service begins each day?

Because it is their depots the trains should be staying at over night.

 

[Roast Veg]

The "problem" is exacerbated in 9/10 car 222 formations, where first class can and is in any combination of front and rear, front and middle, middle and rear, and middle. At Leicester the announcements are often correct, even for 222s. It surprises me that Derby would be so consistently wrong.

 

[edwin_m]

Somewhat ironic that MML doesn't have first class in any consistent position. If they could keep it at the London end it would also be near the exit at two of the other main stations, Leicester and Nottingham. On most other routes the non-London stations are termini with exits behind the buffers or through stations with exits somewhere in the middle.