EMT hst move Cricklewood to Kings Cross

[westcoaster]

There was a hst move today 3D10 0930 cricklewood depot to kings cross http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O78737/2018/03/07/advanced. Seems to then operate 1D11 to Leeds. Is this being leant to VTEC for a round trip in it’s booked down time. Or on loan due to shortages.

 

[Adam0984]

It's on loan because VTEC have quite a few 91s out of service due to the cold weather last week. They have 2 EMT sets and 2 90 hauled sets out today

 

[D365]

Electronics failures or something else on the 91s?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Electronics failures or something else on the 91s?

In 1991, the 91s couldn't cope with the snow being sucked into the cooling vents

 

[cactustwirly]

It technicaly isn't "spare", I think it's on diagram NL081. Which does a round trip to Nottingham, it then spends the rest of the day sat at Cricklewood, then forming an evening service to Leeds.
I suspect its doing a round trip to Leeds while it would be sat at Cricklewood, which is a good use of stock.

I don't think EMT has many "spare" HSTs to lend out, with only 11 HST sets to cover 8 diagrams M-F.

 

[Qwerty133]

It technicaly isn't "spare", I think it's on diagram NL081. Which does a round trip to Nottingham, it then spends the rest of the day sat at Cricklewood, then forming an evening service to Leeds.
I suspect its doing a round trip to Leeds while it would be sat at Cricklewood, which is a good use of stock.

I don't think EMT has many "spare" HSTs to lend out, with only 11 HST sets to cover 8 diagrams M-F.

If they can make a bit of money from spot hire they think nothing of short forming services so I'm sure they'd find ways to free up at least a handful of HSTs if they could be paid for hiring them out.

 

[mallard]

East Midlands Trains had several short-formed services today... Isn't it great to see a TOC getting their priorities straight and putting their passengers' interests first...

 

[bb21]

East Midlands Trains had several short-formed services today... Isn't it great to see a TOC getting their priorities straight and putting their passengers' interests first...

Leaving aside the regional services, mainline short-formed services are all down by 1 coach, in order to avoid passengers on another route being down by, say, 8-9 coaches?

An excellent bit of joined up thinking imo. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Qwerty133]

Leaving aside the regional services, mainline short-formed services are all down by 1 coach, in order to avoid passengers on another route being down by, say, 8-9 coaches?

An excellent bit of joined up thinking imo. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If it was still nationalised yes but as it isn't TOCs need to maximise their own service level (especially in cases such as this when absolutely zero EMT passengers or passengers on EMT routes could be remotely effected by the alternative) rather than maximise their profits

 

[cactustwirly]

East Midlands Trains had several short-formed services today... Isn't it great to see a TOC getting their priorities straight and putting their passengers' interests first...

As I said, as part of its usual diagram, the HST would otherwise spend the day sat idle at Cricklewood for most of the day. So it's kinda unrelated to the short forms.

If it was a spare taken from the depot at the same time as short forms, then it would be completely unacceptable.
But it wouldn't surprise me, it is Stagecoach who spend as little as possible on EMT and milk all the profit.

 

[robbeech]

Leaving aside the regional services, mainline short-formed services are all down by 1 coach, in order to avoid passengers on another route being down by, say, 8-9 coaches?

An excellent bit of joined up thinking imo. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Exactly this.

If they think about it they can keep things moving relatively well, if not someone gets a rough deal and they can shoot themselves in the foot. If they didn’t sensibly cooperate then they might pick up passengers for the evening Leeds service themselves making their services overcrowded.

 

[43096]

As I said, as part of its usual diagram, the HST would otherwise spend the day sat idle at Cricklewood for most of the day. So it's kinda unrelated to the short forms.

If it was a spare taken from the depot at the same time as short forms, then it would be completely unacceptable.
But it wouldn't surprise me, it is Stagecoach who spend as little as possible on EMT and milk all the profit.

With VTEC suffering a Class 91 availability crisis, this is a great piece of cross-company cooperation. Not just Stagecoach, but NR route cleared for HST at short notice (48hrs) and ROG provided route trained crews to make this happen.

It would have been very easy to do nothing. But they didn’t and have done the right thing to give the best overall service to passengers.

Big well done to everyone who made it happen.

 

[Timrud]

Huge well done to EMT for seeing the bigger picture

 

[cactustwirly]

Huge well done to EMT for seeing the bigger picture

Really! They didn't see the "bigger picture", they just got paid a load from VTEC. This is because EMT would rather maximise it's own profits over providing a decent service to it's passengers.

 

[LA50041]

Really! They didn't see the "bigger picture", they just got paid a load from VTEC. This is because EMT would rather maximise it's own profits over providing a decent service to it's passengers.

What cancellations were as a result of this? How were ENT passengers not given a "decent Service "?

 

[222001]

Really! They didn't see the "bigger picture", they just got paid a load from VTEC. This is because EMT would rather maximise it's own profits over providing a decent service to it's passengers.

I'm not quite sure what EMT could have done? The HST set would have just been sat at Cricklewood anyway.

 

[222001]

Although saying that, I've just checked short formations today, and there's a 5 car 222 covering for a HST on 1C22 0746 SHF-STP/1F63 1825 STP-SHF, due to a HST being hired in by VTEC...

 

[whhistle]

As @Qwerty133 said, great if it's a nationalised railway, but it isn't.

Yes, Stagecoach run both franchises, so great for cross boundary thinking and all that, but do they share profits too? No. I didn't think so. Are they using East Midlands profits to prop up Eact Coast? No, I didn't think so.

I can see the merit in the idea, but I don't see any other industry where this happens as much. I'm sure I've seen a couple of airlines do it in the past but bus companies don't, cruise lines don't either. Hell, even local councils don't share bin lorries or whatever.

Yes perhaps they should, but each company are "each to their own" - maybe shooting themselves in the foot, yes, but why should passengers using East Midlands have one coach short to help out a bunch of strangers using another railway line? I rarely see East Coast trains helping out East Midlands...

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

 

[robbeech]

As @Qwerty133 said, great if it's a nationalised railway, but it isn't.

Yes, Stagecoach run both franchises, so great for cross boundary thinking and all that, but do they share profits too? No. I didn't think so. Are they using East Midlands profits to prop up Eact Coast? No, I didn't think so.

I can see the merit in the idea, but I don't see any other industry where this happens as much. I'm sure I've seen a couple of airlines do it in the past but bus companies don't, cruise lines don't either. Hell, even local councils don't share bin lorries or whatever.

Yes perhaps they should, but each company are "each to their own" - maybe shooting themselves in the foot, yes, but why should passengers using East Midlands have one coach short to help out a bunch of strangers using another railway line? I rarely see East Coast trains helping out East Midlands...

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

I’m sure VTEC would be happy to lend EMT a 91 whenever they need one........

 

[LA50041]

Yes perhaps they should, but each company are "each to their own" - maybe shooting themselves in the foot, yes, but why should passengers using East Midlands have one coach short to help out a bunch of strangers using another railway line? I rarely see East Coast trains helping out East Midlands...

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

You're not going to marshall a single coach out of one set and into another at Cricklewood/St Pancras and back in later.
The set was sitting at Cricklewood all day between working an up peak working an a down peak working, so was put into a revenue earning situation instead of sitting idle.

Or are you saying that the set should have been broken up to make the other sets that were running with 1 coach short up to full strength and cancel 2 peak workings?

 

[bb21]

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

Why should it not? I for one am glad this still happens for the greater good.

For the record, I am actually standing on the 1825 tonight due to it running 5 vice 8, but still think it's a great move. This train isn't normally that busy, especially towards the front (less than half full in Coach A at the front like yesterday) so if it had to be one, this diagram is a good candidate, compared to potentially a full train being cancelled on a peak ECML service out of KGX.

Surprisingly they didn't pull the Luton call today, as they normally do on a short-form, and put it on the 1830 instead, but hey ho, it's standing room only only to Luton, once in a blue moon, so hardly a big deal.

 

[whhistle]

I’m sure VTEC would be happy to lend EMT a 91 whenever they need one........

Clearly not... but it's not like EC don't have HSTs...

 

[Ianno87]

Clearly not... but it's not like EC don't have HSTs...

A smallish fleet of HSTs that do have to cover quite a lot... Hull, Harrogate, Lincoln, Sunderland, Aberdeen, Stirling and Inverness, and covering for how stretched the 91+Mk4 fleet is.

 

[whhistle]

Yea - the point has been missed...

 

[43096]

Really! They didn't see the "bigger picture", they just got paid a load from VTEC. This is because EMT would rather maximise it's own profits over providing a decent service to it's passengers.

Oh do drop the anti-EMT nonsense - it has zero basis in fact. This has probably cost Stagecoach overall, with the extra costs of route clearance and hiring crew from ROG for the ECS move.

 

[goblinuser]

As @Qwerty133 said, great if it's a nationalised railway, but it isn't.

Yes, Stagecoach run both franchises, so great for cross boundary thinking and all that, but do they share profits too? No. I didn't think so. Are they using East Midlands profits to prop up Eact Coast? No, I didn't think so.

I can see the merit in the idea, but I don't see any other industry where this happens as much. I'm sure I've seen a couple of airlines do it in the past but bus companies don't, cruise lines don't either. Hell, even local councils don't share bin lorries or whatever.

Yes perhaps they should, but each company are "each to their own" - maybe shooting themselves in the foot, yes, but why should passengers using East Midlands have one coach short to help out a bunch of strangers using another railway line? I rarely see East Coast trains helping out East Midlands...

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

Firstly, I despise your disgusting attitude. Secondly, businesses cooperate all the time, otherwise no one would get anywhere. Two companies, offering a similar service, leases an asset to another temporarily without affecting their service, and it allows both services to continue. Everyone benefits from this transaction, customers, companies, and the railway.

 

[JB_B]

As @Qwerty133 said, great if it's a nationalised railway, but it isn't.

..... Hell, even local councils don't share bin lorries or whatever....

Clue: Yes, they do.

We don't live in the world where we share like this any more.

Yes, we do.

 

[Ianno87]

Yea - the point has been missed...

No it hasn't. VTEC's HST fleet is probably too thinly spread at the moment (even in normal circumstances) to loan to EMT. I don't believe there are any peak-only VTEC diagrams (possibly a unique TOC?)

If they genuinely had one spare they probably would lend one if there was a suitable financial arrangement in place.

EMT have a spare that sits on Cricklewood most of the day...might as well get it earning...

 

[Qwerty133]

No it hasn't. VTEC's HST fleet is probably too thinly spread at the moment (even in normal circumstances) to loan to EMT. I don't believe there are any peak-only VTEC diagrams (possibly a unique TOC?)

If they genuinely had one spare they probably would lend one if there was a suitable financial arrangement in place.

EMT have a spare that sits on Cricklewood most of the day...might as well get it earning...

Other than the HSTs loaned to EC this week haven't been spare and EMT services have been short formed as a result of the loan. If it was actually about cross TOC co-operation at the very least EC could loan EMT some HSTs during engineering works on the ECML instead of the current situation of expecting the normal level of capacity to take significantly more passengers.

 

[43074]

Why should it not? I for one am glad this still happens for the greater good.

For the record, I am actually standing on the 1825 tonight due to it running 5 vice 8, but still think it's a great move. This train isn't normally that busy, especially towards the front (less than half full in Coach A at the front like yesterday) so if it had to be one, this diagram is a good candidate, compared to potentially a full train being cancelled on a peak ECML service out of KGX.

Surprisingly they didn't pull the Luton call today, as they normally do on a short-form, and put it on the 1830 instead, but hey ho, it's standing room only only to Luton, once in a blue moon, so hardly a big deal.

Those peak services which are being short formed seem reasonably well chosen, e.g. the 1715 London to Nottingham the other day was 7 vice 8 and generally empties out a fair bit at Luton, and you have alternatives at 1657 (Leicester only) and 1730; equally the 0600 Sheffield to London has alternative services available within 10 minutes of it at every station South of Leicester, so if there is crowding there are alternatives available.

On the other hand services between London and Leeds are half hourly at the best of times with far fewer alternatives available in the event of a cancellation, if an EMT set is hired out to prevent this happening you still benefit a significantly greater number of passengers even in the off peak than you inconvenience on the MML by running 7 (or even 5) vice 8.