ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

[wildcard]

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader .
As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it the next time he saw me he wouldn't let me travel .
This was a Saturday - most definitely the pass is valid .
Possibly a co-incidence but I can't help feeling some TfL manager has asked the troops to challenge people flashing bus drivers non Oyster compatible travel permits as part of the effort to fill the funding black hole.
Perhaps they need to do their homework first.

Edit - I have now complained to TfL . 1st instance was the 186 at Harrow & Wealdstone , the 2nd was the 282 at Northwood.

 

[transportphoto]

Evening,

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had this experience - possibly wise to make contact with Transport for London customer services to highlight the issues. Information such as date, time, route, location, etc. will assist them identifying the driver(s) and ask the operator to provide retraining. If TfL aren’t aware of the issue, they can’t reasonably be expected do anything to prevent reoccurrence. I very much doubt it’s a TfL management directive to reject such passes.

TP

 

[Busaholic]

TfL Staff Guide to Fares and Ticketing, last updated 1/3/21, page 21 on ENCTS passes makes no mention of Oyster but rather identifies the salient details of a valid card to be visually recognised by the driver. That indicates to me that those drivers were wrong to threaten to deny travel, but maybe TfL should amend the entry to indicate those cards are not to be presented to the Oyster reader.

 

[L401CJF]

This isn't limited to London I'm afraid, I found the training for tickets and passes particularly poor during my time in the industry.

Stagecoach Merseyside (Wirral) are particularly good at wanting their drivers to be militant regarding passes, however they were training us wrong details.

Main one being taught is that Merseytravel Saveaways (bus train and ferry day passes) issued on rail tickets arnt valid on their services and are "rail only" as they say "Rail Ranger" on the bottom - despite saying Merseytravel Saveaway All Zone or similar on them. I had this out with management when I worked there and was told I was wrong, despite the Merseytravel bus drivers guide to tickets and passes saying they are valid.

Arriva train them as valid (which they are). I was recently out with a friend from Yorkshire who was travelling on a Rail ticket style Saveaway and got knocked back on a Stagecoach bus. I showed the driver my Arriva staff card, explained they are valid and that he was in the wrong, he even knew who i was (as a former colleague) but refused to accept it. My friend got his bank card out to pay for a single but I refused to let him. In the end he let him travel.

I got off in the bus station and went to the Merseytravel counter and asked them to confirm its valid. The woman confirmed it is valid and if stopped again tell them to actually read the ticket!!

I wrote in to Merseytravel that night with photos of the ticket and explained that I had previously worked there and that their training is wrong. It was passed on to the operations manager at Stagecoach Birkenhead and don't know if training has improved since then - I doubt it has.

Sorry I've gone off on a tangent here, but passengers shouldn't have to argue the validity of a perfectly valid ticket. Training on the buses is unfortunately very poor.

 

[duncanp]

I am going to London on February 26th, and I will be using my ENCTS disabled persons bus pass to travel on TfL bus services.

If any bus driver tries to deny me travel they will have to call the police to remove me, and there will be consequences.

 

[TTS]

Evening,

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had this experience - possibly wise to make contact with Transport for London customer services to highlight the issues. Information such as date, time, route, location, etc. will assist them identifying the driver(s) and ask the operator to provide retraining. If TfL aren’t aware of the issue, they can’t reasonably be expected do anything to prevent reoccurrence. I very much doubt it’s a TfL management directive to reject such passes.

TP

TfL ought to be well aware that acceptance of ENCTS passes within defined times is a statutory obligation and it is their responsibility to ensure contracted operators and therir staff are regularly reminded of this.

What is baffling is why Oyster readers have not been adapted to read ITSO-standard cards like ENCTS passes.

 

[Typhoon]

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader .
As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it the next time he saw me he wouldn't let me travel .
This was a Saturday - most definitely the pass is valid .
Possibly a co-incidence but I can't help feeling some TfL manager has asked the troops to challenge people flashing bus drivers non Oyster compatible travel permits as part of the effort to fill the funding black hole.
Perhaps they need to do their homework first.

Happened to me once, a good five years ago so nothing new. Driver having a bad day, new in the job, don't know. Surely they realise that there are red buses in areas where most pass holders will not have an oyster compatible card but the 'red rose' card that the majority of pensioners have? To be honest, if the driver looks at the card, it is the exception as far as I am concerned. If he saw you again, he would not let you travel - he clearly spends most of his time on school buses.

What is baffling is why Oyster readers have not been adapted to read ITSO-standard cards like ENCTS passes.

Money?

 

[Goldfish62]

TfL ought to be well aware that acceptance of ENCTS passes within defined times is a statutory obligation and it is their responsibility to ensure contracted operators and therir staff are regularly reminded of this.

What is baffling is why Oyster readers have not been adapted to read ITSO-standard cards like ENCTS passes.

It was attempted a few years ago. All the readers had software updates. It went live but was withdrawn a few days later. Not heard anything since about it being fixed.

All London bus drivers are issued with a copy of the "Big Red Book" which despite its name is pocket-sized.

I quote from Page 151:

Tickets and passes that customers show the driver: ENCTS pass. Older and disabled people across England can travel free anywhere on London's bus network with the ENCTS pasd. It looks similar to a Freedom Pass, but it does not currently work on Oyster readers, so holders must show it to you. Press the "other passes" button once to record each customer with this kind of pass.

There then follows two sample photos plus a description of things to look out for.

Incorrect non-acceptance is down to the individual driver. It's well known that ENCTS don't work on the readers, but are valid.

 

[PeterC]

TfL ought to be well aware that acceptance of ENCTS passes within defined times is a statutory obligation and it is their responsibility to ensure contracted operators and therir staff are regularly reminded of this.

What is baffling is why Oyster readers have not been adapted to read ITSO-standard cards like ENCTS passes.

Considering London's bus ridership compared with the rest of the country and the fact that Oyster was already in place surely ENCTS cards should have been Oyster compatible.

OK I am not being entirely serious but Oyster was there first.

So far I have had no problem showing my ENCTS pass on TfL services. The OP gives no details so we don't know how widespread this is . It could be a simple training issue at one depot or a TfL wide edict to smarten up on checking people who quickly wave pieces of plastic at the drivers.

 

[extendedpaul]

I experienced this in Hornchurch last week. I showed the card and was asked to put it on the validator, I did so but told the driver I didn't think it would be accepted which of course it wasn't. He waved me on, not sure if he realised the correct procedure or just couldn't be bothered to pursue the matter.

I have noticed that London bus drivers very rarely press a button when shown my ENCTS pass - does that mean TFL get no revenue from its use ? Some drivers don't even nod an acknowledgement and they never say thank you as they often do outside London.

 

[Goldfish62]

I have noticed that London bus drivers very rarely press a button when shown my ENCTS pass - does that mean TFL get no revenue from its use?

That's correct. TfL get reimbursement from London Councils for ENCTS acceptance during the statutory period, ie from 0930.

 

[TTS]

That's correct. TfL get reimbursement from London Councils for ENCTS acceptance during the statutory period, ie from 0930.

Presumably the London Boroughs pay a fixed sum which may explain why recording pass usage on-bus is not rigorously followed?

 

[Metroman62]

When I used my disabled ENCTS card on London buses a few years ago, most drivers just waved me through, but one asked me to tap in, which did not work. He then carefully looked at my card and then said ok. Do the ENCTS cards look like London TFL Freedom Cards? This might explain why drivers want you to tap in.

But it's not just TFL readers that don't read ENCTS cards. My West Yorkshire ENCTS card (which is a disabled pass that allows a companion to travel with me within the West Yorkshire region and requires a West Yorkshire based driver to press a button to accept my pass) fails to be read by most East Yorkshire buses and sone Ariva buses (Outside West Yorkshire). It's disappointing that ALL the buses can't read the National valid cards, which thus makes it harder for drivers to work out what is a valid pass.

 

[Goldfish62]

Presumably the London Boroughs pay a fixed sum which may explain why recording pass usage on-bus is not rigorously followed?

I might be wrong but I believe it's the same as outside London, ie number of passes recorded.

 

[TTS]

I might be wrong but I believe it's the same as outside London, ie number of passes recorded.

In which case, a great many ENCTS passes are not being recorded in London based on observation on my travels. This may explain a new enthusiasm for doing just that.

When I used my disabled ENCTS card on London buses a few years ago, most drivers just waved me through, but one asked me to tap in, which did not work. He then carefully looked at my card and then said ok. Do the ENCTS cards look like London TFL Freedom Cards? This might explain why drivers want you to tap in.

But it's not just TFL readers that don't read ENCTS cards. My West Yorkshire ENCTS card (which is a disabled pass that allows a companion to travel with me within the West Yorkshire region and requires a West Yorkshire based driver to press a button to accept my pass) fails to be read by most East Yorkshire buses and sone Ariva buses (Outside West Yorkshire). It's disappointing that ALL the buses can't read the National valid cards, which thus makes it harder for drivers to work out what is a valid pass.

Freedom Passes now follow the ENCTS pass designs (they didn't in earlier years) with the issuing authority being the "London Boroughs". They are exactly equivalent to the ENCTS pass with the same statutory validity. However, local 'enhancements' often apply which are limited to local cards. In London, the Freedom Pass is valid on the tube but non-London ENCTS passes aren't.

Virtually all electronic ticket machines are ITSO-compliant these days so they should all recognise an ENCTS pass. The selective non-reading of your pass may be in relation to the "companion" facility in some way.

 

[Goldfish62]

As you can see, Freedom Passes and ENCTS are the same design:

 

[SouthernR]

The government guidance (2010) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - defines the standard pass layout.

Specification
1.28 When the ENCTS was introduced in 2008 a new England-wide ENCTS pass design was introduced so that bus drivers throughout England could recognise at a glance that an ENCTS pass holder was eligible for free travel.

1.29 The ‘Concessionary bus travel (permits)(England) regulations 2008’ set out the specification of the England-wide ENCTS passes. TCAs are responsible for producing passes that comply with the standard design as specified in the regulations for their concessionaires.

1.30 The regulations set out the position and format of the standard elements of the ENCTS pass - the holder’s photograph, their name, the expiry date, the hologram, the unique identifying number, the ITSO logo, the rose logo, and the ribbon background. They also require ENCTS passes to be ITSO smartcards. This means that, where bus companies have installed ITSO smart readers on their buses, the passes will be read electronically. Where buses don’t have ITSO readers, the passes will simply be shown to the driver.

1.31 The ENCTS pass features an expiry date which must be no more than 5 years from the date of issue. Whilst the maximum life of a pass is 5 years from the date of issue, there is no recommended minimum life.

1.32 The ENCTS pass has a hologram, which acts as a security feature and a deterrent to fraud and counterfeiting. The hologram is supplied by the DfT to ensure that every hologram is identical. The hologram comprises the rose logo and ribbon design as follows:

If the London smart card readers cannot read other authorities' passes, this is presumably a software or data security problem. Perhaps this is just too low on the list of priorities, or perhaps the scheme is liable to be withdrawn?
I've only used my pass locally and in London, where I've never been questioned.
Do Londoners have any problem away from home?

 

[PeterC]

The government guidance (2010) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - defines the standard pass layout.


If the London smart card readers cannot read other authorities' passes, this is presumably a software or data security problem. Perhaps this is just too low on the list of priorities, or perhaps the scheme is liable to be withdrawn?
I've only used my pass locally and in London, where I've never been questioned.
Do Londoners have any problem away from home?

I used the Oxford Park and Ride with a friend from London yesterday. The Freedom Pass registered on the reader without problem.

 

[Goldfish62]

The government guidance (2010) - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - defines the standard pass layout.


If the London smart card readers cannot read other authorities' passes, this is presumably a software or data security problem. Perhaps this is just too low on the list of priorities, or perhaps the scheme is liable to be withdrawn?
I've only used my pass locally and in London, where I've never been questioned.
Do Londoners have any problem away from home?

Oyster readers can read ITSO smart cards loaded with a travelcard, contactless bank cards and accept a huge range of mobile payments, so it's not as if they're not versatile or adaptable. As I said earlier there was a failed software upgrade to attempt to get them to read ENCTS so it must be something specific to ENCTS rather than the broader ITSO.

Freedom Passes are ITSO compatible so holders have no issues using them outside London.

 

[TTS]

Oyster readers can read ITSO smart cards loaded with a travelcard, contactless bank cards and accept a huge range of mobile payments, so it's not as if they're not versatile or adaptable. As I said earlier there was a failed software upgrade to attempt to get them to read ENCTS so it must be something specific to ENCTS rather than the broader ITSO.

Freedom Passes are ITSO compatible so holders have no issues using them outside London.

It is about different smart ticketing standards. The Oyster readers can read (1) TfL proprietary Oyster-standard cards loaded with a Travelcard, PAYG etc and (2) EMV-standard cards and devices (mobiles etc) (contactless payment). Whether they can also read (3) ITSO-standard cards (and devices) is questionable; the DfT is supposed to have worked with TfL to ensure they do. The only ITSO cards usable on TfL services are ENCTS passes. Freedom Passes (ENCTS) incorporate both ITSO and Oyster capability.

 

[Hophead]

It all seems a long time ago that I was commuting, but my Southern Key Card had a Travelcard loaded and I certainly had a few bus rides during its period of validity.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is about different smart ticketing standards. The Oyster readers can read (1) TfL proprietary Oyster-standard cards loaded with a Travelcard, PAYG etc and (2) EMV-standard cards and devices (mobiles etc) (contactless payment). Whether they can also read (3) ITSO-standard cards (and devices) is questionable; the DfT is supposed to have worked with TfL to ensure they do. The only ITSO cards usable on TfL services are ENCTS passes. Freedom Passes (ENCTS) incorporate both ITSO and Oyster capability.

SWR Smartcards and other TOC Smartcards loaded with a travelcard work on Oyster readers.

 

[TTS]

So the issue is indeed ENCTS on ITSO.

 

[Goldfish62]

So the issue is indeed ENCTS on ITSO.

Yes.

 

[mattdickinson]

I seem to remember (but I could easily be wrong) that the issue had something to do with bus route numbers with letter prefixes.

 

[Deerfold]

I seem to remember (but I could easily be wrong) that the issue had something to do with bus route numbers with letter prefixes.

That seems to be very unlikely. Relatives with ENTCS passes visiting me have no trouble using the M4 past my house.

 

[Busaholic]

Oyster readers are regarded by TfL as 'old' (i.e. outdated) technology awaiting replacement, though the date for this presumably gets extended by their existential financial crisis. The experiment with trying to 'read' the ENCTS pass, having seemingly failed, was probably not worth persevering with, both because certain politicians discuss withdrawing the pass and the bad P.R. from refusing elderly and disabled the free travel they are entitled to. Like other posters, I have no intention of being refused legal access to a TfL bus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you can see, Freedom Passes and ENCTS are the same design:

Except the Freedom Pass clearly says Freedom Pass on it!

 

[ajs]

I used my ENCTS bus pass on TFL buses a couple of times in the last few days.

Tapping the card on the reader, showed invalid card and driver just shook his head to wave me on, never looked at the card.Never spoke a word it looked at me.

Second one asked me to show card, which l did and then waived me on.

Last time l used the pass in London, was several years go and the travelling inspectors boarded wanting to see Oyster Cards etc. No ticket had been given when l boarded with my pass but Inspectors were happy with the ENCTS pass.

 

[TTS]

Oyster readers are regarded by TfL as 'old' (i.e. outdated) technology awaiting replacement, though the date for this presumably gets extended by their existential financial crisis. The experiment with trying to 'read' the ENCTS pass, having seemingly failed, was probably not worth persevering with, both because certain politicians discuss withdrawing the pass and the bad P.R. from refusing elderly and disabled the free travel they are entitled to. Like other posters, I have no intention of being refused legal access to a TfL bus.

It depends whether TfL receive a fixed sum reimbursement from the London Councils (who are obliged to pay for ENCTS pass use for journeys starting within the London area) or not. If it is a fixed sium, it matters not how many passes are accepted or who issued them (London Boroughs or non-London local authorities). In that circumstance, it may not be worth getting the software fixed other than it would provide an idea of how many non-London passses are being used. But if TfL receive reimbursement based on the number of journeys made by ENCTS passholderts (irrespective of who issued the pass), it might matter.

Except the Freedom Pass clearly says Freedom Pass on it!

The overall design (red rose, blue stripe for elderly, orange for disabled etc) is the same for all ENCTS passes, save that the indiviudal issuing authority's name appears at the top (and they are encoded with that). The Freedom Pass tag is perpetuated because the earlier (pre-ENCTS) passes used that name. There are one or two other examples elsewhere in England. The issuing authority (London Boroughs) is shown underneath.