End of SWT Franchise?

[antharro]

Don't the DfT focus on train capacity? You can get more passengers standing in a set space than sitting.

Happy to be proved wrong, although that would probably mean TOCs would change 3+2 to 2+2 but keep the same width seats to allow more standing room - ergo fewer seats!

I recall in the end days of the 442s with SWT, going to a meet the manager session and being repeatedly told by a SWT manager that they had a commitment to the DfT to increase seat capacity, which I read to be the number of seats on a train, and not standing room.

 

[transmanche]

Don't the DfT focus on train capacity? You can get more passengers standing in a set space than sitting.

You can, hence for their metro routes, SWT refurbished their 455s with 2+2 seating and large standback areas by the doors - which is fine for short journeys. But the 450s and 458s are used on longer journeys, where standing for the complete journey would be less acceptable - so 3+2 seating is suitable.

 

[HH]

You can, hence for their metro routes, SWT refurbished their 455s with 2+2 seating and large standback areas by the doors - which is fine for short journeys. But the 450s and 458s are used on longer journeys, where standing for the complete journey would be less acceptable - so 3+2 seating is suitable.

I don't know that 3+2 seating is suitable for anything any more, with the ever increasing butts of the travelling public. Have you ever tried squeezing into the third seat?

 

[Envy123]

SWT are by all accounts, the best of the 3rd rail franchises by a long way.

My mother found SWT to be wonderful when she visited a friend in Guildford.

Too bad Crossrail 2 is rumoured to take away Waterloo services from the SWT inners. Victoria is less useful for the City than Waterloo...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know that 3+2 seating is suitable for anything any more, with the ever increasing butts of the travelling public. Have you ever tried squeezing into the third seat?

You can't fit 3 average males side by side on 3+2; most blokes' shoulders are wider than the seat.

 

[DarloRich]

You can't fit 3 average males side by side on 3+2; most blokes' shoulders are wider than the seat.

you can - the one in the middle has to lean forward and read the paper

I don't like these seats but cant see any other way to generate the required seating capacity within the infrastructure constraints
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes but it disrupts the carefully crafted refranchising timetable.
It will now clash with ICWC and West Midlands rebids.
It will also delay further improvements on SWT beyond that already agreed.

oh dear! how awful for dft ;- )

 

[infobleep]

You can, hence for their metro routes, SWT refurbished their 455s with 2+2 seating and large standback areas by the doors - which is fine for short journeys. But the 450s and 458s are used on longer journeys, where standing for the complete journey would be less acceptable - so 3+2 seating is suitable.

Standing is less acceptable, yet I see people doing just that when I board the 450 from Guildford and that includes people already standing before the train has even reached Guildford.

 

[59CosG95]

Standing is less acceptable, yet I see people doing just that when I board the 450 from Guildford and that includes people already standing before the train has even reached Guildford.

There've been a fair few times I've caught a 159 from Woking to find it standing-room only as far as Andover...

 

[HH]

New trains are unlikely be specified with 3+2 seating. No-one thinks it works, especially DfT. Judging by Class 800s they'll want something metro-style, even for the long distance commuters.

 

[swt_passenger]

Happy to be proved wrong, although that would probably mean TOCs would change 3+2 to 2+2 but keep the same width seats to allow more standing room - ergo fewer seats!

I recall in the end days of the 442s with SWT, going to a meet the manager session and being repeatedly told by a SWT manager that they had a commitment to the DfT to increase seat capacity, which I read to be the number of seats on a train, and not standing room.

The 5 car 458/5 doesn't provide any more seats than a 4 car 458/0. (To within a handful of seats.)

Which is as you'd expect with a change from 2+3 to 2+2. Therefore the entire capacity increase per train must be achieved by increasing the number of people standing, the number of seats on the route in total is increased because there are to be more trains running in total.

 

[Harlan Cage]

I was never a big fan of Stagecoach due to some of the antics of Souter and Gloag in the past! That said overall I think that the SWT franchise has been a success with some innovative ideas and has actually delivered more capacity. My only gripe is that the timetables of Windsor Line and others are jus the 2 trains an hour timetable which BR has run previously with the additional rush hour trains removed I guess for operational connivence/ capacity constraints.
Living on the FGW mainline inn the Thames Valley i wish SWT ran our suburban services rather than FGW as I am sure it would be far better! When the elecxtrification of the GWML is completed maybe combining the SWT and GW franchise into one mega franchise might well bring benefits and better run service!

HC

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't like these seats but cant see any other way to generate the required seating capacity within the infrastructure constraints

To me the sensible way is to revisit how we provide capacity and accept a bit more short-distance standing instead.

 

[fandroid]

I am a regular SWT train user (from Basingstoke) and find the service to be fine. I don't commute but often travel in the peaks as well as offpeak. 3+2 seating is less than perfect but it does offer a greater chance of a seat for those willing to squeeze in and the absolutely crammed stages of the journey are mostly relatively short (Waterloo to Woking?). I have heard many comments against SWT, but I suspect most of those are from passengers on the inner services (the red trains), which can be absolutely crammed even at weekends. Given that most decisions on extra capacity depend entirely on DFT, SWT have managed in recent years to push through several schemes for longer trains. they take a while to come through, but at least they are on the way.

SWT have been left out of the great train buying spree that DFT have been forced to arrange in order to cover up their hideous delays on Thameslink train purchase and the GW electrification cascade.

However SWT are somewhat cynical in their ticket pricing. The price difference between an 'any permitted' ticket from Basingstoke to London and a 'via Woking' one is so small as to be almost invisible. SWT get all of the latter, but share the former with FGW. Also their ticket machines only offer the 'via Woking' ticket unless you dig very deep into the options. Similarly, their 'Super-Offpeak' returns to London are only fractionally cheaper than Offpeak Returns, but are severely restricted, not allowing return travel in the weekday evening peaks.

 

[jopsuk]

SWT have been left out of the great train buying spree that DFT have been forced to arrange in order to cover up their hideous delays on Thameslink train purchase and the GW electrification cascade.

Well that's because SWT are unaffected entirely by Thameslink. They also benefited from one of the most comprehensive train buying sprees after privatisation- though of course are getting 30 new trains (150 carriages) that are entirely an increase in fleet, after getting a decent number of additional carriages for the 458s and the whole 456 fleet. They're doing VERY well for rolling stock.

 

[Domh245]

Well that's because SWT are unaffected entirely by Thameslink. They also benefited from one of the most comprehensive train buying sprees after privatisation- though of course are getting 30 new trains (150 carriages) that are entirely an increase in fleet, after getting a decent number of additional carriages for the 458s and the whole 456 fleet. They're doing VERY well for rolling stock.

And combined with the 455 retractioning, shouldn't need any new stock until the 455s (and 456s) retire

 

[Morgsie]

Campaigners vow to fight for better Dorset train service ahead of rail shake-up

CAMPAIGNERS say they will continue to fight for a better train service for Dorset ahead of a shake-up of a rail franchise.

It comes after transport group Stagecoach failed to reach agreement with the Government over renewing the South West Trains franchise which runs commuter and mainline services from London Waterloo to the South West including the Weymouth line.

The DfT plans to invite train operating companies to bid for the franchise, which SWT has run since British Rail was privatised in 1996.

It is one of the country's biggest rail franchises, operating more than 1,600 trains a day, serving more than 200 stations and carrying over 200 million passengers a year.

The current contract is due to end in February 2017.

Stagecoach must now compete with rival transport companies when the new contract comes up for tender.

Earlier this year the company agreed a £50 million package of benefits with the government that will see additional seats, more and faster services, and better facilities on the South West Trains network – but there was no pledges of funding for the Weymouth line.

Campaigners have long pushed for faster and more efficient services from Weymouth to London to boost the economy.

Trains between Weymouth and Poole run with fewer carriages and are slower than in other areas due to power restrictions.

Calls were made in Parliament recently by South Dorset Dorset MP Richard Drax for more rail investment in the area to help boost jobs and prosperity.

Mr Drax said yesterday: "Whoever the new franchisee will be we will continue to promote and lobby for a faster train service from Weymouth to London."

Mr Drax said he hoped a 'seaside express' train could run from the capital to Weymouth taking 2 hours, reducing the running time by about 45 minutes.

A transport group has failed to reach agreement with the Government over renewing a major rail franchise which runs services from London Waterloo to the South West.

Stagecoach said the Department for Transport had ended talks over its South West Trains subsidiary - which runs commuter and other services from Waterloo to Surrey, Hampshire, Somerset, Berkshire, Devon, Wiltshire and Dorset.

The DfT plans to invite train operating companies to bid for the franchise, which SWT has run since British Rail was privatised in 1996.

It is one of the country's biggest rail franchises, operating more than 1,600 trains a day, serving more than 200 stations and carrying over 200 million passengers a year.

The company said: ''Stagecoach Group confirms that it has been notified by the Department for Transport that it is ending the discussions with Stagecoach subsidiary, Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited, regarding the direct award of a new rail franchise.

''The current franchise is due to end in February 2017 and, as previously reported, South West Trains had submitted proposals to the DfT as part of previously announced government plans for the direct award of a new franchise to at least April 2019.

''The DfT has now indicated that it plans to invite applicants to tender for a new long-term franchise to commence sometime in 2017.

''In the meantime, the DfT has indicated that it expects to exercise its pre-contracted option to extend the current South West Trains franchise beyond February 2017.

''The option allows the DfT to extend the franchise to no later than August 2017. Stagecoach does not currently expect South West Trains to earn a significant profit during any extension period.''

Stagecoach said its proposals sought to build on the ''extensive improvements'' delivered since 1996, providing ''more benefits for customers, good value for taxpayers and an appropriate return for investors''.

A statement added: ''However, despite extensive negotiations, a significant difference has remained between both parties regarding the financial evaluation of the proposals. As a result, South West Trains has been unable to reach an agreement on a direct award.

''Nevertheless, as the incumbent operator with nearly 20 years' experience in growing and improving one of the most complex and busiest rail franchises in the country, we believe we are in a strong position to submit a powerful and attractive bid for a new South West Trains franchise.

''In the meantime, we will continue to deliver on our commitments to government and customers, including the £50 million package of investment agreed with the DfT earlier this year as part of a Deed of Amendment to the existing franchise.''

Source: Bournemouth Echo

 

[jopsuk]

Prediction: no bid will even remotely suggest slashing 45 minutes off the time to Weymouth

 

[Morgsie]

Prediction: no bid will even remotely suggest slashing 45 minutes off the time to Weymouth

I would like to see the power supply upgraded first

 

[fandroid]

Well that's because SWT are unaffected entirely by Thameslink. They also benefited from one of the most comprehensive train buying sprees after privatisation- though of course are getting 30 new trains (150 carriages) that are entirely an increase in fleet, after getting a decent number of additional carriages for the 458s and the whole 456 fleet. They're doing VERY well for rolling stock.

What I was trying to say is that SWT has effectively done its own thing on increasing train lengths. Southern, for instance, have had DfT falling over themselves to hand out train-buying contracts connected with cascades and stop-gap measures. That was in addition to the original massive slam-door replacement projects that both companies had (and were completed some time ago.)

 

[Goldfish62]

My mother found SWT to be wonderful when she visited a friend in Guildford.

Too bad Crossrail 2 is rumoured to take away Waterloo services from the SWT inners. Victoria is less useful for the City than Waterloo...

It's not rumour - that's what the plans are.

 

[transmanche]

Too bad Crossrail 2 is rumoured to take away Waterloo services from the SWT inners. Victoria is less useful for the City than Waterloo...

Although Tottenham Court Road will give an interchange with Crossrail 1 for Farringdon or Moorgate/Liverpool Street.

 

[Aictos]

Do they really need 8 or 10 car trains between Bournemouth and Weymouth though, are services that busy they need to reduce the number of services splitting at Bournemouth for more longer though trains?

I can't see them upgrading the power supply if the business case isn't strong enough to run longer trains past Bournemouth when surely there are other possible means to improve the service via means of increasing line speeds where possible for one and better use of existing rolling stock after all we hear many times of Southampton locals using 444s when 450s be much better to use.

Generally though I think Stagecoach is a safe pair of hands to run the South Western region although there are places which they could do better IF the infrastructure was provided ie Salisbury to Exeter to be fully double track.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do they really need 8 or 10 car trains between Bournemouth and Weymouth though, are services that busy they need to reduce the number of services splitting at Bournemouth for more longer though trains?

I can't see them upgrading the power supply if the business case isn't strong enough to run longer trains past Bournemouth when surely there are other possible means to improve the service via means of increasing line speeds where possible for one and better use of existing rolling stock after all we hear many times of Southampton locals using 444s when 450s be much better to use.

Generally though I think Stagecoach is a safe pair of hands to run the South Western region although there are places which they could do better IF the infrastructure was provided ie Salisbury to Exeter to be fully double track.

8/10/12 car trains are probably needed at times as far as Poole. Would a full length dual-voltage variant of a class 801 be able to operate west of Poole to Weymouth on the existing power supply (mainly in the summer)?

 

[theironroad]

There's no need for more than a 5 car between poole and Weymouth and I think most people would rather have a 5 car 444 than a 8 car 450 ( which can go Poole to Weymouth)

Trains won't attach or detach at Poole as the curvature of the platforms is too great.

I see Bournemouth largely just cut and pasted the press releases from the dft and stagecoach in their article with a throwaway comment from an mp.

Drax is dreaming if he thinks Weymouth to Waterloo could be a two hour journey without some vast infrastructure upgrades. No doubt he'd want it to stop at wool next to his house as well.

I do agree with him though that the Weymouth to London line is very slow and cutting out some station stops on one hourly service with some sensible line speed upgrades, better pathing and reduced padding in the timetable would shave off some time.

Waterloo, southampton airport, Southampton central, Bournemouth, Poole Dorchester south, Weymouth would be a good start.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Drax is dreaming if he thinks Weymouth to Waterloo could be a two hour journey without some vast infrastructure upgrades. No doubt he'd want it to stop at wool next to his house as well.

If the railway really wanted to do it (I'm sure it doesn't), what best journey time could an IEP make from Paddington to Weymouth via the B&H and Yeovil?
If they want a "seaside express" it might be an attractive option on a summer Saturday.

 

[theironroad]

I'm not sure about timing from paddingron, though have a single line worked by token around maiden Newton wouldn't help.

However, it's not just Weymouth which is the issue here, Poole/bournemouth and Southampton all have a woefully slow service to London and they are two large population conurbations.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There's no need for more than a 5 car between poole and Weymouth and I think most people would rather have a 5 car 444 than a 8 car 450 ( which can go Poole to Weymouth)

Trains won't attach or detach at Poole as the curvature of the platforms is too great.

If the siding nearest the main line (not the carriage sidings) was removed, could the platforms then be extended enough so that 10 car 444s could be split on the straight?

 

[theironroad]

Dont think so. There was a proposal a few years back to move the whole station towards the sidings as part of a property redevelopment, but all seemed to fall through.

Also, the number of attach and detach throughout the day wold be a rostering headache as the train crew depot is at Bournemouth.

 

[450.emu]

I would like to see the power supply upgraded first

They should put in OHLE then

 

[HH]

I'm just going to point out two things that are ineluctable truths:

1. Whoever gets the franchise, 99.99% of the staff will remain the same

2. There will be changes, because DfT feels that it has to justify its existence by making them