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End of the "golden age" of road haulage could create opportunities for rail?

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tbtc

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Oh, it'll take a while to sort out the driver shortage (maybe to wait until long enough until after Brexit so that people can accept the need for economic migrants again?)... but my first point was "what lines would you need to electrify to ensure electric haulage" - for example, to ensure a sufficient switch (from 66s) to electric-hauled freight, we'd need to wire up hundreds of miles... for example, let's say Felixstowe is a good place to start... but that's only a short branch - a lot of trains run to northern England/ midlands via Ely and Peterborough... so we'd need to do that too before we could give up on our 66-addiction... and then also the "Joint" line from Peterborough to Doncaster... and presumably various other bits of route - some yards too... same goes for the "electric spine"... how long's that going to take? would you be electrifying lines on the basis of today's freight flows or the flows in ten years time (given the way that some flows may decline - e.g. would you be surprised if Biomass turns out to be seen as less "green" at some stage?)

How long would it take to fill in the gaps between Felixstowe - Ely - Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster? And Southampton - Oxford - Birmingham? Buxton quarries and Hope cement too? Because that seems like a benchmark for the training of HGV drivers

I hope I'll be forgiven for bumping this thread, but the second story on the BBC news tonight, after Afghanistan of course, is the now-critical shortage of HGV drivers in the UK and the increasingly-dire effects on deliveries. Many responses have been dismissive of the role rail could potentially play in relieving the pressures on road haulage. Rail, we're told, is inflexible and only really suitable for long-haul and bulk flows. Most customers these days are looking for "just-in-time" deliveries with which rail can't compete, but when you can't guarantee a driver for every shift the concept is at best academic.

So hauliers face a "perfect storm" of increased congestion, fuel-price inflation, zero-emission zones, pressure to reduce carbon emissions and the desperate shortage of drivers. If there ever was a "golden age" of road haulage I would suggest it is now well-and-truly over.

I stand by what I said a couple of months ago.

It might take a year to train enough HGV drivers (and to raise the wages of all HGV drivers to the level where you can attract newbies to the industry) - that's going to be several months of empty supermarket shelves being a common sight but how flexible/ urgent do you think that heavy rail can be in response to this? Especially given that the response on here seems to be "we only need to electrify hundreds of miles of single track and order a lot of electric locos"...
 
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8H

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People who run large companies tend to know what's going on. If they didn't they wouldn't be in a job for very long.
If you believe the current economic/social orthodoxy is doing just fine I think that’s another problem ! The way we all do things is going to have to change.
 

Dai Corner

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If you believe the current economic/social orthodoxy is doing just fine I think that’s another problem ! The way we all do things is going to have to change.
Do you think we should have to travel to Rail-connected shopping centres for all our purchases, for example?
 

8H

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Do you think we should have to travel to Rail-connected shopping centres for all our purchases, for example?
No, I think you just said that and then pretended that I did :D what I do say is that the current way motor traffic operates in countries across the developed world is genuinely unsustainable. Rail and other transport modes and other necessary and substantial changes in society will assist the demolition of this era of transport. No change no planet the kids are right on this and the scientific evidence supports them. Solutions to the post HGV times will be found.
 

tbtc

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If you believe the current economic/social orthodoxy is doing just fine I think that’s another problem ! The way we all do things is going to have to change.

the current way motor traffic operates in countries across the developed world is genuinely unsustainable. Rail and other transport modes and other necessary and substantial changes in society will assist the demolition of this era of transport. No change no planet the kids are right on this and the scientific evidence supports them. Solutions to the post HGV times will be found.

Sure, and we should smash the patriarchy and capitalism, but how do you propose to shift large volumes of freight from road to rail in the twelve month (?) window before the lack of HGV drivers is resolved?

This thread seems to be one of a number that we have which are a bit Underpants Gnomes.

Whilst I've not watched the SouthPark episode in question, I know the meme is that their business plan was:

  1. Collect Underpants
  2. ???
  3. Profit

So, whilst I agree with the sentiment on here (it'd be great if there was more rail freight, assuming we can find ways to make it affordable/ simple/ not disrupt existing passenger services too much etc), this thread feels like it's fallen into the old trap of:

  1. Short term problem that I'm wanting to exploit as a justification to change things to get what I want
  2. ???
  3. Long term solution that I've always been in favour of

...and I don't know that this disruption to the number of HGV drivers is going to be the catalyst to give you what you've always wanted. Especially bearing in mind that...

(1) big business like McDonalds/ Tesco will find a way of solving the problem, even if they have to throw some more money at it (a Powells bus driver I had last week was giving up buses to earn more money with lorries, a lad I play five a side with has made the switch from retail to driving a cement truck, there's a few incentives to lure people behind the wheel, but it'll obviously take a while to get enough people fully trained and out there on their own)
(2) part of the distribution problems that we currently have are because of a lack of other workers post-Brexit (e.g. there aren't enough people in fields to pick crops, so even if we had thousands of new HGV drivers tomorrow they wouldn't be able to deliver the food to supermarkets because it's still in the soil - similarly I don't think that any FOC is going to be able to solve this - it's not just fields of course, it's all sorts of low paid jobs where we relied on cheap EU labour and now find it hard to get people to fill those positions)
(3) another big problem is getting stuff into the UK (you can blame the backlog in the Suez Canal, you can blame Covid, personally I put a lot of blame for distribution problems on Brexit, but regardless of your chosen scapegoat, a lot of the problems with getting goods into UK shops/ houses won't be solved by a few more freight trains)

Obviously any step in the right direction is A Good Thing, I'm not expecting to solve every single problem and I shouldn't be damning every suggestion just because it falls short of perfection, but I think that this needs some kind of long term approach rather than opportunistically trying to piggy back onto a short term fluctuation in HGV drivers
 

8H

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Sure, and we should smash the patriarchy and capitalism, but how do you propose to shift large volumes of freight from road to rail in the twelve month (?) window before the lack of HGV drivers is resolved?

This thread seems to be one of a number that we have which are a bit Underpants Gnomes.

Whilst I've not watched the SouthPark episode in question, I know the meme is that their business plan was:

  1. Collect Underpants
  2. ???
  3. Profit

So, whilst I agree with the sentiment on here (it'd be great if there was more rail freight, assuming we can find ways to make it affordable/ simple/ not disrupt existing passenger services too much etc), this thread feels like it's fallen into the old trap of:

  1. Short term problem that I'm wanting to exploit as a justification to change things to get what I want
  2. ???
  3. Long term solution that I've always been in favour of

...and I don't know that this disruption to the number of HGV drivers is going to be the catalyst to give you what you've always wanted. Especially bearing in mind that...

(1) big business like McDonalds/ Tesco will find a way of solving the problem, even if they have to throw some more money at it (a Powells bus driver I had last week was giving up buses to earn more money with lorries, a lad I play five a side with has made the switch from retail to driving a cement truck, there's a few incentives to lure people behind the wheel, but it'll obviously take a while to get enough people fully trained and out there on their own)
(2) part of the distribution problems that we currently have are because of a lack of other workers post-Brexit (e.g. there aren't enough people in fields to pick crops, so even if we had thousands of new HGV drivers tomorrow they wouldn't be able to deliver the food to supermarkets because it's still in the soil - similarly I don't think that any FOC is going to be able to solve this - it's not just fields of course, it's all sorts of low paid jobs where we relied on cheap EU labour and now find it hard to get people to fill those positions)
(3) another big problem is getting stuff into the UK (you can blame the backlog in the Suez Canal, you can blame Covid, personally I put a lot of blame for distribution problems on Brexit, but regardless of your chosen scapegoat, a lot of the problems with getting goods into UK shops/ houses won't be solved by a few more freight trains)

Obviously any step in the right direction is A Good Thing, I'm not expecting to solve every single problem and I shouldn't be damning every suggestion just because it falls short of perfection, but I think that this needs some kind of long term approach rather than opportunistically trying to piggy back onto a short term fluctuation in HGV drivers
Yes it’s a genuinely big and complicated problem requiring action now. As long as we fundamentally accept that I think it gets us on our way to finding solutions. I also agree with your point about separating short term and specific issues from the bigger picture.
 

HSTEd

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Out the only thing that could make any impact in the next twelve months is allow road trains of some type, at least on some roads
 

The Planner

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Lets be honest, all that will happen is that hauliers will be forced into pay rises and that cost will just get passed on down to the consumer. All that may happen in the medium term is that some lorry miles will be reduced by the influx of Intermodal terminals being planned or close to spades in the ground.
 

Annetts key

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(1) big business like McDonalds/ Tesco will find a way of solving the problem, even if they have to throw some more money at it


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(2) part of the distribution problems that we currently have are because of a lack of other workers post-Brexit (e.g. there aren't enough people in fields to pick crops, so even if we had thousands of new HGV drivers tomorrow they wouldn't be able to deliver the food to supermarkets because it's still in the soil - similarly I don't think that any FOC is going to be able to solve this - it's not just fields of course, it's all sorts of low paid jobs where we relied on cheap EU labour and now find it hard to get people to fill those positions)
A lot of the problems are due to there being insufficient ‘seasonal workers’. It does not just affect food crop farming, it also affects flower production, various other seasonal items such as Christmas turkeys as well as the fish processing industry.

The HGV problem is also affecting rubbish and recycling collections. Definitely no rail solution to that!

I’m sure other problems will emerge in the future as well.
 

tbtc

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Yes it’s a genuinely big and complicated problem requiring action now. As long as we fundamentally accept that I think it gets us on our way to finding solutions. I also agree with your point about separating short term and specific issues from the bigger picture.

I'm not meaning to sound unduly negative, it's just that we have threads on here where people try to exploit short term problems to plug the (long term, expensive, complicated) thing that they are always trying to argue for, e.g. "The line through Dawlish will be closed for an hour due to high tides AND THIS IS WHY WE MUST SPEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS ON A DIVERSIONARY ROUTE THROUGH OKEHAMPTON"

We need to be promoting a long term solution to a long term problem, rathe than opportunistically tying it to this short term problem with HGV labour (since the HGV problem will get "solved" before long, which will give some people the impression that there's no need for the investment in rail freight that you obviously want, they'll find it an excuse to dismiss you because you tied your "solution" to a "problem" that other people have solved)

A lot of the problems are due to there being insufficient ‘seasonal workers’. It does not just affect food crop farming, it also affects flower production, various other seasonal items such as Christmas turkeys as well as the fish processing industry

True - this Christmas is going to be a bit bleak, as things stand
 

The Ham

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I'm not meaning to sound unduly negative, it's just that we have threads on here where people try to exploit short term problems to plug the (long term, expensive, complicated) thing that they are always trying to argue for, e.g. "The line through Dawlish will be closed for an hour due to high tides AND THIS IS WHY WE MUST SPEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS ON A DIVERSIONARY ROUTE THROUGH OKEHAMPTON"

We need to be promoting a long term solution to a long term problem, rathe than opportunistically tying it to this short term problem with HGV labour (since the HGV problem will get "solved" before long, which will give some people the impression that there's no need for the investment in rail freight that you obviously want, they'll find it an excuse to dismiss you because you tied your "solution" to a "problem" that other people have solved)

Indeed, and whilst the general lack of working age people (which is likely to continue to fall) will likely force some extra traffic towards rail the overall impact will be fairly limited.
 

py_megapixel

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Quoting in a new speculative thread as I think it merits further discussion.

Also during this shortage of truck drivers, the extra rail capacity could prove super handy for getting our supply chains moving again. Grab some leftover locos (trust me, there are a ton of class 66's) and start moving some freight!
Whilst using rail to move large volumes of freight would be great, the fact there is a huge shortage of HGV drivers still has an impact at either end of the route.

Presumably if some current HGV drivers could be displaced from the long hauls up main corridors - which is what rail freight is good at - then they could provide the 'last mile' transport, which is what rail freight is bad at.
 

furnessvale

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The HGV problem is also affecting rubbish and recycling collections. Definitely no rail solution to that!
The rail solution is that it frees up other drivers to transfer to those non rail possible applications.

However, from what I have seen and heard, councils will have to do a LOT better on the pay front to attract former long distance HGV drivers.
 

Tallguy

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When a I was in Austria a few years ago I saw a couple of trains loaded with HGV trucks heading West at reasonable speed. The UK is a bit restricted for doing that kind of operation here but if those trucks were from Poland or Germany and heading to Spain then sticking a convoy of them on a train makes good sense as they will get their faster with less pollution. There was a carriage for the drivers but would drivers and tractor units be needed? All you need is shunt jockeys to load the trailers on/off at the depots and then hauliers can send a local tractor unit to collect the trailer and drive the last 50 miles or so to the destination. Sounds like a good idea to me…..
 

Irascible

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Can you still drive a 7.5t vehicle on a standard license? that might solve some local manpower issues even if you need more of them.

Long distance by rail is a nice concept ( it frees up more road space too ) but unfortunately not one we've built around, so it's not going to free up many drivers in the short term - and a longer term solution has to compete with simply passing more drivers. If there's simply not enough people at all, then there's more ( expensive ) automation to look at.
 

Jozhua

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Quoting in a new speculative thread as I think it merits further discussion.

Presumably if some current HGV drivers could be displaced from the long hauls up main corridors - which is what rail freight is good at - then they could provide the 'last mile' transport, which is what rail freight is bad at.
Cheers, yeah I think it merits a thread. Basically this truck driver shortage is related to no single issue, it is multi-faceted and therefore multi-solutuion. Various people are blaming it on Brexit, Covid and certainly these are exacerbating factors, but the shortage is europe-wide, and Covid restrictions are generally relaxed for truckers. In fact the issue is also occuring in the states, especially for long haul truckers.

It's hard to attract new employees into an industry that isn't fantastically compensated, has a relatively high cost of entry for getting licences, etc and involves months on the road away from home.

I think rail freight has some key advantages for taking on long distance trucking:
-Long distance jobs tend to be the ones that contribute most to the un-appealing trucking "lifestyle". If truckers could be guaranteed a return to the same bed at night, just doing a couple of 50-mile deliveries a day, then I think that would attract more people in to the industry. Long distance is rail's strength. Trains can be handed off to new drivers every hundred or so miles, with drivers simply travelling up on one train and returning another in the opposite direction and the like.
-Trains require far less staff per unit of goods and rail uses less energy per unit of goods, making it one of the most cost effective methods of transporting goods by land.
-Long distance trucking is the hardest aspect of the industry to decarbonise, due to battery capacity limits, etc that can be relatively easily bypassed with rail electrification - worth noting that even unelectrified rail freight offers lower carbon emissions, although they are overall less effective than electrified fleets.

While I think rail absolutely can increase freight provision if some shifting of timetables takes place, there is generally limited capacity for freight provision on UK railways. HS2 will deliver that extra capacity longer term, but obviously we need solutions earlier than that.

The first step would be to run overnight trains on key corridors in the UK and just make the trains as long as signal loops can handle - truck drivers can drop loads off for the evenings, then they can be shipped to final mile distribution yards by the morning, so they are ready to be sent out to customers. It would involve a level of overnight shift working, but that could be provided by tens/hundreds of train drivers, instead of tens of thousands of truck drivers. As HS2 and freight-oriented upgrades come online, more freight trains can be run in the day with some extra flexibility.

Other infrastructure that needs improving:
-Marshalling/logistics yards.
-Passing loops - counterintuitively, this might be for freight to get past passenger services on regional/rural routes, as they take a long time to get up to speed.
-Electrification - Faster accelerating freight will prove vital for integrating into passenger-oriented service patterns, or diverting around night-time works on infrastructure.


When a I was in Austria a few years ago I saw a couple of trains loaded with HGV trucks heading West at reasonable speed. The UK is a bit restricted for doing that kind of operation here but if those trucks were from Poland or Germany and heading to Spain then sticking a convoy of them on a train makes good sense as they will get their faster with less pollution. There was a carriage for the drivers but would drivers and tractor units be needed? All you need is shunt jockeys to load the trailers on/off at the depots and then hauliers can send a local tractor unit to collect the trailer and drive the last 50 miles or so to the destination. Sounds like a good idea to me…..
Absolutely the idea of last mile delivery by truck is great!

I think the truck trains have merit, but obviously we have to consider our loading gauges in the UK! It definitely strikes as a good idea, as it would have relatively little impact on the existing shipping patterns, but by moving during rest periods, drivers would be able to be significantly more productive.
 

furnessvale

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When a I was in Austria a few years ago I saw a couple of trains loaded with HGV trucks heading West at reasonable speed. The UK is a bit restricted for doing that kind of operation here but if those trucks were from Poland or Germany and heading to Spain then sticking a convoy of them on a train makes good sense as they will get their faster with less pollution. There was a carriage for the drivers but would drivers and tractor units be needed? All you need is shunt jockeys to load the trailers on/off at the depots and then hauliers can send a local tractor unit to collect the trailer and drive the last 50 miles or so to the destination. Sounds like a good idea to me…..
"Rolling Road" services, where the entire HGV plus driver are carried is used on comparatively short trips eg alpine passes. It loses money but is subsidised by governments to reduce congestion and pollution in the Alps.

As soon as you get to longer distances several questions are raised.

1. Do we need to carry the driver. Surely he can be doing other things.

2. Do we need the tractor unit. Extra dead weight that again can be earning money elsewhere.

3. Do we even need the road wheels which are more dead weight, and importantly in the UK setting, eat into valuable loading gauge space.

You come to the inevitable conclusion that the best answer is containers and swap bodies which is what we do. The small weight penalty on road of this system is best addressed by an increased GVW, strictly policed as only for intermodal.
 

Sm5

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Perhaps we need a new ISO standard container.. something the size of the bed of a transit van… bit like an old BR Conflat container, rear & side loading.

And a battery powered unit to pull it.. like a Scareb.

Not all ideas from the past were bad…
it’d be nice to see a battery powered milk float again, for local deliveries.
 

Dr Hoo

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Perhaps we need a new ISO standard container.. something the size of the bed of a transit van… bit like an old BR Conflat container, rear & side loading.

And a battery powered unit to pull it.. like a Scareb.

Not all ideas from the past were bad…
it’d be nice to see a battery powered milk float again, for local deliveries.
I thought that this thread was about HGV drivers. Is there a similar shortage of Transit van drivers?
 

Sm5

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I thought that this thread was about HGV drivers. Is there a similar shortage of Transit van drivers?
let me explain..

HGVs are used to deliver bulk, as 1 HGV driver is equal to several vans.
Several vans is inefficient over long distance as it needs several drivers.

The problem with some HGVs is no local place to breakdown its contents, and so an inefficient use of a HGV driver and trailer manoeuvring around local streets making several local deliveries.. supermarkets and other catering vehicles are notorious for this at their “local” stores on high streets, sometimes two or three times a day.

if the bulk could be broken at source for transit, without the need for any additional drivers, and no need of a HGV driver or trailer at all..

Then youve eliminated two problems.. the lack of HGV and the alternative need for several transit drivers over long distance… but still achieved localised delivery bulk in pre-sorted smaller containers.


e.g instead of Sainsburys driving a HGV around a dozen local stores dropping off a dozen cages per store, spending 30 minutes per drop, a smaller number of containers with those cages inside could be simply deposited for off loading, and collected later By a single tractor.

Same goods, sent from the same sorting centre, just packed and delivered differently…

To make it work is a retractable wheeled container of a size that works on the high street on a transit van or such size, or maybe just a pallet on wheels, that can be roll on roll off at Source and localised destination… a class 319 could be a good rail delivery vehicle for such an enterprise… just needs a scareb to collect them all and deliver locally…hmmm?
 
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Lemmy99uk

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Perhaps we need a new ISO standard container.. something the size of the bed of a transit van… bit like an old BR Conflat container, rear & side loading.

And a battery powered unit to pull it.. like a Scareb.

Not all ideas from the past were bad…
it’d be nice to see a battery powered milk float again, for local deliveries.

Wasn’t the DRS ‘mini-modal’ project meant to address this? I seem to recall that it involved small load containerised traffic that could be unloaded on a station platform.
I’m not sure if any prototypes were built.
 

Railwaysceptic

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. . . . instead of Sainsburys driving a HGV around a dozen local stores dropping off a dozen cages per store, spending 30 minutes per drop, a smaller number of containers with those cages inside could be simply deposited for off loading, and collected later By a single tractor.
Why do you believe that an HGV delivering to a major supermarket has only a small part load for that site? Large supermarkets deal in huge volumes and receive large deliveries. It is only the small "Sainsbury locals" and "Tesco Expresses" etc. that take in small deliveries.
 

Sm5

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Why do you believe that an HGV delivering to a major supermarket has only a small part load for that site? Large supermarkets deal in huge volumes and receive large deliveries. It is only the small "Sainsbury locals" and "Tesco Expresses" etc. that take in small deliveries.
Exactly… theres more of them, than big stores, and due to size limitations, they dont have much storage space. Hence more frequent deliveries.
 

Bald Rick

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We’ve done this before, several times, recently.

The U.K. logistics system simply isn’t configured in a way that could see anything other than some traffic at the margins shift to rail.
 

Jozhua

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Why do you believe that an HGV delivering to a major supermarket has only a small part load for that site? Large supermarkets deal in huge volumes and receive large deliveries. It is only the small "Sainsbury locals" and "Tesco Expresses" etc. that take in small deliveries.
"Railway Sceptic?" - I mean at least you're honest unlike other forum users lol...

I did see a giant truck go to make a delivery at my local Sainsbury local yesterday - it's surprisingly common how many of these businesses send large HGVs into urban areas completely unnecessarily...

It's worth mentioning that HGVs have significant issues manouvering built up areas with on-street parking and lots of squishy pedestrians/cyclists around.
We’ve done this before, several times, recently.

The U.K. logistics system simply isn’t configured in a way that could see anything other than some traffic at the margins shift to rail.
Well, the trucking shortage isn't going to go away - whilst demand continues to outstrip supply for rail freight, I'd think it would make sense to make provision for more of it.
 

furnessvale

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We’ve done this before, several times, recently.

The U.K. logistics system simply isn’t configured in a way that could see anything other than some traffic at the margins shift to rail.
The UK logistic system has configured itself that way. Not that long ago, it was configured around a model involving railway delivery to local depots with final delivery by the likes of Scammell Scarabs.

Whilst I am not suggesting an exact return to the old methods, as things evolve UK logistics can and will change again, especially with a need for CO2 elimination.
 

Railwaysceptic

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"Railway Sceptic?" - I mean at least you're honest unlike other forum users lol...

I did see a giant truck go to make a delivery at my local Sainsbury local yesterday - it's surprisingly common how many of these businesses send large HGVs into urban areas completely unnecessarily...

It's worth mentioning that HGVs have significant issues manouvering built up areas with on-street parking and lots of squishy pedestrians/cyclists around.
Of course I'm honest! :D I am sceptical about the railway's capacity to contribute vastly more to our economy and way of life than it does already but I've been a railway enthusiast since about four years of age.

I'm retired now but I worked for a long time in international freight and am well familiar with the problems of sending large vehicles into built-up areas with narrow streets and tight corners.
 

Bald Rick

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Well, the trucking shortage isn't going to go away - whilst demand continues to outstrip supply for rail freight, I'd think it would make sense to make provision for more of it.

The driver shortage will return to the levels seen last year within a few months. Then the focus will move to some other sector of the economy that is short of staff.
 

HSTEd

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The driver shortage will return to the levels seen last year within a few months. Then the focus will move to some other sector of the economy that is short of staff.

Ofcousre, if the decline of in person retail continues it is likely that will release very large numbers of staff into the labour pool.
 
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